Sebastian Vettel

Sebastian Vettel

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Discussion

Derek Smith

45,514 posts

247 months

Wednesday 28th June 2017
quotequote all
Adrian W said:
Doink said:
According to respected German magazine Auto Motor und Sport, Vettel was indeed close to being disqualified.

The ten-second stop/go penalty was issued due to the race stewards 'fear of intervening too much in the World Championship with a draconian penalty. A sports commissioner said: 'It was a narrow decision: Vettel was very near a black flag.'

So ultimately it's one rule for Ferrari's 2017 Formula One World Championship leader and one rule for everyone else.

So come on Jean Todt show us what your made of, leaving it as it is just proves the above point
Todt ruling against Ferrari.............................................don't hold your breath
I'm not sure Todt and Ferrari are the best of mates. He's put up one major black against them. Go chat to any owner of a classic Ferrari and ask them their opinions on him. Start by suggesting, as I did, that they must be pleased that Todt, even if he has a lived in face and a girly name, was in charge of the FIA. Get ready to stand back.


Sylvaforever

2,212 posts

97 months

Wednesday 28th June 2017
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
I never took to him at RB. He wasn't exciting to watch and in his many incidents with Webber he made a few statements that went against what I'd seen. Since then, though, he's been growing on me too. I don't think one should judge on an isolated incident, but this does smack of his days in RB when things didn't go entirely his way.

He's in a difficult situation. He's in the lead of the WDC but doesn't feel secure. The main advantage Ferrari had over Merc, that of it being a one man team, has gone and he's up against a car which, on most circuits, is as fast. More to the point, he's up against a driver who, when well motivated, is the fastest on circuit. He must be looking to his engine allocation and the likelihood of penalties.

All negatives for him. For us, on the other hand, this could be a fun season. I'm enjoying it even if my enthusiasm for SV has been dulled.
Fair comments, I thought née hoped he'd turned a corner once leaving RB and it seemed that way for a period BUT there have been little glimpses of the pressure getting to him at Ferrari this season and now these last episodes alongside the refusal to accept responsibility for his actions ---- well it doesn't bode well ----




Edited by Sylvaforever on Wednesday 28th June 13:50

Doink

1,652 posts

146 months

Wednesday 28th June 2017
quotequote all
Adrian W said:
Doink said:
According to respected German magazine Auto Motor und Sport, Vettel was indeed close to being disqualified.

The ten-second stop/go penalty was issued due to the race stewards 'fear of intervening too much in the World Championship with a draconian penalty. A sports commissioner said: 'It was a narrow decision: Vettel was very near a black flag.'

So ultimately it's one rule for Ferrari's 2017 Formula One World Championship leader and one rule for everyone else.

So come on Jean Todt show us what your made of, leaving it as it is just proves the above point
Todt ruling against Ferrari.............................................don't hold your breath
That's what we're all in fear of I guess but he has to otherwise he's as bad as the stewards, it should not matter whether vettel is the championship leader or whether the boss of the FIA is ex Ferrari, bias has to go out the windows in these situations as it'll make the whole penalty system look a mockery and there's one man who can make it rock solid and that's Jean Todt, he'd probably even earn some respect in dishing out a penalty

Andy S15

399 posts

126 months

Wednesday 28th June 2017
quotequote all
Interestingly, this is the FIA's reasoning for disqualifying Schumacher from the entire 1997 championship when he collided unsuccessfully with Villeneuve:

"The manoeuvre was an instinctive reaction and although deliberate not made with malice or premeditation, it was a serious error."

Since Vettel clearly reacted with premeditation and malice, surely that could be deemed worthy of a serious penalty?

HardtopManual

2,405 posts

165 months

Wednesday 28th June 2017
quotequote all
Rebew said:
Did he gain an advantage? He was certainly at less of a disadvantage from his penalty than Hamilton was from his headrest issue, but they are completely seperate issues. If Mercedes had secured Hamiltons headrest properly then he would have won the race and Vettel would have finished fifth and everyone would be happy.
This. Vettel was effectively docked 15 points and a win. Either (with countback) could decide the WDC.

Merc threw away a race win by failing to secure Lewis' headrest.

The two incidents are completely unrelated.

anonymous-user

Original Poster:

53 months

Wednesday 28th June 2017
quotequote all
Are we all getting a bit too PC??

Yes what Vettel did was out of order but is it not a case of just too much passion?

Piquet hitting Salazar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iTUa0J8Kzw

James Hunt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpZnE7gj0gY






Cold

15,207 posts

89 months

Wednesday 28th June 2017
quotequote all
It's an entertainment industry. Entertain me or disappear. Dance monkey, dance.

hairyben

8,516 posts

182 months

Wednesday 28th June 2017
quotequote all
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Are we all getting a bit too PC??

Yes what Vettel did was out of order but is it not a case of just too much passion?

Piquet hitting Salazar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iTUa0J8Kzw

James Hunt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpZnE7gj0gY
completely different, not only was sebs entirely his own fault - well unless you're seb or ash73 - he also hadn't just suffered a disorientating and adrenaline charging high speed crash which goes some way to explaining/mitigating wild reactions

patmahe

5,744 posts

203 months

Wednesday 28th June 2017
quotequote all
Doink said:
According to respected German magazine Auto Motor und Sport, Vettel was indeed close to being disqualified.

The ten-second stop/go penalty was issued due to the race stewards 'fear of intervening too much in the World Championship with a draconian penalty. A sports commissioner said: 'It was a narrow decision: Vettel was very near a black flag.'

So ultimately it's one rule for Ferrari's 2017 Formula One World Championship leader and one rule for everyone else.

So come on Jean Todt show us what your made of, leaving it as it is just proves the above point
I'm glad to hear it was close (if true), I think this sets a dangerous precedent that a driver can deliberately hit another and expect only a 10 second stop/go. To be honest initially I gave Sebastian the benefit of the doubt and assumed he got over exited and the contact with Hamilton was accidental, but his conduct since has led me to believe it was deliberate and that in my opinion deserves exclusion from the result or a 1 race ban.

I think there are 2 Sebastians, the likeable jokey smiley guy you get in interviews and the darker more ruthless red mist character you get in the car who does not seem to be able to admit to larger screw ups. Remember his initial reaction to multi-21 and then changing his story. This feels very similar.

I think the FIA need to be strong here and show him and everyone else that no-one is bigger than the sport. And I say this as someone who up until Baku was pushing for Seb to take the Championship, now I'm not so sure, Lewis isn't helping with the fact that he is driving incredibly at the moment biggrin

Dr Z

3,396 posts

170 months

Wednesday 28th June 2017
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
LDN said:
Vettel. Was already a fan of his but recognised his flaws; he was growing on me... then this coming together made me think 'hmmmm' but moreso; the complete unwillingness to even acknowledge his action makes me think that he's a complete tit.
I never took to him at RB. He wasn't exciting to watch and in his many incidents with Webber he made a few statements that went against what I'd seen. Since then, though, he's been growing on me too. I don't think one should judge on an isolated incident, but this does smack of his days in RB when things didn't go entirely his way.

He's in a difficult situation. He's in the lead of the WDC but doesn't feel secure. The main advantage Ferrari had over Merc, that of it being a one man team, has gone and he's up against a car which, on most circuits, is as fast. More to the point, he's up against a driver who, when well motivated, is the fastest on circuit. He must be looking to his engine allocation and the likelihood of penalties.

All negatives for him. For us, on the other hand, this could be a fun season. I'm enjoying it even if my enthusiasm for SV has been dulled.
I too was not a fan when he was at RB, probably because the team I support were trying and failing to beat him for 3 straight years. I was biased and it was easy to say that he was being flattered by Newey masterpieces. It was easy to say that his team favoured him. It helped to make the beating he gave 'my' team, easier to digest.

I had to re-evaluate my opinion of him when he joined Ferrari and started nicking a few wins from the Mercs. Actually, Kimi was a great benchmark to evaluate against. Looking a bit deeper, I found that he displayed the same speed he did in the RB cars at Ferrari. Hang on, but what about the blown diffuser etc? Nope, he's just naturally quick without an EBD in the same corners.

Since 2010, he's improved massively in putting a WDC campaign together, IMO. When the car is thereabouts, he will be there. None of this blowing hot/cold stuff. Even on his bad days, he will still be there picking up good points, minimising points loss. Lots of fans point to last year as him losing motivation and getting ragged. On the contrary, he had a lot of reliability problems that masked how close he was to Kimi. Still quick in the same places (same vs Ricciardo in 2014). His motivation is a car capable of fighting for the WDC or if thinks he's got a chance for it.

If I were Hamilton, I wouldn't try and wind him up or play mind games. Hamilton doesn't need to give him the extra motivation. He's good at raising his game that way. Just play the silent assassin and beat him with a smile. That's the best way. I think he's a perfect rival for Hamilton actually. Much better than Rosberg in that, he can give as good as he gets interms of wheel-to-wheel stuff, and is a lot more comfortable in being ruthless wheel-to-wheel.

I'm glad that someone like him is there to keep the Merc lot from playing happy families this year.

anonymous-user

Original Poster:

53 months

Wednesday 28th June 2017
quotequote all
Talking about Jean Todt I was delighted when he became the FIA president.

Just look at what the guy has been involved in. Group B rallying and the Ferrari F1 team.

I really thought things under him would be fantastic and he might just be able to make a huge change.

How wrong could I have been.

How many F1 events do you actually see him at?

Just a job for the boys. He should be sacked.


deadslow

7,962 posts

222 months

Wednesday 28th June 2017
quotequote all
Dr Z said:
I think he's a perfect rival for Hamilton actually. Much better than Rosberg in that, he can give as good as he gets interms of wheel-to-wheel stuff.
...even when you're least expecting it hehe

Europa1

10,923 posts

187 months

Wednesday 28th June 2017
quotequote all
Sylvaforever said:
Fair comments, I thought née hoped he'd turned a corner once leaving RB and it seemed that way for a period BUT there have been little glimpses of the pressure getting to him at Ferrari this season and now these last episodes alongside the refusal to accept responsibility for his actions ---- well it doesn't bode well ----




Edited by Sylvaforever on Wednesday 28th June 13:50
At the risk of putting in an order for a serving of perroquet a la whoosh, is the photo not Webber?

HustleRussell

24,602 posts

159 months

Wednesday 28th June 2017
quotequote all
Europa1 said:
Sylvaforever said:
Fair comments, I thought née hoped he'd turned a corner once leaving RB and it seemed that way for a period BUT there have been little glimpses of the pressure getting to him at Ferrari this season and now these last episodes alongside the refusal to accept responsibility for his actions ---- well it doesn't bode well ----




Edited by Sylvaforever on Wednesday 28th June 13:50
At the risk of putting in an order for a serving of perroquet a la whoosh, is the photo not Webber?
That's what I thought, Launching off the back of a Caterham at one of the Eastern circuits?

ETA: Valencia headache

swisstoni

16,855 posts

278 months

Wednesday 28th June 2017
quotequote all
I'd put money on bugger all further action bar possibly a reprimand which is effectively bugger all.

amare32

2,417 posts

222 months

Wednesday 28th June 2017
quotequote all
swisstoni said:
I'd put money on bugger all further action bar possibly a reprimand which is effectively bugger all.
There's more chance Hamilton getting 25 points docked than Ferrari Int Assistance punishing Vettel.

S0 What

3,358 posts

171 months

Wednesday 28th June 2017
quotequote all
To be fair everyone moaned at the level of interference Mosley produced, we get a new FIA boss who doesn't interfere and everyone moans, he's still there in the background doing what he does without us seeing it is all, he still has personel at the races doing his bidding or enforcing the rules (see it as you wish), the FIA is more than just F1 after all and perhaps Totd just doen't love the limelight as Mosley did ?

As to the topic of Vettel TBH i have no want for any further punishment, i'll just accept what the FIA do (or don't) and get on with enjoying the rest af the season hoping it will continue to be as exciting as it has so far, not really botherd who wins the WDC as long as i get to see it happen smile

jm doc

2,776 posts

231 months

Thursday 29th June 2017
quotequote all
Vettel should have his licence suspended and be made to undertake anger management training. He should not get it back until he can demonstrate that he can control himself. The FIA will leave themselves wide open if they fail to act on such an open and shut case of loss of self control in such a dangerous sport and something serious occurs at a later date.

The fact that he appears to be in complete denial of the event is in my opinion very significant and highlights the seriousness of his problem.

anonymous-user

Original Poster:

53 months

Thursday 29th June 2017
quotequote all
jm doc said:
Vettel should have his licence suspended and be made to undertake anger management training. He should not get it back until he can demonstrate that he can control himself. The FIA will leave themselves wide open if they fail to act on such an open and shut case of loss of self control in such a dangerous sport and something serious occurs at a later date.

The fact that he appears to be in complete denial of the event is in my opinion very significant and highlights the seriousness of his problem.

'such a dangerous sport'. Really?

Whatever, if the FIA do as you suggest they might as well hand Hamilton the WC now. The season will be over.

Derek Smith

45,514 posts

247 months

Thursday 29th June 2017
quotequote all
Dr Z said:
I too was not a fan when he was at RB, probably because the team I support were trying and failing to beat him for 3 straight years. I was biased and it was easy to say that he was being flattered by Newey masterpieces. It was easy to say that his team favoured him. It helped to make the beating he gave 'my' team, easier to digest.

I had to re-evaluate my opinion of him when he joined Ferrari and started nicking a few wins from the Mercs. Actually, Kimi was a great benchmark to evaluate against. Looking a bit deeper, I found that he displayed the same speed he did in the RB cars at Ferrari. Hang on, but what about the blown diffuser etc? Nope, he's just naturally quick without an EBD in the same corners.

Since 2010, he's improved massively in putting a WDC campaign together, IMO. When the car is thereabouts, he will be there. None of this blowing hot/cold stuff. Even on his bad days, he will still be there picking up good points, minimising points loss. Lots of fans point to last year as him losing motivation and getting ragged. On the contrary, he had a lot of reliability problems that masked how close he was to Kimi. Still quick in the same places (same vs Ricciardo in 2014). His motivation is a car capable of fighting for the WDC or if thinks he's got a chance for it.

If I were Hamilton, I wouldn't try and wind him up or play mind games. Hamilton doesn't need to give him the extra motivation. He's good at raising his game that way. Just play the silent assassin and beat him with a smile. That's the best way. I think he's a perfect rival for Hamilton actually. Much better than Rosberg in that, he can give as good as he gets interms of wheel-to-wheel stuff, and is a lot more comfortable in being ruthless wheel-to-wheel.

I'm glad that someone like him is there to keep the Merc lot from playing happy families this year.
I wasn't commenting of SV's abilities in a car. I think we've all seen enough to negate the 'only because he's in the best car' idea.

In RB days I couldn't get myself to like him and I didn't know why. It's not as if I hold his nationality against him. It's not as if I hold his WDCs against him. But in immediately post race interviews he was like glass paper being rubbed inside my ears. Once into Ferrari, a team I don't favour, things changed slowly and I began to take to him. This wasn't against my better judgement; he seemed quite likeable. Even his tirade against Whiting could be put down to racing pressures.

The driving into LH twice isn't what has soured him for me but the post race reaction. My thought on the matter were that the old SV was back and 'get over yourself'. We all make stupid mistakes - I'm something of an aficionado - but you have to move on. Nursing a grudge isn't a sign of maturity.

I agree with you about him as a driver and it is good he's in the Ferrari to challenge the power of Merc and Hamilton, especially now it's a one-man team. Mind you, wouldn't it be so much better with Alonso in his place?