Sebastian Vettel

[Flooble]

TheDeuce said:

You just said it ^^^ car and team don't suit him. If you're right, then there he can only be happy by leaving the team or the sport. Would he leave the team and go to another at his age? Hardly anybody at his stage in his career leaves Ferrari... It's known as a place to go to end your career, and not without reason.

Obviously Kimi left, but Vettel isn't Kimi. No one is Kimi Any in any case, he was very clear that he just wants race at whatever team will have him. Vettel however doesn't seem to have that mentality and only seems to show any passion these days when he is winning or feels robbed of a win. His season so far has been fairly uninspiring but for the first time he seems generally not bothered/frustrated by that...

That's a good point. How many racers have gone to Ferrari and then had more success elsewhere. I still remember poor Fisichella - he traded his career for a couple of races in a red car.

The only one I can think of who achieved more post-Ferrari is Nigel Mansell?

[vaud]

Flooble said:

The only one I can think of who achieved more post-Ferrari is Nigel Mansell?

Prost didn't achieve more post Ferrari, but he did get another WDC with Williams?

[TheDeuce]

vaud said:

Flooble said:

The only one I can think of who achieved more post-Ferrari is Nigel Mansell?

Prost didn't achieve more post Ferrari, but he did get another WDC with Williams?

I'm stuck on those two as well. And Prost is a little bit of a stretch as you say, he achieved still - but not exactly 'better'.

The problem is a large part of Ferrari's legacy in F1 involved the slightly dubious Shumacher years. If those are taken out of the equation then it's been a very long time since Ferrari had a sustained period of greatness. We simply assume the drivers covet the idea of a Ferrari seat, and the pundits play up to that assumption endlessly too. But we don't actually know how the drivers and their advisors judge the merits of taking the seat. All we know is that when interviewed each new signing agrees it's wonderful to be welcomed in to a 'historic and legendary F1 team'.. But then, of course, they would have to say that as they have just been signed!

Putting aside all the hype and rumours, for all we know it's more often than not a no brainer for a driver that worries they may be losing their edge to accept the seat as it's at least seen as a impressive seat to get, even if it's fairly likely accepting it means waving goodbye to WDC hopes and dreams. Perhaps that could be why so many have not achieved post Ferrari - they already had internal doubts when they went to Ferrari in the first place... CLC wouldn't fit that picture, but for separate reasons, it's not as if a young driver would ever say no to any top team seat.

The above is just a theory, and it's not one I present as fact at all. What is fact is that we don't really know what motivates the decision to go to Ferrari, and that Ferrari really haven't been a good bet for WDC/WCC for quite some time now. We also know that they're secretive, tricky and that they're experts at maintaining a glowing F1 image regardless of how well they actually perform in the sport. Who knows what the hell the deal is when a driver agrees to sign, or what it's really like once they have the seat?

The one thing I'm very confident of is that Lewis won't want to cross over to find out!! Mercedes also don't need/want Vettel. The most likely shift if he continues to perform and grow could be CLC to Mercedes in a couple of years - which would not only bring Mercedes a good driver, but as a bonus remove the same good driver from Ferrari. Or, by the same token, Max. I personally doubt the old guard will be doing any top-team hopping though.

[vaud]

TheDeuce said:

I'm stuck on those two as well. And Prost is a little bit of a stretch as you say, he achieved still - but not exactly 'better'.

I'm torn on that though. He came in, got the best car under him and delivered. Added a WDC and retired. Well calculated and no "hanging on" with a recognition that he was retiring at a peak.

[paua]

vaud said:

TheDeuce said:

I'm stuck on those two as well. And Prost is a little bit of a stretch as you say, he achieved still - but not exactly 'better'.

I'm torn on that though. He came in, got the best car under him and delivered. Added a WDC and retired. Well calculated and no "hanging on" with a recognition that he was retiring at a peak.

Have you both forgotten Lauda? He ditched Ferrari after 2 WDC's (walked out before season's end!), retired from the sport altogether for a couple years. Then came out of retirement & won a further WDC at MCLaren.

[vaud]

paua said:

Have you both forgotten Lauda? He ditched Ferrari after 2 WDC's (walked out before season's end!), retired from the sport altogether for a couple years. Then came out of retirement & won a further WDC at MCLaren.

He was before my time as an F1 follower so his history is less engrained in my memory. Good spot.

[Deesee]

If we start questioning Prost (Whom is one of the greatest btw) then let’s find a shark to jump eh...

[paua]

Deesee said:

If we start questioning Prost (Whom is one of the greatest btw) then let’s find a shark to jump eh...

Personal opinion etc, Prost is my pick as best ever.
Fangio also left Ferrari with a WDC & went on to claim another ( at Maserati )

[TheDeuce]

paua said:

vaud said:

TheDeuce said:

I'm stuck on those two as well. And Prost is a little bit of a stretch as you say, he achieved still - but not exactly 'better'.

I'm torn on that though. He came in, got the best car under him and delivered. Added a WDC and retired. Well calculated and no "hanging on" with a recognition that he was retiring at a peak.

Have you both forgotten Lauda? He ditched Ferrari after 2 WDC's (walked out before season's end!), retired from the sport altogether for a couple years. Then came out of retirement & won a further WDC at MCLaren.

There were other circumstances surrounding his decision to leave. And anyway, as I said initially, if the dodgy Shumi period is ignored then it's been a very long time since Ferrari had a sustained period of glory. And Niki was a very long time ago, at Ferrari. We can hardly rate the team or how keen an established and still developing driver might be to join them today, based upon how successful they were back when Niki was racing for them.

Like I said, we don't and cannot know what is truth, what is hype and what is simply down to their ability to prop up their 'legendary' status in F1. But it's a fact that the glory days haven't returned for a very long time now, an extremely long time if the Shumi years are taken as not entirely fair handed... Personally, I think that any driver who feels they are in their prime would probably not be overly keen to go to such a team. As viewers we see the prestige of Ferrari as it presented to us. The drivers and advisors see and feel what is probably closer to the truth, and the chances of doing well will surely swing their decisions, I suspect quite often away from Ferrari. We would never, ever hear of any of that - Ferrari can simply demand that an NDA is signed ahead of even a casual meeting to discuss 'whatever' comes up. With any driver they wish. We will only ever hear from the drivers that say yes to the seat, no matter how many say no. There may be rare exceptions to that, but overall - most of what is discussed and on the table, we will get no inkling of.

Red Bull are firmly in the ascendancy, they would probably have beaten Ferrari this year if Max hadn't spent the first half of the season battling solo. At some point, it becomes reasonable to question why promising and self confident drivers would seek the Ferrari seat vs Mercedes/Red Bull. Once again I will be careful to remove CLC from the equation, of course a rookie driver would accept a seat at any top team, with no hesitation.

Edited by TheDeuce on Monday 9th September 21:18

Edited by TheDeuce on Monday 9th September 21:20

[Deesee]

paua said:

Deesee said:

If we start questioning Prost (Whom is one of the greatest btw) then let’s find a shark to jump eh...

Personal opinion etc, Prost is my pick as best ever.
Fangio also left Ferrari with a WDC & went on to claim another ( at Maserati )

Different times and much different WDC points at the time.

Prost for me is in the Clark/Stewart mould, a consummate professional.

[vdn]

Hungrymc said:

vdn said:

He seems a nice chap but I’d rather see a hungry driver in that Ferrari seat.

Well, I’ll give it a go, but based on the other thread, I think we’d be better of sticking GOAT in it as his lines won’t be “wonky”

[CoolHands]

I still rate him, and think he would come good if given the right car for his preferences.

[37chevy]

CoolHands said:

I still rate him, and think he would come good if given the right car for his preferences.

As an experienced 4 time champion, shouldn’t he be able to adapt his driving style to suit the car he’s given?

[vdn]

37chevy said:

CoolHands said:

I still rate him, and think he would come good if given the right car for his preferences.

As an experienced 4 time champion, shouldn’t he be able to adapt his driving style to suit the car he’s given?

Ideally, yes. But he won those seasons in a car that was perfect for him... it seems he’s never been the type of driver that can drive around an issue or adapt well, like an Alonso or a Hamilton.

[HTP99]

vdn said:

37chevy said:

CoolHands said:

I still rate him, and think he would come good if given the right car for his preferences.

As an experienced 4 time champion, shouldn’t he be able to adapt his driving style to suit the car he’s given?

Ideally, yes. But he won those seasons in a car that was perfect for him... it seems he’s never been the type of driver that can drive around an issue or adapt well, like an Alonso or a Hamilton.

He's also never been great under pressure and never been the best overtaker either.

[glazbagun]

TheDeuce said:

The one thing I'm very confident of is that Lewis won't want to cross over to find out!! Mercedes also don't need/want Vettel. The most likely shift if he continues to perform and grow could be CLC to Mercedes in a couple of years - which would not only bring Mercedes a good driver, but as a bonus remove the same good driver from Ferrari. Or, by the same token, Max. I personally doubt the old guard will be doing any top-team hopping though.

I would LOVE to see CLC win Monza on his way to becoming WDC for the first time... In a Mercedes.

[Derek Smith]

I don't think I'm imagining this, but wasn't there a battle between Verstappen and Vettel on track this year where Vettel came out on top? I remember thinking that he was 'back'.

I'm with the majority; the car doesn't suit his driving style. However, I think it is a requirement of a great driver to be able to get the best out of any car. I remember a roll bar coming loose on a great driver's car and within two laps he was back up to speed. (I won't say how long ago that was.)

If he continues to make the same errors in the car. That's not good.

[kiseca]

TheDeuce said:

paua said:

vaud said:

TheDeuce said:

I'm stuck on those two as well. And Prost is a little bit of a stretch as you say, he achieved still - but not exactly 'better'.

I'm torn on that though. He came in, got the best car under him and delivered. Added a WDC and retired. Well calculated and no "hanging on" with a recognition that he was retiring at a peak.

Have you both forgotten Lauda? He ditched Ferrari after 2 WDC's (walked out before season's end!), retired from the sport altogether for a couple years. Then came out of retirement & won a further WDC at MCLaren.

There were other circumstances surrounding his decision to leave. And anyway, as I said initially, if the dodgy Shumi period is ignored then it's been a very long time since Ferrari had a sustained period of glory. And Niki was a very long time ago, at Ferrari. We can hardly rate the team or how keen an established and still developing driver might be to join them today, based upon how successful they were back when Niki was racing for them.

Like I said, we don't and cannot know what is truth, what is hype and what is simply down to their ability to prop up their 'legendary' status in F1. But it's a fact that the glory days haven't returned for a very long time now, an extremely long time if the Shumi years are taken as not entirely fair handed... Personally, I think that any driver who feels they are in their prime would probably not be overly keen to go to such a team. As viewers we see the prestige of Ferrari as it presented to us. The drivers and advisors see and feel what is probably closer to the truth, and the chances of doing well will surely swing their decisions, I suspect quite often away from Ferrari. We would never, ever hear of any of that - Ferrari can simply demand that an NDA is signed ahead of even a casual meeting to discuss 'whatever' comes up. With any driver they wish. We will only ever hear from the drivers that say yes to the seat, no matter how many say no. There may be rare exceptions to that, but overall - most of what is discussed and on the table, we will get no inkling of.

Red Bull are firmly in the ascendancy, they would probably have beaten Ferrari this year if Max hadn't spent the first half of the season battling solo. At some point, it becomes reasonable to question why promising and self confident drivers would seek the Ferrari seat vs Mercedes/Red Bull. Once again I will be careful to remove CLC from the equation, of course a rookie driver would accept a seat at any top team, with no hesitation.

Edited by TheDeuce on Monday 9th September 21:18

Edited by TheDeuce on Monday 9th September 21:20

I'd say Ferrari's only real sustained period of success was the Brawn / Schumacher period. They did win three WDCs in the '70s and then had a draught until the 2000s. Before Lauda's win they had a long drought going back to Surtees's win, I think.

For drivers who have moved there and done well without breaking their careers, I'd add Berger, who went on to some success in a McLaren and later got his final win in a Benetton, and Arnoux who was fighting for the world championship in a Ferrari in 1983, Stefan Johansson who made an unsuccessful move to a WDC winning car.

Also both Alonso and Vettel improved their championship performances by moving to Ferrari, Alonso more obviously than Vettel.

Alonso moved from a Renault with whom, if I recall correctly, he'd managed a single win fixed by his team mate, and was never a championship contender. With Ferrari he was a strong contender in 2010 and I believe came second twice.

Vettel moved from a Red Bull he couldn't compete in (granted just one year after his dominant period) to a Ferrari that put him in contention for 2 WDCs. In that period Red Bull have won races but have never been a challenge for a championship.

[PTF]

kiseca said:

Alonso moved from a Renault with whom, if I recall correctly, he'd managed a single win fixed by his team mate, and was never a championship contender.

Apart from the championships Alonso won with Renault in 2005 and 2006?

[Munter]

HTP99 said:

vdn said:

37chevy said:

CoolHands said:

I still rate him, and think he would come good if given the right car for his preferences.

As an experienced 4 time champion, shouldn’t he be able to adapt his driving style to suit the car he’s given?

Ideally, yes. But he won those seasons in a car that was perfect for him... it seems he’s never been the type of driver that can drive around an issue or adapt well, like an Alonso or a Hamilton.

He's also never been great under pressure and never been the best overtaker either.

As you say. He's always been a bit flakey under pressure. 2009 Australia getting a 50,000 fine for crashing with Kubica. Crashing into Webber in turkey 2010. Then there's Canada 2011 spin letting Button past.

He's good when the equipment is far ahead of the rest of the field and he's just putting in lap times. Get him close to others or playing catchup...it's pot luck how it turns out. I think this is why I tend to forget he's 4 times champ.

I don't recall him having races where you think "blimey he pulled that out of nowhere". While Alonso, Schumacher, Lewis my brain says they could/can work with a slightly inferior car and pull out a win if needs be.