Sebastian Vettel

Sebastian Vettel

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Derek Smith

33,987 posts

193 months

Wednesday 11th September
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The lead article in F1 Racing this month is engagingly entitled: Unraveling Sebastian Vettel.


Bradgate

2,149 posts

92 months

Wednesday 11th September
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Shouldn’t that be ‘Sebastian Vettel unravelling’?

glazbagun

9,855 posts

142 months

Thursday 12th September
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I think the piling into Seb is unwarranted. Kimi was smashed by Alonso and beaten repeatedly by Seb but still clearly has an abundance of skill.

I think what we have leaned is;

He likes lots of rear grip. And doesn't have it.

He's joined the most famously toxic of teams (though there's plenty of other nominations) and is being eaten by pressure since joining years ago.

He's older with kids so might have lost an edge- but the way that he's losing it through over-driving suggests no lack of bottle ala late Damon Hill. If anything he's trying too hard, not giving up.

His time in the WDC fulcrum might be nearing it's end, but TBH, I can't see any driver/team combo beating Lewis over a whole season. Max had a nightmare start to 2018 but it seems to be forgotten disproportionately compared to Sebs struggles.

37chevy

2,820 posts

101 months

Thursday 12th September
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glazbagun said:
I think the piling into Seb is unwarranted. Kimi was smashed by Alonso and beaten repeatedly by Seb but still clearly has an abundance of skill.

I think what we have leaned is;

He likes lots of rear grip. And doesn't have it.

He's joined the most famously toxic of teams (though there's plenty of other nominations) and is being eaten by pressure since joining years ago.

He's older with kids so might have lost an edge- but the way that he's losing it through over-driving suggests no lack of bottle ala late Damon Hill. If anything he's trying too hard, not giving up.

His time in the WDC fulcrum might be nearing it's end, but TBH, I can't see any driver/team combo beating Lewis over a whole season. Max had a nightmare start to 2018 but it seems to be forgotten disproportionately compared to Sebs struggles.
Unwarranted?

What we know is

Kimi didn’t make the numerous mistakes that Vettel has

It’s his job to either help develop the car to suit his driving style, or change his driving style to suit the car

It’s his choice to join those teams, as a 4 time champion he should be able to handle the toxicity or remove it by performing. He joined, in part because he was being beaten by his teammate at Red Bull

Max had a nightmare start to last year, it’s not been forgotten about, but again he’s young and was relatively inexperienced compared to a 4 time champion...but has now turned it around after learning from his mistakes, Vettel hasn’t for over a season now.

The criticism is absolutely warranted.

Sa Calobra

28,913 posts

156 months

Thursday 12th September
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Damon Hill lack of bottle?

He was almost 40 when he retired.

He was well into his 30's when he was winning.

How many F1 drivers are still competitive then.

Andy S15

379 posts

72 months

Thursday 12th September
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Sa Calobra said:
Damon Hill lack of bottle?

He was almost 40 when he retired.

He was well into his 30's when he was winning.

How many F1 drivers are still competitive then.
I recommend you read his book, it's really good. He lost the will to win and started to worry about his safety and what he could do to his family. He wanted to retire literally mid season he was so done with it towards the end.

Sa Calobra

28,913 posts

156 months

Thursday 12th September
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Yes everyone gets to that point especially when form isn't what it was.

Losing his bottle isn't the right word. It's very disingenuous.

One thing I disagreed with in his book was calling Graham Hill not naturally talented. He son Monaco how many times!


Craigyp79

474 posts

128 months

Thursday 12th September
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Sa Calobra said:
Yes everyone gets to that point especially when form isn't what it was.

Losing his bottle isn't the right word. It's very disingenuous.

One thing I disagreed with in his book was calling Graham Hill not naturally talented. He son Monaco how many times!
For one the poster above was suggesting that Damon Hill was overdriving as he was no longer as sharp as he had done, not because he had "lost his bottle" and for two, lots of people excel at what they are doing through hard work and dedication not through natural talent, so I think his son's insight given his experience if probably valid....

paulguitar

3,368 posts

58 months

Thursday 12th September
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Sa Calobra said:
One thing I disagreed with in his book was calling Graham Hill not naturally talented.
I don’t think the feeling is that Graham Hill wasn’t talented, it is more that he did not have an other-worldly talent like Moss and Clark did.

Poppiecock

755 posts

3 months

Thursday 12th September
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37chevy said:
It’s his job to either help develop the car to suit his driving style, or change his driving style to suit the car.
Drivers do very little to develop cars these days. There is so little real world testing.

Marc Gene at Ferrari tries to calibrate the sim. to accurately reflect the physical car, but you don’t know until you turn up for day 1 with a new car if you got it right or not.

All drivers struggle with a car from time to time. Even your beloved Lewis.

(Cue responses that when Lewis wins it’s because he’s awesome and Seb only wins because he has the fastest car)

LaurasOtherHalf

15,416 posts

141 months

Thursday 12th September
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https://youtu.be/RhM_04gQQkk

This isn’t that long ago and I still rate it as one of the best Qually laps I’ve witnessed.

That talent is still there, it just can’t be utilised in the current car.

For all his failings as a driver, when he’s on form he’s just about unstoppable, I suppose the juxtaposition is in his character is what happened just 24 hours later.

glazbagun

9,855 posts

142 months

Thursday 12th September
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Sa Calobra said:
Damon Hill lack of bottle?

He was almost 40 when he retired.

He was well into his 30's when he was winning.

How many F1 drivers are still competitive then.
I meant he lost his bottle, not that he lacked it. He drove plenty well with a young family to pay for, but Damon describes just being done with the whole thing and the risks by his final season. He wanted to retire at Silverstone but was persuaded to stay on when he'd basically had enough.

Vettel doesn't seem like that yet.


Edited by glazbagun on Thursday 12th September 11:15

Olympus593

906 posts

136 months

Thursday 12th September
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Baku will always stick,that is where it all started and where he lost his head in the car and has never recovered from it.

The fia should have done him a favour and booted him there and then.


kiseca

7,560 posts

164 months

Thursday 12th September
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37chevy said:
Oilchange said:
And if you think the team management didn’t give him various tweeks and critical times over Webbers car you’re deluded.
Not only that but he also got first choice of parts over webber
If you believe he got those tweeks and choices before Webber for any reason other than they felt they'd get better race results overall that way, then IMO you're mistaken.

He got those advantages because he'd already convinced them, most likely through his results or possibly I suppose he's a better debater than driver... that he'd achieve more with them than Webber would.

Regarding Damon Hill "losing his bottle". He didn't use those words exactly, but that's what he admitted to in his book, and it's why he retired. His personal worries about his safety were killing his motivation to race formula 1 cars and impacting his performance. Respect to the man for openly saying that too.


Hungrymc

4,081 posts

82 months

Thursday 12th September
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Poppiecock said:
(Cue responses that when Lewis wins it’s because he’s awesome and Seb only wins because he has the fastest car)
I cant keep up, I thought everyone's Gran would be 10X WDC in that Merc and the Ferrari is a midfield dog ?
:-)

37chevy

2,820 posts

101 months

Thursday 12th September
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kiseca said:
If you believe he got those tweeks and choices before Webber for any reason other than they felt they'd get better race results overall that way, then IMO you're mistaken.

He got those advantages because he'd already convinced them, most likely through his results or possibly I suppose he's a better debater than driver... that he'd achieve more with them than Webber would.
Absolutely no doubt about that. In that car, he was the better driver

TheDeuce

2,797 posts

11 months

Thursday 12th September
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LaurasOtherHalf said:
https://youtu.be/RhM_04gQQkk

This isn’t that long ago and I still rate it as one of the best Qually laps I’ve witnessed.

That talent is still there, it just can’t be utilised in the current car.

For all his failings as a driver, when he’s on form he’s just about unstoppable, I suppose the juxtaposition is in his character is what happened just 24 hours later.
Exactly. No one on these forums that I respect the opinion of has ever said he lacks in the talent department. But his control and composure is as lacking as he is talented. Lewis AND Mercedes win out because they have a huge budget which creates the potential to dominate, and they have the composure to make the most of that potential. Seb and Ferrari also have a huge budget... But as we keep seeing, either he as a driver or the team make silly mistakes or bad reactions under pressure. Their car isn't as good all round as the Merc, but in truth it's not that far off. The difference in points is down to more than the car and Seb's race composure has been a big part of that shortfall.

He's a hugely talented driver, as good as anyone. But he's not a 'good' driver compared to the best as he's easily frustrated and when rattled, his composure evaporates. I like the guy a lot but I have to say, he's flawed. I'd wish him to remain in F1 because he's a character and is impressive often enough, but I can see that both he and his team must start to question his ability to sustain a title challenge in anything less than an unbeatable car.


kiseca

7,560 posts

164 months

Friday 13th September
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TheDeuce said:
Exactly. No one on these forums that I respect the opinion of has ever said he lacks in the talent department. But his control and composure is as lacking as he is talented. Lewis AND Mercedes win out because they have a huge budget which creates the potential to dominate, and they have the composure to make the most of that potential. Seb and Ferrari also have a huge budget... But as we keep seeing, either he as a driver or the team make silly mistakes or bad reactions under pressure. Their car isn't as good all round as the Merc, but in truth it's not that far off. The difference in points is down to more than the car and Seb's race composure has been a big part of that shortfall.

He's a hugely talented driver, as good as anyone. But he's not a 'good' driver compared to the best as he's easily frustrated and when rattled, his composure evaporates. I like the guy a lot but I have to say, he's flawed. I'd wish him to remain in F1 because he's a character and is impressive often enough, but I can see that both he and his team must start to question his ability to sustain a title challenge in anything less than an unbeatable car.
I don't disagree... and yet he didn't walk to his first title. That came down to the wire and he was was under big pressure in the last race, but held his nerve then to get the championship while Alonso The Great (I'm not being entirely ironic there) idled around behind Petrov for half the race. And yet it's easy to find incidents when Seb has folded under pressure. He has his moments when he's equal to anyone on the track. He just doesn't have enough of them.

HustleRussell

16,791 posts

105 months

Friday 13th September
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TheDeuce said:
He's a hugely talented driver, as good as anyone. But he's not a 'good' driver compared to the best
You seem quite conflicted smile

Kraken

1,109 posts

145 months

Friday 13th September
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kiseca said:
I don't disagree... and yet he didn't walk to his first title. That came down to the wire and he was was under big pressure in the last race, but held his nerve then to get the championship while Alonso The Great (I'm not being entirely ironic there) idled around behind Petrov for half the race. And yet it's easy to find incidents when Seb has folded under pressure. He has his moments when he's equal to anyone on the track. He just doesn't have enough of them.
Idled behind is a bit strong. That was an era when it was accepted that a car had to be at least 1.5 seconds a lap faster than the car in front to have a chance of overtaking. That was one of the primary reasons we ended up with DRS.