Sebastian Vettel

[thegreenhell]

Astonishing amount of prejudiced BS in this thread.

Anyway, Vettel to replace Perez next year?... https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-aston-ma...

[jjones]

It's a month old but google not showing it has been posted, apologies if it has. Kinda sad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fN5fkk-rMA&t=...

[HustleRussell]

Muzzer79 said:

TheDeuce said:

LaurasOtherHalf said:

It's an interesting point about Gasly-was he any further off VER than ALB is now? My memory is he wasn't that much slower-a couple of tenths here and there but had some shockers where he was miles off or just had a horrible race.

1.2 seconds a lap on Sunday in the first stint was awful. So far his best finish is 4th with an average of 5th or 6th, in the same time Max has had 4 podiums and a win.

Gasly had a best of 4th as well in 2019 in the Red Bull, a lot more 5th, 6th and 8th but did get a podium in the Toro Rosso.

I reckon they're about even looking at bare results, not always the best indicator I know but I wouldn't like to say one was better than the other without way more research on lap times.

I'd say the difference that the results mask, is that Gasly got lesser results than he should have done by under driving the car. Albon gets lesser results because he makes mistakes or pushes at the wrong times, and wipes out what he had gained by actually driving the car very well for the most part.

One driver is a driver at their limit. The other needs tidying up a bit and I suspect we will see the points rise to match the talent.

This.

It’s easier to tame a driver at the limit than to get a driver to the limit.

Albon is consistently best of the rest. Gasly was consistently being beaten in races by mclarens, racing points, etc.

AA just needs a little more time. He very much could have won the first race had Hamilton not had him off. He was a little naive and impatient for his part, but at least he was there in the position, having a go.

Interesting fact, this time next week Alex Albon will have had exactly the same number of chances in the Red Bull as Pierre Gasly had.

Albon has gone better overall but last weekend’s performance was quite reminiscent of Gasly.

Seems only Verstappen has the key to unlock the fussy Red Bull’s performance.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

Muzzer79 said:

TheDeuce said:

LaurasOtherHalf said:

It's an interesting point about Gasly-was he any further off VER than ALB is now? My memory is he wasn't that much slower-a couple of tenths here and there but had some shockers where he was miles off or just had a horrible race.

1.2 seconds a lap on Sunday in the first stint was awful. So far his best finish is 4th with an average of 5th or 6th, in the same time Max has had 4 podiums and a win.

Gasly had a best of 4th as well in 2019 in the Red Bull, a lot more 5th, 6th and 8th but did get a podium in the Toro Rosso.

I reckon they're about even looking at bare results, not always the best indicator I know but I wouldn't like to say one was better than the other without way more research on lap times.

I'd say the difference that the results mask, is that Gasly got lesser results than he should have done by under driving the car. Albon gets lesser results because he makes mistakes or pushes at the wrong times, and wipes out what he had gained by actually driving the car very well for the most part.

One driver is a driver at their limit. The other needs tidying up a bit and I suspect we will see the points rise to match the talent.

This.

It’s easier to tame a driver at the limit than to get a driver to the limit.

Albon is consistently best of the rest. Gasly was consistently being beaten in races by mclarens, racing points, etc.

AA just needs a little more time. He very much could have won the first race had Hamilton not had him off. He was a little naive and impatient for his part, but at least he was there in the position, having a go.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Albon was 1.2 seconds a lap down on Max in the first stint on Sunday and couldn't rectify it. Max is great but I don't know how that equates with Albon being a fast driver?

[TheDeuce]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Albon was 1.2 seconds a lap down on Max in the first stint on Sunday and couldn't rectify it. Max is great but I don't know how that equates with Albon being a fast driver?

That's true. I can only speak for myself however when I say that my overall impression of both Albon and Gasly, is that Albon is generally quicker. PErhaps there was another factor at play on Sunday or perhaps he's struggling with setup this year... Perhaps he simply doesn't take to a section of the track?

Whatever it is, if I had to make a snap decision between the two based on what we have seen, I would pick Albon. Would you?

[Hazmat1]

Vettel, “I want a Mercedes seat.. “
Toto, “nope, go have a chat with my Canadian chum... “

With cars basically frozen next year if FI get through copy gate, then it’s gonna be a pretty safe fast bet

[glazbagun]

When Seb left RB, didn't he use a performance clause in his contract as a get out?

[LaurasOtherHalf]

TheDeuce said:

Whatever it is, if I had to make a snap decision between the two based on what we have seen, I would pick Albon. Would you?

I’d take Gasly. F1 is littered with lower formula champions who don’t make it but then so is the red bull driver program

Albon hasn’t had a run of races long enough to be put under the Marko pressure but we’ll see what happens when he is, he was so well thought of before RIC left they’d bombed him off to FE didn’t they?

So I’d take Gasly on past results but if past results count, Vettel kind of trumps them all doesn’t he?

Max and Seb in the big team, Alex and Pierre in the Jnr. I’d be happy with that.

[TheDeuce]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

I’d take Gasly. F1 is littered with lower formula champions who don’t make it but then so is the red bull driver program

Albon hasn’t had a run of races long enough to be put under the Marko pressure but we’ll see what happens when he is, he was so well thought of before RIC left they’d bombed him off to FE didn’t they?

So I’d take Gasly on past results but if past results count, Vettel kind of trumps them all doesn’t he?

Max and Seb in the big team, Alex and Pierre in the Jnr. I’d be happy with that.

As a viewer I'd be very happy with that! As Horner... I think i'd have a few issues! Or maybe not... RB is all about headlines, not outright winning - maybe sticking two bound to fall out and crash drivers together might get the most headlines?

Back to Albon, he's run as many races in the top car as Gasly did - and he was stronger imo than Gasly when he stepped in last year. The Seb comparison on results isn't a factor for me, as I already said, it's about the potential behind the results - not the results that... result. I think Gasly showed his upper limit, Albon has shown he needs tweaking to achieve his potential upper limit. Whether he will ever be suitably 'tweaked' or allowed enough time remains to be seen. The swapping of talent at RB is endless and brutal - so far as I can work out you need to be a prodigious talent in order to be interesting enough for RB to not see it as more interesting to dump you for someone else... Again, all because headlines.

RB mission statement = make headlines with the words 'Red Bull' in them. If they can do that by winning that's lovely, it's a bonus. If that's not on the cards they'll be happy to do it by having driver battles, making outrageous claims about competitors, contradicting themselves, sacking and hiring.. whatever. One time Max punched a French guy off the scales, that surely lead to as many headlines in the press as an RB win!

EDIT: having said all that... Yes, I can see them at least considering a Seb return. If Albon can catch up and be a fantastic points scooping number two he's safe. If not, for headlines sake.. Seb and Max would make a lot of sense. It would be the one of if not the most exciting stories to come of next season, because it would be guaranteed carnage and drama.

Edited by TheDeuce on Tuesday 14th July 23:13

Edited by TheDeuce on Tuesday 14th July 23:14

[Teddy Lop]

Still waiting on you Seb afficinados to elucidate on how two x favoured drivers in a team known to focus on one, and with quite different car behaviour preferences, is going to work.

Is there a better mansplanation for the massive difference in gasleys pace inside/outside the red bull besides that they just didn't really give a st?

[TheDeuce]

Teddy Lop said:

Still waiting on you Seb afficinados to elucidate on how two x favoured drivers in a team known to focus on one, and with quite different car behaviour preferences, is going to work.

Is there a better mansplanation for the massive difference in gasleys pace inside/outside the red bull besides that they just didn't really give a st?

I did give a view on that few posts back - the full sized snooker table vs pub pool table anology.

As for how two top drivers at RB could work.. We've already seen it with Max and DR - the way it worked was to sell the bromance story and make endless Max & DR videos whilst both driver hauled respectable points one way or another. RB got their drama and headlines.

I doubt the Seb & Max story would be quite so successful in terms of points haul, but in terms of fizzy drink selling headlines they could make it work I think. They don't need the best driver pairing, although if they happened upon it I'm sure they'd be happy. Their basic requirement is an interesting driver pairing that gets the job done at least well enough to not be seen as losers in the sport. Max & Seb would achieve that.

[Muzzer79]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

Muzzer79 said:

TheDeuce said:

LaurasOtherHalf said:

It's an interesting point about Gasly-was he any further off VER than ALB is now? My memory is he wasn't that much slower-a couple of tenths here and there but had some shockers where he was miles off or just had a horrible race.

1.2 seconds a lap on Sunday in the first stint was awful. So far his best finish is 4th with an average of 5th or 6th, in the same time Max has had 4 podiums and a win.

Gasly had a best of 4th as well in 2019 in the Red Bull, a lot more 5th, 6th and 8th but did get a podium in the Toro Rosso.

I reckon they're about even looking at bare results, not always the best indicator I know but I wouldn't like to say one was better than the other without way more research on lap times.

I'd say the difference that the results mask, is that Gasly got lesser results than he should have done by under driving the car. Albon gets lesser results because he makes mistakes or pushes at the wrong times, and wipes out what he had gained by actually driving the car very well for the most part.

One driver is a driver at their limit. The other needs tidying up a bit and I suspect we will see the points rise to match the talent.

This.

It’s easier to tame a driver at the limit than to get a driver to the limit.

Albon is consistently best of the rest. Gasly was consistently being beaten in races by mclarens, racing points, etc.

AA just needs a little more time. He very much could have won the first race had Hamilton not had him off. He was a little naive and impatient for his part, but at least he was there in the position, having a go.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Albon was 1.2 seconds a lap down on Max in the first stint on Sunday and couldn't rectify it. Max is great but I don't know how that equates with Albon being a fast driver?

You’re looking at one race, purely on timing.

Since joining the main team, he’s never finished lower than 6th, apart from Brazil where Hamilton took him out when he should have had a podium and Austria this year, when the car failed (and Hamilton kind-of took him out)

That’s a better record than Gasly managed.

Max is doing better with the car but he’s an alien. Alex is doing just fine.

Don’t forget, Red Bull don’t want him to be as fast as Max. They want him to ideally finish one place behind him. He’ll get there.

[glazbagun]

Muzzer79 said:

You’re looking at one race, purely on timing.

Since joining the main team, he’s never finished lower than 6th, apart from Brazil where Hamilton took him out when he should have had a podium and Austria this year, when the car failed (and Hamilton kind-of took him out)

That’s a better record than Gasly managed.

Max is doing better with the car but he’s an alien. Alex is doing just fine.

Don’t forget, Red Bull don’t want him to be as fast as Max. They want him to ideally finish one place behind him. He’ll get there.

Additionally, Max took a lot of heat in the start of 2018 for his crashes (before Vettel started screwing up and grabbing the spotlight) and the team backed up his agression. Albon has screwed up/been unlucky when challenging for podiums, but Gasly never even got the chance to be punted out of third place.

[TheDeuce]

In addition to my other posts on the Seb to RB theory.. I should also say that whilst it makes a great deal of sense in some ways... It probably makes more sense that if he returns, It'll be to tracing point. The powers that be clearly want to relaunch that brand with AM next year with some spectacle. Also it's a team which could use a mechanically minded driver to support the engineering effort.

[anonymous-user]

How many times does it have to be said. Drivers dont design the cars, it's all data driven.

[anonymous-user]

jsf said:

How many times does it have to be said. Drivers dont design the cars, it's all data driven.

If Seb wants to influence the 2021 RP he should be picking up the phone to James Allison now.

[TheDeuce]

RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:

jsf said:

How many times does it have to be said. Drivers dont design the cars, it's all data driven.

If Seb wants to influence the 2021 RP he should be picking up the phone to James Allison now.

There is such a thing as in season development and refining of traits of the cars basic design.

I would have thought that in general a more experienced driver can be more concise about what they feel could improve the car for them in terms of setup too.

[Dr Z]

KevinCamaroSS said:

HustleRussell said:

Short memory! Vettel was pretty good under pressure during his Red Bull years...

What pressure was that? His car was more than 1 second/lap faster than any others, his team-mate was generally not allowed to compete. The one year he did have a competing team-mate he blew apart (against Ricciardo).

Only two men have ever driven the RB6 through to RB9 in competition, in period. How do you figure that those cars were more than 1sec per lap faster than the competition?

[kiseca]

TheDeuce said:

LaurasOtherHalf said:

It's an interesting point about Gasly-was he any further off VER than ALB is now? My memory is he wasn't that much slower-a couple of tenths here and there but had some shockers where he was miles off or just had a horrible race.

1.2 seconds a lap on Sunday in the first stint was awful. So far his best finish is 4th with an average of 5th or 6th, in the same time Max has had 4 podiums and a win.

Gasly had a best of 4th as well in 2019 in the Red Bull, a lot more 5th, 6th and 8th but did get a podium in the Toro Rosso.

I reckon they're about even looking at bare results, not always the best indicator I know but I wouldn't like to say one was better than the other without way more research on lap times.

I'd say the difference that the results mask, is that Gasly got lesser results than he should have done by under driving the car. Albon gets lesser results because he makes mistakes or pushes at the wrong times, and wipes out what he had gained by actually driving the car very well for the most part.

One driver is a driver at their limit. The other needs tidying up a bit and I suspect we will see the points rise to match the talent.

I agree that Albon hasn't had the best start to this year but he was in contention for 1 win out of two races, and last season, in the races he was paired with Max, Albon had scored more points than Max had in the seven races leading up to Max's win in Brazil (68 points for Albon vs 54 for Max, with Max having two DNFs in that period).

Gasly got 61 points in 12 races in a Red Bull, while Albon managed 76 points from just 9 races. In those same 9 races, Max ultimately turned the tables with a win and a second to get 97 points. So while Albon was a consistent points scorer in the car, Max was less so, however he was ultimately more effective by getting big scoring podiums and wins - something neither Albon nor Gasly ever looked likely to do. No surprise there.

However, turn the tables on the two swapped drivers and it's an interesting comparison too.
Albon did a better job than Gasly in the Red Bull, scoring more points in fewer races. However, in Torro Rosso, the tables are turned. Gasly scored 32 points in 9 races, incl. a second place in Brazil, vs. Albon's 16 points from 12.

[neverlifted]

Albon appears to have been generally helped by safety cars etc. Race pace seems to be about 0.5s per lap off Verstappen, which probably isn't good enough.