Sebastian Vettel
Discussion
Horace Van Khute said:
He's like Jenson Button but 4x more lucky.
The key difference is that I hardly remember JB making any mistakes whereas all we seem to see is SV making error after error. it's not doing his rep any good and its easy to see why Ferrari ditched him.Despite his lucky timing at RB he is a top driver, just not one as good as 4 titles suggest.
Rat_Fink_67 said:
Muzzer79 said:
I can't believe I'm going to defend him but....
Yes, they took a risk on set up but let's not forget that Vettel was 21 years old and 22 races in to his F1 career.
He took pole and then drove a cracking race.
Whilst I agree he did drive a cracking race, you can't ignore that Bourdais was only narrowly beaten to 3rd on the grid that weekend too. That was a bit of a "perfect storm" grand prix for Torro Rosso, a bit like Hungary '97 was for Arrows. I don't think it's fair to entirely place the outcome squarely on Vettel's shoulders.Yes, they took a risk on set up but let's not forget that Vettel was 21 years old and 22 races in to his F1 career.
He took pole and then drove a cracking race.
My point is that, at 21 and with pretty much a season and a half behind you, it takes more than a hack to win a grand prix in those conditions, in that car.
You mention Bourdais, who also benefited from the car/conditions combo, but he was nearly a second behind Vettel's Q3 time. Sadly, we'll never know how he could have done in the race due to him starting from pitlane.
kiseca said:
It's a team sport. Can't credit the whole win to the driver any more - or less - than you can credit the whole win to the car.
I agree, my main point was to take the Monza '08 result in context. It wasn't necessarily that Vettel was in a world of his own that weekend, the circuit and weather all played in to the hands of the car's strengths that race. If Bourdais hadn't have had to start from the back he may have even been on the podium too. People who slate Vettel and hold Hamilton up as some kind of peerless God don't seem to have an answer to how journeyman Bottas has - apparently - become amazing since driving a Mercedes.
His record prior to Mercedes wasn't mind-blowing. In the two years prior to him joining them his highest results were 2 x 3rds and 4 x 4th. The next year, with Mercedes, he wins 3 races and has 6 x second place finishes. I suppose he just really knuckled down and decided to start winning?
Hamilton is a better all round driver, for sure, than Vettel. But Hamilton was in the wilderness when Vettel was winning consistently in the Red Bull, and even complained about the spectacle of it more than once. We'll likely never know how objectively good either driver is since they'll never be in the same car, but I would confidently say that Vettel would be doing as well as if not better than Bottas, if their places were switched.
I would even go further and say that at least 2 of Vettel's WDCs were actually close, so there was pressure there, the likes of which doesn't seem to really exist now.
I can't see how anyone can reconcile Bottas suddenly being a title contender with the logic that Vettel has or always was a "bad driver" who lucked into his WDCs? It's a glaring contradiction.
His record prior to Mercedes wasn't mind-blowing. In the two years prior to him joining them his highest results were 2 x 3rds and 4 x 4th. The next year, with Mercedes, he wins 3 races and has 6 x second place finishes. I suppose he just really knuckled down and decided to start winning?
Hamilton is a better all round driver, for sure, than Vettel. But Hamilton was in the wilderness when Vettel was winning consistently in the Red Bull, and even complained about the spectacle of it more than once. We'll likely never know how objectively good either driver is since they'll never be in the same car, but I would confidently say that Vettel would be doing as well as if not better than Bottas, if their places were switched.
I would even go further and say that at least 2 of Vettel's WDCs were actually close, so there was pressure there, the likes of which doesn't seem to really exist now.
I can't see how anyone can reconcile Bottas suddenly being a title contender with the logic that Vettel has or always was a "bad driver" who lucked into his WDCs? It's a glaring contradiction.
TheDeuce said:
Seb definitely has shown brilliance that the average driver couldn't replicate imo. Unfortunately, without a car advantage those moments simply aren't enough to offset his lack of composure and cool headedness. He's an outstanding talent, with an outstanding Achilles heel!
<snip>
I wouldn't say he's lacking composure without a car advantage. It's more about a 'team' advantage. I think he has shown plenty of composure when he didn't have a car advantage with RBR in 2012 and first half of 2013. The difference is knowing you have team behind you that won't f<snip>
k up every other race, and having the confidence that stuff that gets worked on in the factory will deliver on track when they get put on the car. IMO, he showed plenty of composure in 2017 when again, Merc had the right concept from the beginning and it was simply a matter of time before the red team cracked in the development war. I would argue that Seb's mistakes are more a consequence of the team/environment than himself.
Durzel said:
People who slate Vettel and hold Hamilton up as some kind of peerless God don't seem to have an answer to how journeyman Bottas has - apparently - become amazing since driving a Mercedes.
His record prior to Mercedes wasn't mind-blowing. In the two years prior to him joining them his highest results were 2 x 3rds and 4 x 4th. The next year, with Mercedes, he wins 3 races and has 6 x second place finishes. I suppose he just really knuckled down and decided to start winning?
Hamilton is a better all round driver, for sure, than Vettel. But Hamilton was in the wilderness when Vettel was winning consistently in the Red Bull, and even complained about the spectacle of it more than once. We'll likely never know how objectively good either driver is since they'll never be in the same car, but I would confidently say that Vettel would be doing as well as if not better than Bottas, if their places were switched.
I would even go further and say that at least 2 of Vettel's WDCs were actually close, so there was pressure there, the likes of which doesn't seem to really exist now.
I can't see how anyone can reconcile Bottas suddenly being a title contender with the logic that Vettel has or always was a "bad driver" who lucked into his WDCs? It's a glaring contradiction.
I don't think Bottas is a WDC material even though he could win it. I rate him below Vettel that's for sure.His record prior to Mercedes wasn't mind-blowing. In the two years prior to him joining them his highest results were 2 x 3rds and 4 x 4th. The next year, with Mercedes, he wins 3 races and has 6 x second place finishes. I suppose he just really knuckled down and decided to start winning?
Hamilton is a better all round driver, for sure, than Vettel. But Hamilton was in the wilderness when Vettel was winning consistently in the Red Bull, and even complained about the spectacle of it more than once. We'll likely never know how objectively good either driver is since they'll never be in the same car, but I would confidently say that Vettel would be doing as well as if not better than Bottas, if their places were switched.
I would even go further and say that at least 2 of Vettel's WDCs were actually close, so there was pressure there, the likes of which doesn't seem to really exist now.
I can't see how anyone can reconcile Bottas suddenly being a title contender with the logic that Vettel has or always was a "bad driver" who lucked into his WDCs? It's a glaring contradiction.
Horace Van Khute said:
I don't think Bottas is a WDC material even though he could win it. I rate him below Vettel that's for sure.
I would too, and that's my point. He's winning races and getting 2nd places pretty consistently. If that's not predominantly due to the car's supremacy then I've got a bridge to sell you. 
Bottas is a good teammate for Hamilton because he's not as good, but he's not useless either. I don't think any driver at that level feels that they are weaker than anyone else, I believe they all feel "there but for the grace of God" when it comes to comparing themselves or their car to Hamilton & Mercedes.
It's a frustrating sport to watch, for me, because of that fact. I know people love the pinnacle of technology aspect to it, and I would agree that it's up to the other teams to rise up to Mercedes level, not for them to be brought down, but at the same time it is a poorer spectacle because of it, for laymen at least.
The "problem" we've got now is that we've got arguably the best driver in easily the best car, and it's been like that for years. People will do all kinds of mental gymnastics to elevate Ferrari and co up to their level, but the reality is everyone else is on the back foot constantly. When you're having to throw the kitchen sink at development to try and catch up, you make mistakes, and things don't work, or set you back. That's not to say that Ferrari haven't been hopelessly incompetent at race strategy on several occasions, but at the same time I think people underesimate the serenity that a team can have when they're cruising, as it feels like Mercedes is.
I'm not trying to take anything away from Mercedes, or Hamilton, because they're both doing the best job they can and should not be held back artificially. I just feel like it's a shame. I would really love to see all of the drivers in equal machinery, just once, to see how they really compare. Alas, that will never happen.
Edited by Durzel on Monday 6th July 12:33
And on the subject of supremacy and serenity, what better example of it is there than DAS? How many other teams would have the luxury of coming up with something like that? They're having to spend all of their time and energy trying to reach parity with the 2019 Merc car, when Merc can just iterate on what is already a proven, tried and tested platform.
In the Ferrari?
LP670 said:
Horace Van Khute said:
I don't think Bottas is a WDC material even though he could win it. I rate him below Vettel that's for sure.
I think at this moment in time Bottas would wipe the floor with VettelDurzel said:
<snip>
The "problem" we've got now is that we've got arguably the best driver in easily the best car, and it's been like that for years. People will do all kinds of mental gymnastics to elevate Ferrari and co up to their level, but the reality is everyone else is on the back foot constantly. When you're having to throw the kitchen sink at development to try and catch up, you make mistakes, and things don't work, or set you back. That's not to say that Ferrari haven't been hopelessly incompetent at race strategy on several occasions, but at the same time I think people underesimate the serenity that a team can have when they're cruising, as it feels like Mercedes is.
I'm not trying to take anything away from Mercedes, or Hamilton, because they're both doing the best job they can and should not be held back artificially. I just feel like it's a shame. I would really love to see all of the drivers in equal machinery, just once, to see how they really compare. Alas, that will never happen.
Surely, you have to agree that 2018 was a great chance for Ferrari that went begging. For me it was the hardest Merc was ever pushed in this hybrid era.The "problem" we've got now is that we've got arguably the best driver in easily the best car, and it's been like that for years. People will do all kinds of mental gymnastics to elevate Ferrari and co up to their level, but the reality is everyone else is on the back foot constantly. When you're having to throw the kitchen sink at development to try and catch up, you make mistakes, and things don't work, or set you back. That's not to say that Ferrari haven't been hopelessly incompetent at race strategy on several occasions, but at the same time I think people underesimate the serenity that a team can have when they're cruising, as it feels like Mercedes is.
I'm not trying to take anything away from Mercedes, or Hamilton, because they're both doing the best job they can and should not be held back artificially. I just feel like it's a shame. I would really love to see all of the drivers in equal machinery, just once, to see how they really compare. Alas, that will never happen.
There were quite a few regulation changes along the way, that to my mind tried to get teams to catch up to Merc, but Merc hit the spot every time. They're simply the most resilient team in F1 history. I can't think of other teams in F1 history that continued their run through such massive regulation changes and kept coming out on top, and I don't think you can put that down to their performance advantage 2014-2016.
Rat_Fink_67 said:
kiseca said:
It's a team sport. Can't credit the whole win to the driver any more - or less - than you can credit the whole win to the car.
I agree, my main point was to take the Monza '08 result in context. It wasn't necessarily that Vettel was in a world of his own that weekend, the circuit and weather all played in to the hands of the car's strengths that race. If Bourdais hadn't have had to start from the back he may have even been on the podium too. Possibly the lowest rated 4 time world champion in my list, but no more or less lucky than any other driver. Then contrast that with his time at Ferrari where he started reasonably well but overall has undoubtedly underperformed and in situations where I agree with those who think that Lewis (and maybe Alonso?) may have bagged a championship in those cars. Of course, we don't know how much work Seb put in to the car in the background to make it a car with a chance at a championship in the first place - if it had been Lewis or Alonso, would the opportunity have existed in the first place.
Impossible to untangle it all, hence when a race gets won, the team wins it, in as much as Brazil won world cups, not just Pele.
Durzel said:
People who slate Vettel and hold Hamilton up as some kind of peerless God don't seem to have an answer to how journeyman Bottas has - apparently - become amazing since driving a Mercedes.
His record prior to Mercedes wasn't mind-blowing. In the two years prior to him joining them his highest results were 2 x 3rds and 4 x 4th. The next year, with Mercedes, he wins 3 races and has 6 x second place finishes. I suppose he just really knuckled down and decided to start winning?
Hamilton is a better all round driver, for sure, than Vettel. But Hamilton was in the wilderness when Vettel was winning consistently in the Red Bull, and even complained about the spectacle of it more than once. We'll likely never know how objectively good either driver is since they'll never be in the same car, but I would confidently say that Vettel would be doing as well as if not better than Bottas, if their places were switched.
I would even go further and say that at least 2 of Vettel's WDCs were actually close, so there was pressure there, the likes of which doesn't seem to really exist now.
I can't see how anyone can reconcile Bottas suddenly being a title contender with the logic that Vettel has or always was a "bad driver" who lucked into his WDCs? It's a glaring contradiction.
Not sure the premise behind this is correct. I remember Bottas as being very impressive and often talked about at Williams, at least at first, and then being a bit underwhelming when he made it into Mercedes and could be directly compared to Hamilton.His record prior to Mercedes wasn't mind-blowing. In the two years prior to him joining them his highest results were 2 x 3rds and 4 x 4th. The next year, with Mercedes, he wins 3 races and has 6 x second place finishes. I suppose he just really knuckled down and decided to start winning?
Hamilton is a better all round driver, for sure, than Vettel. But Hamilton was in the wilderness when Vettel was winning consistently in the Red Bull, and even complained about the spectacle of it more than once. We'll likely never know how objectively good either driver is since they'll never be in the same car, but I would confidently say that Vettel would be doing as well as if not better than Bottas, if their places were switched.
I would even go further and say that at least 2 of Vettel's WDCs were actually close, so there was pressure there, the likes of which doesn't seem to really exist now.
I can't see how anyone can reconcile Bottas suddenly being a title contender with the logic that Vettel has or always was a "bad driver" who lucked into his WDCs? It's a glaring contradiction.
And as for his improved results, it's very clear that the 6x world championship winning Mercs (3 driver and 3 constructor championships) at the time were better cars than the Williams, which if I recall correctly managed a single race win in the same period. I don't see any mystery there unless you try to create one to support the rest of your argument. I agree that Vettel would be faster than Bottas in a Merc, however possibly not as consistent given his recent form at Ferrari.
Edited by kiseca on Monday 6th July 14:27
Durzel said:
I would too, and that's my point. He's winning races and getting 2nd places pretty consistently. If that's not predominantly due to the car's supremacy then I've got a bridge to sell you.
Bottas is a good teammate for Hamilton because he's not as good, but he's not useless either. I don't think any driver at that level feels that they are weaker than anyone else, I believe they all feel "there but for the grace of God" when it comes to comparing themselves or their car to Hamilton & Mercedes.
It's a frustrating sport to watch, for me, because of that fact. I know people love the pinnacle of technology aspect to it, and I would agree that it's up to the other teams to rise up to Mercedes level, not for them to be brought down, but at the same time it is a poorer spectacle because of it, for laymen at least.
The "problem" we've got now is that we've got arguably the best driver in easily the best car, and it's been like that for years. People will do all kinds of mental gymnastics to elevate Ferrari and co up to their level, but the reality is everyone else is on the back foot constantly. When you're having to throw the kitchen sink at development to try and catch up, you make mistakes, and things don't work, or set you back. That's not to say that Ferrari haven't been hopelessly incompetent at race strategy on several occasions, but at the same time I think people underesimate the serenity that a team can have when they're cruising, as it feels like Mercedes is.
I'm not trying to take anything away from Mercedes, or Hamilton, because they're both doing the best job they can and should not be held back artificially. I just feel like it's a shame. I would really love to see all of the drivers in equal machinery, just once, to see how they really compare. Alas, that will never happen.
At the end of the day... The best team is supposed to win. The only reason we started GP racing in the first place was to identify the best team.Bottas is a good teammate for Hamilton because he's not as good, but he's not useless either. I don't think any driver at that level feels that they are weaker than anyone else, I believe they all feel "there but for the grace of God" when it comes to comparing themselves or their car to Hamilton & Mercedes.
It's a frustrating sport to watch, for me, because of that fact. I know people love the pinnacle of technology aspect to it, and I would agree that it's up to the other teams to rise up to Mercedes level, not for them to be brought down, but at the same time it is a poorer spectacle because of it, for laymen at least.
The "problem" we've got now is that we've got arguably the best driver in easily the best car, and it's been like that for years. People will do all kinds of mental gymnastics to elevate Ferrari and co up to their level, but the reality is everyone else is on the back foot constantly. When you're having to throw the kitchen sink at development to try and catch up, you make mistakes, and things don't work, or set you back. That's not to say that Ferrari haven't been hopelessly incompetent at race strategy on several occasions, but at the same time I think people underesimate the serenity that a team can have when they're cruising, as it feels like Mercedes is.
I'm not trying to take anything away from Mercedes, or Hamilton, because they're both doing the best job they can and should not be held back artificially. I just feel like it's a shame. I would really love to see all of the drivers in equal machinery, just once, to see how they really compare. Alas, that will never happen.
Edited by Durzel on Monday 6th July 12:33
The closest we ever got to seeing F1 drivers in the same machinery, same track was bizarrely old Top Gear, which at the height of its popularity had endless F1 drivers driving the same reasonably priced car
TheDeuce said:
The closest we ever got to seeing F1 drivers in the same machinery, same track was bizarrely old Top Gear, which at the height of its popularity had endless F1 drivers driving the same reasonably priced car
From memory, Vettel was very competitive on that, asking whether everything on the car was the same, same amount of petrol, same tyre pressure, then asked if he could fold in the mirrors for aero 
ajprice said:
TheDeuce said:
The closest we ever got to seeing F1 drivers in the same machinery, same track was bizarrely old Top Gear, which at the height of its popularity had endless F1 drivers driving the same reasonably priced car
From memory, Vettel was very competitive on that, asking whether everything on the car was the same, same amount of petrol, same tyre pressure, then asked if he could fold in the mirrors for aero 
Muzzer79 said:
Rosberg had 9 wins in 2016, along with 5 second places. That doesn't scream lucky WDC to me.
From a Hamilton perspective, it suits to say that if his engine hadn't blown he would have achieved this or that but car failures, etc are part and parcel of F1.
Would you say, for example, that Jacques Villeneuve was a lucky WDC in 1997 because if Damon Hill's hydraulics hadn't failed in Hungary then he wouldn't have won and got the points he needed to win the title?
Or Mika Hakkinen was lucky in 1999 because Schumacher broke his leg?
Unless my memory has failed, Damon left Williams before the 1997 season, the reigning world champion being replaced by Frentzen.From a Hamilton perspective, it suits to say that if his engine hadn't blown he would have achieved this or that but car failures, etc are part and parcel of F1.
Would you say, for example, that Jacques Villeneuve was a lucky WDC in 1997 because if Damon Hill's hydraulics hadn't failed in Hungary then he wouldn't have won and got the points he needed to win the title?
Or Mika Hakkinen was lucky in 1999 because Schumacher broke his leg?
Norfolkit said:
Muzzer79 said:
Rosberg had 9 wins in 2016, along with 5 second places. That doesn't scream lucky WDC to me.
From a Hamilton perspective, it suits to say that if his engine hadn't blown he would have achieved this or that but car failures, etc are part and parcel of F1.
Would you say, for example, that Jacques Villeneuve was a lucky WDC in 1997 because if Damon Hill's hydraulics hadn't failed in Hungary then he wouldn't have won and got the points he needed to win the title?
Or Mika Hakkinen was lucky in 1999 because Schumacher broke his leg?
Unless my memory has failed, Damon left Williams before the 1997 season, the reigning world champion being replaced by Frentzen.From a Hamilton perspective, it suits to say that if his engine hadn't blown he would have achieved this or that but car failures, etc are part and parcel of F1.
Would you say, for example, that Jacques Villeneuve was a lucky WDC in 1997 because if Damon Hill's hydraulics hadn't failed in Hungary then he wouldn't have won and got the points he needed to win the title?
Or Mika Hakkinen was lucky in 1999 because Schumacher broke his leg?
One of Damon's best drives (and yes, it was a perfect storm for the Arrows, which wasn't really anywhere all season, and its Bridgestone tyres)... and the fact that Damon always seemed to go well at Hungary. He did really seem to click with that track, a bit like Berger and Hockenheim, actually.
On the question; if you win or lose a championship on the basis of one specific event at one specific race, that is entirely out your control, I think that's possibly the definition of luck.
The nature of a championship over a number of rounds should mean neither you nor your competitors are in a position at the end to win it due to luck alone, however a single piece of luck can determine an outcome one way or the other. Those are the fine margins that can determine the winner where two or more have performed at an equal level throughout.
The nature of a championship over a number of rounds should mean neither you nor your competitors are in a position at the end to win it due to luck alone, however a single piece of luck can determine an outcome one way or the other. Those are the fine margins that can determine the winner where two or more have performed at an equal level throughout.
Horace Van Khute said:
Muzzer79 said:
Horace Van Khute said:
vdn said:
Seb really fading away in front of our very eyes. Shame.
Shame? Exposing a hack is a joy to watch. Whilst looking for some funny pictures to use here as a meme I came across this. Must be dating way back since it mentions 3 WDC's, already back then people knew the name of the game.
However, you cannot take those titles away from him, same as you can't take Schumacher's from him.
Mark Webber was in the same car and I don't recall him dominating so significantly.
I think the issue is in his head rather than his ability. You don't win in Monza like he did in 2008 without ability.
Nobody is going to take away anything from Vettel, he already did it himself by showing how incapable he is in a car that isn't 110%. He's like Jenson Button but 4x more lucky.
An even smaller proportion the become F1 drivers.
A smaller proportion still become winners.
To become a 1-time champion is a rare thing.
To become a multiple champion rarer still.
I'm glad you know so much about F1. Tell me, how do you rate the several hundred GP drivers over the last century to have never made it onto a podium? Are they crap drivers?
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