Sebastian Vettel

[Oilchange]

Yep fair play but the blokes still a .

[Siao]

HustleRussell said:

Oilchange said:

Whatever but it was the knock on effect of two tyre failures that gave him a podium

The knock-on effects which, due to the pit lane closure during the SC and the later red flag, affected everybody equally?

It’s fine that you don’t like Vettel but coming 2nd on a grid with 16 finishers in a car which arguably too slow to reach Q3 is an achievement in my sport.

Absolutely agreed. Personal dislike aside (and why should it affect judging his driving anyway?), it was a great drive.

[kiseca]

Oilchange said:

Whatever but it was the knock on effect of two tyre failures that gave him a podium

He didn't get the podium because of two punctures. He got it because Hamilton, driving under the exact same circumstances as Vettel was, hit some button on his steering, all his own work, which put him out of contention.

A burst tyre didn't make Hamilton hit that button.

[Oilchange]

Quite right but it was a knock on effect. Had those two tyres not burst would he be on the podium? I don’t think so

[oyster]

paulguitar said:

snotrag said:

One of these fellows is a 4 times world champion. Its not Mark Webber.

Schumacher would have done it. Prost would have done it. Hamilton would have done it.

Hamilton would certainly not have done that, I doubt Prost would have either. Schumacher definitely would have.

I think they would all do it.
Hamilton blatantly ignored team orders in Abu Dhabi 2016.

Not just champions, I think all F1 drivers would do it.

[Muzzer79]

oyster said:

paulguitar said:

snotrag said:

One of these fellows is a 4 times world champion. Its not Mark Webber.

Schumacher would have done it. Prost would have done it. Hamilton would have done it.

Hamilton would certainly not have done that, I doubt Prost would have either. Schumacher definitely would have.

I think they would all do it.
Hamilton blatantly ignored team orders in Abu Dhabi 2016.

Not just champions, I think all F1 drivers would do it.

Not quite true because we've seen drivers follow orders to hold station in the past, more often than we've seen them defying orders. Ergo, not all of them would have done what Vettel did.

David Coulthard springs to mind - he even went a stage further than not trying to pass his team mate and gave a race win up to move over for his team mate under team orders at McLaren. As did Rubens Barrichello (famously, in Austria)

The drivers who have done and would defy orders are the ones who know they'd get away with it - Vettel, Schumacher, Hamilton, Alonso, Senna, etc.

[kiseca]

Oilchange said:

Quite right but it was a knock on effect. Had those two tyres not burst would he be on the podium? I don’t think so

Nobody finished where they did entirely of their own accord. Every driver had outside factors, outside of their control, that had an influence on where they finished. Bottas is in a car that's difficult to get the tyres switched on. Sometimes he manages, this time he didn't. Lewis was in second place on the restart, not in first, partly because someone messed up his pitstop so he came out behind Sergio. Sergio kept second place despite his team also making a slow pistop.

Russell wasn't there for Vettel to have to beat because someone built him a crap car. Mazepin wasn't challenging anyone because he slept through a few vital lessons at the Jim Russell Racing School. Ricciardo (and others) screwed up his qualifying, which screwed up other drivers qualifying runs, which affected the starting order. Norris had a penalty because of some hesitation and misunderstanding about whether to peel into the pits or not.

Noone finished the race where they did entirely on their own merit. What seemed clear to me though, was that Vettel made no apparent mistakes in the race, in a car that I don't expect to see regularly on the podium this year, and got a podium because while others fell, he didn't. He has his moments of drama but on this Sunday, I don't think any other driver would have got a better result in that car. For me, he and Sergio were drivers of the day. Verstappen didn't put a foot wrong either, come to think of it.

Like him or hate him as a personality, or even as a driver in general, I find it hard to see a viewpoint where he didn't do one of the best jobs out of all the drivers in this race.

Oh, and there's nothing to say that Lewis hit that switch because he was on a starting grid. He managed not to hit it when the race originally started. He managed not to hit it on every lap up to that point. He said he hit it when Sergio moved towards him. There's no way of knowing in those last two laps without the restart whether he'd have knocked the switch or not. Either it's always been there and it's a real freak event for him to hit it because he doesn't seem to struggle generally with race starts, or his wheel has changed, creating a new hazard (this switch) and there's a chance he could hit it at any time around the lap. Or it's something that's part of his moving to grid procedure and he's done it a hundred times before but this time screwed up.

The restart was the same for everyone, including Seb. That was the condition of the race. It's a common denominator. It gave all the drivers an opportunity to screw up in some way that might have been different from if they were on a racing lap or behind a safety car, but only one driver took that opportunity. Seb, and the others, declined.

Edited by kiseca on Tuesday 8th June 16:44

[Siao]

Muzzer79 said:

Not quite true because we've seen drivers follow orders to hold station in the past, more often than we've seen them defying orders. Ergo, not all of them would have done what Vettel did.

David Coulthard springs to mind - he even went a stage further than not trying to pass his team mate and gave a race win up to move over for his team mate under team orders at McLaren. As did Rubens Barrichello (famously, in Austria)

The drivers who have done and would defy orders are the ones who know they'd get away with it - Vettel, Schumacher, Hamilton, Alonso, Senna, etc.

Ok, just for the sake of it, we do know about Vettel and Hamilton disobeying orders, but can you help with which orders did MSC, Alo and Senna ignore? Any examples? I honestly can't recall

[kiseca]

Siao said:

Ok, just for the sake of it, we do know about Vettel and Hamilton disobeying orders, but can you help with which orders did MSC, Alo and Senna ignore? Any examples? I honestly can't recall

Senna ignored his own suggestion that the two McLaren drivers didn't fight for position in the first lap at Imola, 1988 or 1989. Or to be precise, he obeyed it on the original start when he got ahead, but ignored it on the restart where Prost got ahead of him.

Basically, Senna said the drivers hold station on the first lap, Prost said OK, Prost got the better start, didn't defend into Tosa, Senna overtook him.

Schumacher was never in a position where he'd be ordered to move over for a team mate, from what I can recall. Unless it happened in year 1 with Piquet or something. From then on he gave the orders

I can't think of any for Alonso, but he did overtake his team mate in the freaking pitlane which is about as audacious and ruthless a put-down of one's team mate that I've ever seen and leaves me in no doubt that if the opportunity ever came up, he'd ignore a multi-21 order if he was the "1" in that instruction.

[thegreenhell]

kiseca said:

Senna ignored his own suggestion that the two McLaren drivers didn't fight for position in the first lap at Imola, 1988 or 1989. Or to be precise, he obeyed it on the original start when he got ahead, but ignored it on the restart where Prost got ahead of him.

Basically, Senna said the drivers hold station on the first lap, Prost said OK, Prost got the better start, didn't defend into Tosa, Senna overtook him.

Schumacher was never in a position where he'd be ordered to move over for a team mate, from what I can recall. Unless it happened in year 1 with Piquet or something. From then on he gave the orders

I can't think of any for Alonso, but he did overtake his team mate in the freaking pitlane which is about as audacious and ruthless a put-down of one's team mate that I've ever seen and leaves me in no doubt that if the opportunity ever came up, he'd ignore a multi-21 order if he was the "1" in that instruction.

Senna later argued that the second start was a new race, and therefore the previous agreement was no longer in effect.

Schumacher moved over for Irvine to win in Malaysia in '99, on his return after breaking his leg earlier in the season, when Irvine was in contention for the WDC.

[kiseca]

thegreenhell said:

kiseca said:

Senna ignored his own suggestion that the two McLaren drivers didn't fight for position in the first lap at Imola, 1988 or 1989. Or to be precise, he obeyed it on the original start when he got ahead, but ignored it on the restart where Prost got ahead of him.

Basically, Senna said the drivers hold station on the first lap, Prost said OK, Prost got the better start, didn't defend into Tosa, Senna overtook him.

Schumacher was never in a position where he'd be ordered to move over for a team mate, from what I can recall. Unless it happened in year 1 with Piquet or something. From then on he gave the orders

I can't think of any for Alonso, but he did overtake his team mate in the freaking pitlane which is about as audacious and ruthless a put-down of one's team mate that I've ever seen and leaves me in no doubt that if the opportunity ever came up, he'd ignore a multi-21 order if he was the "1" in that instruction.

Senna later argued that the second start was a new race, and therefore the previous agreement was no longer in effect.

Schumacher moved over for Irvine to win in Malaysia in '99, on his return after breaking his leg earlier in the season, when Irvine was in contention for the WDC.

He did indeed! However, Senna forgot to tell Prost that when he suggested the agreement. Besides, if there was any practical benefit to the agreement in the first start, the same practical benefit would apply to the second start. Ergo, Senna was just making excuses to justify his move... rather like Seb did after Multi-21!

Thanks for digging up the Schumacher one! I didn't remember that one at all.

[AJB88]

thegreenhell said:

Schumacher moved over for Irvine to win in Malaysia in '99, on his return after breaking his leg earlier in the season, when Irvine was in contention for the WDC.

People forget that one quickly because Schumacher.

[Jasandjules]

I have always liked Seb, even in his Red Bull days. Mainly because I loved the fact he could be in the lead two laps from the end, when the team are telling him to nurse the car home, then the radio call "Who has fastest lap?" and the reply was usually "Don't even think about it"... Then.......

I also remember (but can't now for the life of me remember the track) when he qualified on Pole having done one lap in Q1, Q2 and Q3. He just went out, did the fastest lap, went back to the garage.......

And he has a great (sarcastic) sense of humour and loves the UK.... He is one of the drivers I'd love to have dinner/drinks with and just chat...

[AJB88]

Jasandjules said:

I have always liked Seb, even in his Red Bull days. Mainly because I loved the fact he could be in the lead two laps from the end, when the team are telling him to nurse the car home, then the radio call "Who has fastest lap?" and the reply was usually "Don't even think about it"... Then.......

I also remember (but can't now for the life of me remember the track) when he qualified on Pole having done one lap in Q1, Q2 and Q3. He just went out, did the fastest lap, went back to the garage.......

And he has a great (sarcastic) sense of humour and loves the UK.... He is one of the drivers I'd love to have dinner/drinks with and just chat...

I like how hes quite closed outside of the F1 world. You very rarely see him in the news etc, family away from the limelight etc.

[Mach]

Jasandjules said:

He is one of the drivers I'd love to have dinner/drinks with and just chat...

Same

[DanielSan]

HustleRussell said:

Oilchange said:

to be honest he only got 2nd place because of Pirelli, not because he did something incredible with an average car.

Only Verstappen was scuppered by his Pirelli while running in front of Vettel, so unless you want to entirely re-imagine the events of the race, Vettel was on track for a podium- bettering his own previous best this season of 5th place and beating the incumbent Lance’s best finish of the season so far by five places.

Even with Verstappen not retiring he was on for 4th place anyway. He was on a soft tyre and running at a good enough pace to have caught Gasly and LeClerc before the end of the race and with the straight line speed under DRS the speed to make the move on both of them.

Hamilton dropping it on the restart just helped to bump him up that extra spot to 2nd as an extra bonus from Verstappen's retirement

[paulguitar]

AJB88 said:

I like how hes quite closed outside of the F1 world. You very rarely see him in the news etc, family away from the limelight etc.

I like that as well, and I think he will be able to live a life of relative obscurity once he retires as a result.

BTW Hope I did not interrupt your yawn.

[AJB88]

paulguitar said:

I like that as well, and I think he will be able to live a life of relative obscurity once he retires as a result.

BTW Hope I did not interrupt your yawn.

Nope I'm awake now, 12 hour night shift to go

[Mr Tidy]

Jasandjules said:

I have always liked Seb, even in his Red Bull days. Mainly because I loved the fact he could be in the lead two laps from the end, when the team are telling him to nurse the car home, then the radio call "Who has fastest lap?" and the reply was usually "Don't even think about it"... Then.......

I also remember (but can't now for the life of me remember the track) when he qualified on Pole having done one lap in Q1, Q2 and Q3. He just went out, did the fastest lap, went back to the garage.......

And he has a great (sarcastic) sense of humour and loves the UK.... He is one of the drivers I'd love to have dinner/drinks with and just chat...

I never liked him - another arrogant German who thought he was so special.

Well maybe justified when Red Bull were unbeatable but ferrari weren't impressed!

I'd much rather have dinner/drinks with the team-mate he took out of WC contention, Mark Webber.

[DanielSan]

Mr Tidy said:

I never liked him - another arrogant German who thought he was so special.

Well maybe justified when Red Bull were unbeatable but ferrari weren't impressed!

I'd much rather have dinner/drinks with the team-mate he took out of WC contention, Mark Webber.

I like Mark Webber but only one makes took him out of contention when he had his best chance at WC and that was Webber himself when he binned it in Korea needlessly trying to catch Vettel when 2nd place would've been more then good enough on the day.