Sebastian Vettel
Discussion
Adrian W said:
Doink said:
According to respected German magazine Auto Motor und Sport, Vettel was indeed close to being disqualified.
The ten-second stop/go penalty was issued due to the race stewards 'fear of intervening too much in the World Championship with a draconian penalty. A sports commissioner said: 'It was a narrow decision: Vettel was very near a black flag.'
So ultimately it's one rule for Ferrari's 2017 Formula One World Championship leader and one rule for everyone else.
So come on Jean Todt show us what your made of, leaving it as it is just proves the above point
Todt ruling against Ferrari.............................................don't hold your breath The ten-second stop/go penalty was issued due to the race stewards 'fear of intervening too much in the World Championship with a draconian penalty. A sports commissioner said: 'It was a narrow decision: Vettel was very near a black flag.'
So ultimately it's one rule for Ferrari's 2017 Formula One World Championship leader and one rule for everyone else.
So come on Jean Todt show us what your made of, leaving it as it is just proves the above point
Derek Smith said:
I never took to him at RB. He wasn't exciting to watch and in his many incidents with Webber he made a few statements that went against what I'd seen. Since then, though, he's been growing on me too. I don't think one should judge on an isolated incident, but this does smack of his days in RB when things didn't go entirely his way.
He's in a difficult situation. He's in the lead of the WDC but doesn't feel secure. The main advantage Ferrari had over Merc, that of it being a one man team, has gone and he's up against a car which, on most circuits, is as fast. More to the point, he's up against a driver who, when well motivated, is the fastest on circuit. He must be looking to his engine allocation and the likelihood of penalties.
All negatives for him. For us, on the other hand, this could be a fun season. I'm enjoying it even if my enthusiasm for SV has been dulled.
Fair comments, I thought née hoped he'd turned a corner once leaving RB and it seemed that way for a period BUT there have been little glimpses of the pressure getting to him at Ferrari this season and now these last episodes alongside the refusal to accept responsibility for his actions ---- well it doesn't bode well ----He's in a difficult situation. He's in the lead of the WDC but doesn't feel secure. The main advantage Ferrari had over Merc, that of it being a one man team, has gone and he's up against a car which, on most circuits, is as fast. More to the point, he's up against a driver who, when well motivated, is the fastest on circuit. He must be looking to his engine allocation and the likelihood of penalties.
All negatives for him. For us, on the other hand, this could be a fun season. I'm enjoying it even if my enthusiasm for SV has been dulled.
Edited by Sylvaforever on Wednesday 28th June 13:50
Adrian W said:
Doink said:
According to respected German magazine Auto Motor und Sport, Vettel was indeed close to being disqualified.
The ten-second stop/go penalty was issued due to the race stewards 'fear of intervening too much in the World Championship with a draconian penalty. A sports commissioner said: 'It was a narrow decision: Vettel was very near a black flag.'
So ultimately it's one rule for Ferrari's 2017 Formula One World Championship leader and one rule for everyone else.
So come on Jean Todt show us what your made of, leaving it as it is just proves the above point
Todt ruling against Ferrari.............................................don't hold your breath The ten-second stop/go penalty was issued due to the race stewards 'fear of intervening too much in the World Championship with a draconian penalty. A sports commissioner said: 'It was a narrow decision: Vettel was very near a black flag.'
So ultimately it's one rule for Ferrari's 2017 Formula One World Championship leader and one rule for everyone else.
So come on Jean Todt show us what your made of, leaving it as it is just proves the above point
Interestingly, this is the FIA's reasoning for disqualifying Schumacher from the entire 1997 championship when he collided unsuccessfully with Villeneuve:
"The manoeuvre was an instinctive reaction and although deliberate not made with malice or premeditation, it was a serious error."
Since Vettel clearly reacted with premeditation and malice, surely that could be deemed worthy of a serious penalty?
"The manoeuvre was an instinctive reaction and although deliberate not made with malice or premeditation, it was a serious error."
Since Vettel clearly reacted with premeditation and malice, surely that could be deemed worthy of a serious penalty?
Rebew said:
Did he gain an advantage? He was certainly at less of a disadvantage from his penalty than Hamilton was from his headrest issue, but they are completely seperate issues. If Mercedes had secured Hamiltons headrest properly then he would have won the race and Vettel would have finished fifth and everyone would be happy.
This. Vettel was effectively docked 15 points and a win. Either (with countback) could decide the WDC.Merc threw away a race win by failing to secure Lewis' headrest.
The two incidents are completely unrelated.
Are we all getting a bit too PC??
Yes what Vettel did was out of order but is it not a case of just too much passion?
Piquet hitting Salazar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iTUa0J8Kzw
James Hunt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpZnE7gj0gY
Yes what Vettel did was out of order but is it not a case of just too much passion?
Piquet hitting Salazar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iTUa0J8Kzw
James Hunt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpZnE7gj0gY
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Are we all getting a bit too PC??
Yes what Vettel did was out of order but is it not a case of just too much passion?
Piquet hitting Salazar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iTUa0J8Kzw
James Hunt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpZnE7gj0gY
completely different, not only was sebs entirely his own fault - well unless you're seb or ash73 - he also hadn't just suffered a disorientating and adrenaline charging high speed crash which goes some way to explaining/mitigating wild reactionsYes what Vettel did was out of order but is it not a case of just too much passion?
Piquet hitting Salazar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iTUa0J8Kzw
James Hunt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpZnE7gj0gY
Doink said:
According to respected German magazine Auto Motor und Sport, Vettel was indeed close to being disqualified.
The ten-second stop/go penalty was issued due to the race stewards 'fear of intervening too much in the World Championship with a draconian penalty. A sports commissioner said: 'It was a narrow decision: Vettel was very near a black flag.'
So ultimately it's one rule for Ferrari's 2017 Formula One World Championship leader and one rule for everyone else.
So come on Jean Todt show us what your made of, leaving it as it is just proves the above point
I'm glad to hear it was close (if true), I think this sets a dangerous precedent that a driver can deliberately hit another and expect only a 10 second stop/go. To be honest initially I gave Sebastian the benefit of the doubt and assumed he got over exited and the contact with Hamilton was accidental, but his conduct since has led me to believe it was deliberate and that in my opinion deserves exclusion from the result or a 1 race ban.The ten-second stop/go penalty was issued due to the race stewards 'fear of intervening too much in the World Championship with a draconian penalty. A sports commissioner said: 'It was a narrow decision: Vettel was very near a black flag.'
So ultimately it's one rule for Ferrari's 2017 Formula One World Championship leader and one rule for everyone else.
So come on Jean Todt show us what your made of, leaving it as it is just proves the above point
I think there are 2 Sebastians, the likeable jokey smiley guy you get in interviews and the darker more ruthless red mist character you get in the car who does not seem to be able to admit to larger screw ups. Remember his initial reaction to multi-21 and then changing his story. This feels very similar.
I think the FIA need to be strong here and show him and everyone else that no-one is bigger than the sport. And I say this as someone who up until Baku was pushing for Seb to take the Championship, now I'm not so sure, Lewis isn't helping with the fact that he is driving incredibly at the moment
Derek Smith said:
LDN said:
Vettel. Was already a fan of his but recognised his flaws; he was growing on me... then this coming together made me think 'hmmmm' but moreso; the complete unwillingness to even acknowledge his action makes me think that he's a complete tit.
I never took to him at RB. He wasn't exciting to watch and in his many incidents with Webber he made a few statements that went against what I'd seen. Since then, though, he's been growing on me too. I don't think one should judge on an isolated incident, but this does smack of his days in RB when things didn't go entirely his way.He's in a difficult situation. He's in the lead of the WDC but doesn't feel secure. The main advantage Ferrari had over Merc, that of it being a one man team, has gone and he's up against a car which, on most circuits, is as fast. More to the point, he's up against a driver who, when well motivated, is the fastest on circuit. He must be looking to his engine allocation and the likelihood of penalties.
All negatives for him. For us, on the other hand, this could be a fun season. I'm enjoying it even if my enthusiasm for SV has been dulled.
I had to re-evaluate my opinion of him when he joined Ferrari and started nicking a few wins from the Mercs. Actually, Kimi was a great benchmark to evaluate against. Looking a bit deeper, I found that he displayed the same speed he did in the RB cars at Ferrari. Hang on, but what about the blown diffuser etc? Nope, he's just naturally quick without an EBD in the same corners.
Since 2010, he's improved massively in putting a WDC campaign together, IMO. When the car is thereabouts, he will be there. None of this blowing hot/cold stuff. Even on his bad days, he will still be there picking up good points, minimising points loss. Lots of fans point to last year as him losing motivation and getting ragged. On the contrary, he had a lot of reliability problems that masked how close he was to Kimi. Still quick in the same places (same vs Ricciardo in 2014). His motivation is a car capable of fighting for the WDC or if thinks he's got a chance for it.
If I were Hamilton, I wouldn't try and wind him up or play mind games. Hamilton doesn't need to give him the extra motivation. He's good at raising his game that way. Just play the silent assassin and beat him with a smile. That's the best way. I think he's a perfect rival for Hamilton actually. Much better than Rosberg in that, he can give as good as he gets interms of wheel-to-wheel stuff, and is a lot more comfortable in being ruthless wheel-to-wheel.
I'm glad that someone like him is there to keep the Merc lot from playing happy families this year.
Talking about Jean Todt I was delighted when he became the FIA president.
Just look at what the guy has been involved in. Group B rallying and the Ferrari F1 team.
I really thought things under him would be fantastic and he might just be able to make a huge change.
How wrong could I have been.
How many F1 events do you actually see him at?
Just a job for the boys. He should be sacked.
Just look at what the guy has been involved in. Group B rallying and the Ferrari F1 team.
I really thought things under him would be fantastic and he might just be able to make a huge change.
How wrong could I have been.
How many F1 events do you actually see him at?
Just a job for the boys. He should be sacked.
Sylvaforever said:
Fair comments, I thought née hoped he'd turned a corner once leaving RB and it seemed that way for a period BUT there have been little glimpses of the pressure getting to him at Ferrari this season and now these last episodes alongside the refusal to accept responsibility for his actions ---- well it doesn't bode well ----
At the risk of putting in an order for a serving of perroquet a la whoosh, is the photo not Webber?Edited by Sylvaforever on Wednesday 28th June 13:50
Europa1 said:
Sylvaforever said:
Fair comments, I thought née hoped he'd turned a corner once leaving RB and it seemed that way for a period BUT there have been little glimpses of the pressure getting to him at Ferrari this season and now these last episodes alongside the refusal to accept responsibility for his actions ---- well it doesn't bode well ----
At the risk of putting in an order for a serving of perroquet a la whoosh, is the photo not Webber?Edited by Sylvaforever on Wednesday 28th June 13:50
ETA: Valencia
To be fair everyone moaned at the level of interference Mosley produced, we get a new FIA boss who doesn't interfere and everyone moans, he's still there in the background doing what he does without us seeing it is all, he still has personel at the races doing his bidding or enforcing the rules (see it as you wish), the FIA is more than just F1 after all and perhaps Totd just doen't love the limelight as Mosley did ?
As to the topic of Vettel TBH i have no want for any further punishment, i'll just accept what the FIA do (or don't) and get on with enjoying the rest af the season hoping it will continue to be as exciting as it has so far, not really botherd who wins the WDC as long as i get to see it happen
As to the topic of Vettel TBH i have no want for any further punishment, i'll just accept what the FIA do (or don't) and get on with enjoying the rest af the season hoping it will continue to be as exciting as it has so far, not really botherd who wins the WDC as long as i get to see it happen
Vettel should have his licence suspended and be made to undertake anger management training. He should not get it back until he can demonstrate that he can control himself. The FIA will leave themselves wide open if they fail to act on such an open and shut case of loss of self control in such a dangerous sport and something serious occurs at a later date.
The fact that he appears to be in complete denial of the event is in my opinion very significant and highlights the seriousness of his problem.
The fact that he appears to be in complete denial of the event is in my opinion very significant and highlights the seriousness of his problem.
jm doc said:
Vettel should have his licence suspended and be made to undertake anger management training. He should not get it back until he can demonstrate that he can control himself. The FIA will leave themselves wide open if they fail to act on such an open and shut case of loss of self control in such a dangerous sport and something serious occurs at a later date.
The fact that he appears to be in complete denial of the event is in my opinion very significant and highlights the seriousness of his problem.
The fact that he appears to be in complete denial of the event is in my opinion very significant and highlights the seriousness of his problem.
'such a dangerous sport'. Really?
Whatever, if the FIA do as you suggest they might as well hand Hamilton the WC now. The season will be over.
Dr Z said:
I too was not a fan when he was at RB, probably because the team I support were trying and failing to beat him for 3 straight years. I was biased and it was easy to say that he was being flattered by Newey masterpieces. It was easy to say that his team favoured him. It helped to make the beating he gave 'my' team, easier to digest.
I had to re-evaluate my opinion of him when he joined Ferrari and started nicking a few wins from the Mercs. Actually, Kimi was a great benchmark to evaluate against. Looking a bit deeper, I found that he displayed the same speed he did in the RB cars at Ferrari. Hang on, but what about the blown diffuser etc? Nope, he's just naturally quick without an EBD in the same corners.
Since 2010, he's improved massively in putting a WDC campaign together, IMO. When the car is thereabouts, he will be there. None of this blowing hot/cold stuff. Even on his bad days, he will still be there picking up good points, minimising points loss. Lots of fans point to last year as him losing motivation and getting ragged. On the contrary, he had a lot of reliability problems that masked how close he was to Kimi. Still quick in the same places (same vs Ricciardo in 2014). His motivation is a car capable of fighting for the WDC or if thinks he's got a chance for it.
If I were Hamilton, I wouldn't try and wind him up or play mind games. Hamilton doesn't need to give him the extra motivation. He's good at raising his game that way. Just play the silent assassin and beat him with a smile. That's the best way. I think he's a perfect rival for Hamilton actually. Much better than Rosberg in that, he can give as good as he gets interms of wheel-to-wheel stuff, and is a lot more comfortable in being ruthless wheel-to-wheel.
I'm glad that someone like him is there to keep the Merc lot from playing happy families this year.
I wasn't commenting of SV's abilities in a car. I think we've all seen enough to negate the 'only because he's in the best car' idea. I had to re-evaluate my opinion of him when he joined Ferrari and started nicking a few wins from the Mercs. Actually, Kimi was a great benchmark to evaluate against. Looking a bit deeper, I found that he displayed the same speed he did in the RB cars at Ferrari. Hang on, but what about the blown diffuser etc? Nope, he's just naturally quick without an EBD in the same corners.
Since 2010, he's improved massively in putting a WDC campaign together, IMO. When the car is thereabouts, he will be there. None of this blowing hot/cold stuff. Even on his bad days, he will still be there picking up good points, minimising points loss. Lots of fans point to last year as him losing motivation and getting ragged. On the contrary, he had a lot of reliability problems that masked how close he was to Kimi. Still quick in the same places (same vs Ricciardo in 2014). His motivation is a car capable of fighting for the WDC or if thinks he's got a chance for it.
If I were Hamilton, I wouldn't try and wind him up or play mind games. Hamilton doesn't need to give him the extra motivation. He's good at raising his game that way. Just play the silent assassin and beat him with a smile. That's the best way. I think he's a perfect rival for Hamilton actually. Much better than Rosberg in that, he can give as good as he gets interms of wheel-to-wheel stuff, and is a lot more comfortable in being ruthless wheel-to-wheel.
I'm glad that someone like him is there to keep the Merc lot from playing happy families this year.
In RB days I couldn't get myself to like him and I didn't know why. It's not as if I hold his nationality against him. It's not as if I hold his WDCs against him. But in immediately post race interviews he was like glass paper being rubbed inside my ears. Once into Ferrari, a team I don't favour, things changed slowly and I began to take to him. This wasn't against my better judgement; he seemed quite likeable. Even his tirade against Whiting could be put down to racing pressures.
The driving into LH twice isn't what has soured him for me but the post race reaction. My thought on the matter were that the old SV was back and 'get over yourself'. We all make stupid mistakes - I'm something of an aficionado - but you have to move on. Nursing a grudge isn't a sign of maturity.
I agree with you about him as a driver and it is good he's in the Ferrari to challenge the power of Merc and Hamilton, especially now it's a one-man team. Mind you, wouldn't it be so much better with Alonso in his place?
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