Sebastian Vettel
Discussion
37chevy said:
Oilchange said:
And if you think the team management didn’t give him various tweeks and critical times over Webbers car you’re deluded.
Not only that but he also got first choice of parts over webberHe got those advantages because he'd already convinced them, most likely through his results or possibly I suppose he's a better debater than driver... that he'd achieve more with them than Webber would.
Regarding Damon Hill "losing his bottle". He didn't use those words exactly, but that's what he admitted to in his book, and it's why he retired. His personal worries about his safety were killing his motivation to race formula 1 cars and impacting his performance. Respect to the man for openly saying that too.
kiseca said:
If you believe he got those tweeks and choices before Webber for any reason other than they felt they'd get better race results overall that way, then IMO you're mistaken.
He got those advantages because he'd already convinced them, most likely through his results or possibly I suppose he's a better debater than driver... that he'd achieve more with them than Webber would.
Absolutely no doubt about that. In that car, he was the better driverHe got those advantages because he'd already convinced them, most likely through his results or possibly I suppose he's a better debater than driver... that he'd achieve more with them than Webber would.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
https://youtu.be/RhM_04gQQkk
This isn’t that long ago and I still rate it as one of the best Qually laps I’ve witnessed.
That talent is still there, it just can’t be utilised in the current car.
For all his failings as a driver, when he’s on form he’s just about unstoppable, I suppose the juxtaposition is in his character is what happened just 24 hours later.
Exactly. No one on these forums that I respect the opinion of has ever said he lacks in the talent department. But his control and composure is as lacking as he is talented. Lewis AND Mercedes win out because they have a huge budget which creates the potential to dominate, and they have the composure to make the most of that potential. Seb and Ferrari also have a huge budget... But as we keep seeing, either he as a driver or the team make silly mistakes or bad reactions under pressure. Their car isn't as good all round as the Merc, but in truth it's not that far off. The difference in points is down to more than the car and Seb's race composure has been a big part of that shortfall.This isn’t that long ago and I still rate it as one of the best Qually laps I’ve witnessed.
That talent is still there, it just can’t be utilised in the current car.
For all his failings as a driver, when he’s on form he’s just about unstoppable, I suppose the juxtaposition is in his character is what happened just 24 hours later.
He's a hugely talented driver, as good as anyone. But he's not a 'good' driver compared to the best as he's easily frustrated and when rattled, his composure evaporates. I like the guy a lot but I have to say, he's flawed. I'd wish him to remain in F1 because he's a character and is impressive often enough, but I can see that both he and his team must start to question his ability to sustain a title challenge in anything less than an unbeatable car.
TheDeuce said:
Exactly. No one on these forums that I respect the opinion of has ever said he lacks in the talent department. But his control and composure is as lacking as he is talented. Lewis AND Mercedes win out because they have a huge budget which creates the potential to dominate, and they have the composure to make the most of that potential. Seb and Ferrari also have a huge budget... But as we keep seeing, either he as a driver or the team make silly mistakes or bad reactions under pressure. Their car isn't as good all round as the Merc, but in truth it's not that far off. The difference in points is down to more than the car and Seb's race composure has been a big part of that shortfall.
He's a hugely talented driver, as good as anyone. But he's not a 'good' driver compared to the best as he's easily frustrated and when rattled, his composure evaporates. I like the guy a lot but I have to say, he's flawed. I'd wish him to remain in F1 because he's a character and is impressive often enough, but I can see that both he and his team must start to question his ability to sustain a title challenge in anything less than an unbeatable car.
I don't disagree... and yet he didn't walk to his first title. That came down to the wire and he was was under big pressure in the last race, but held his nerve then to get the championship while Alonso The Great (I'm not being entirely ironic there) idled around behind Petrov for half the race. And yet it's easy to find incidents when Seb has folded under pressure. He has his moments when he's equal to anyone on the track. He just doesn't have enough of them. He's a hugely talented driver, as good as anyone. But he's not a 'good' driver compared to the best as he's easily frustrated and when rattled, his composure evaporates. I like the guy a lot but I have to say, he's flawed. I'd wish him to remain in F1 because he's a character and is impressive often enough, but I can see that both he and his team must start to question his ability to sustain a title challenge in anything less than an unbeatable car.
kiseca said:
I don't disagree... and yet he didn't walk to his first title. That came down to the wire and he was was under big pressure in the last race, but held his nerve then to get the championship while Alonso The Great (I'm not being entirely ironic there) idled around behind Petrov for half the race. And yet it's easy to find incidents when Seb has folded under pressure. He has his moments when he's equal to anyone on the track. He just doesn't have enough of them.
Idled behind is a bit strong. That was an era when it was accepted that a car had to be at least 1.5 seconds a lap faster than the car in front to have a chance of overtaking. That was one of the primary reasons we ended up with DRS.37chevy said:
kiseca said:
If you believe he got those tweeks and choices before Webber for any reason other than they felt they'd get better race results overall that way, then IMO you're mistaken.
He got those advantages because he'd already convinced them, most likely through his results or possibly I suppose he's a better debater than driver... that he'd achieve more with them than Webber would.
Absolutely no doubt about that. In that car, he was the better driverHe got those advantages because he'd already convinced them, most likely through his results or possibly I suppose he's a better debater than driver... that he'd achieve more with them than Webber would.
Teddy Lop said:
take another look at the drivers back then, especially webber - most of them looked malnourished as they struggled to keep their weight optimised, vettel however just suited the era and that's vettel really, he can drive a well resolved car super quick - and that RB was the best - but lacks some of what makes the likes of Hamilton or alonso "greats". But he got 4xWDC and so people, including ferrari, they put him in that class, but the truth is he's been shown up several times - he struggled to beat journeyman Webber, Danny R spanked his arse and now he's being shown up again by young leclerc now.
Can’t disagree with that either. I think the truth is somewhere in between.
On his day, in the right type of car, Vettel is very good indeed...he wouldn’t have 4 championships if he wasn’t. Where he falls down is the inability to adapt, so when things aren’t going his way or the car isn’t to his liking he falls short.
Let’s be honest, scrub out those 4 championships...start his career in 2014 and would Vettel still be driving in F1? I’m not so sure....
Put the number of mistakes onto another driver like gasly or grosjean and I think they would e shown the door.
37chevy said:
Can’t disagree with that either.
I think the truth is somewhere in between.
On his day, in the right type of car, Vettel is very good indeed...he wouldn’t have 4 championships if he wasn’t. Where he falls down is the inability to adapt, so when things aren’t going his way or the car isn’t to his liking he falls short.
Let’s be honest, scrub out those 4 championships...start his career in 2014 and would Vettel still be driving in F1? I’m not so sure....
Put the number of mistakes onto another driver like gasly or grosjean and I think they would e shown the door.
I can't say he's not good or even that he doesn't deserve 4xWDC - that's just F1.I think the truth is somewhere in between.
On his day, in the right type of car, Vettel is very good indeed...he wouldn’t have 4 championships if he wasn’t. Where he falls down is the inability to adapt, so when things aren’t going his way or the car isn’t to his liking he falls short.
Let’s be honest, scrub out those 4 championships...start his career in 2014 and would Vettel still be driving in F1? I’m not so sure....
Put the number of mistakes onto another driver like gasly or grosjean and I think they would e shown the door.
But I would say there are a few other quick but not great drivers, that particularly if they had his weight advantage in that car at that time, could probably have done the same job. Drivers like bottas, grosjean, Maldonado and more.
Wheras those same drivers in say schumachers shoes wouldn't be a 7xWDC. And I say that as someone who really isn't a schu fan!
Teddy Lop said:
But I would say there are a few other quick but not great drivers, that particularly if they had his weight advantage in that car at that time, could probably have done the same job. Drivers like bottas, grosjean, Maldonado and more.
Maldonado? The guy that crashed and caused more crashes than he saw chequered flags (slight exaggeration perhaps... but still) TheDeuce said:
Teddy Lop said:
But I would say there are a few other quick but not great drivers, that particularly if they had his weight advantage in that car at that time, could probably have done the same job. Drivers like bottas, grosjean, Maldonado and more.
Maldonado? The guy that crashed and caused more crashes than he saw chequered flags (slight exaggeration perhaps... but still) Teddy Lop said:
TheDeuce said:
Teddy Lop said:
But I would say there are a few other quick but not great drivers, that particularly if they had his weight advantage in that car at that time, could probably have done the same job. Drivers like bottas, grosjean, Maldonado and more.
Maldonado? The guy that crashed and caused more crashes than he saw chequered flags (slight exaggeration perhaps... but still) That said, whilst I don't condone recklessness in racing, many of the incidents were quite entertaining to re-watch, once it had been established that no one was hurt.
This one shows his talent combined with his failure to spot what was obviously going to happen if he tried to re-join the track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqc2uK0sTQw
TheDeuce said:
I do agree with all that. I would say that specifically Maldonado probably couldn't have been a 4 x WDC, even if he had the top car that worked for him perfectly, I just think he was hard wired in some way to take crazy chances. Smart enough bloke, but his reflex decisions were often just about the worst decisions possible.
That said, whilst I don't condone recklessness in racing, many of the incidents were quite entertaining to re-watch, once it had been established that no one was hurt.
This one shows his talent combined with his failure to spot what was obviously going to happen if he tried to re-join the track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqc2uK0sTQw
maybe he was a provocatively cheeky example but you get the essence...That said, whilst I don't condone recklessness in racing, many of the incidents were quite entertaining to re-watch, once it had been established that no one was hurt.
This one shows his talent combined with his failure to spot what was obviously going to happen if he tried to re-join the track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqc2uK0sTQw
If you’re going to claim a car advantage for Seb... Lewis has had an even bigger advantage over all the other teams.
Funny, isn’t it? If you end up in the right car at the right time you can walk to multiple titles. Especially in the modern era where you can’t relentlessly test (like Schumacher) to turn a dog into a winner.
Funny, isn’t it? If you end up in the right car at the right time you can walk to multiple titles. Especially in the modern era where you can’t relentlessly test (like Schumacher) to turn a dog into a winner.
Poppiecock said:
If you’re going to claim a car advantage for Seb... Lewis has had an even bigger advantage over all the other teams.
Funny, isn’t it? If you end up in the right car at the right time you can walk to multiple titles. Especially in the modern era where you can’t relentlessly test (like Schumacher) to turn a dog into a winner.
And around and around we go. it's pretty much always then the best car that wins the championship. At the moment the best car has clearly the best driver driving it. It's a privilege to watch the team and Hamilton at work.Funny, isn’t it? If you end up in the right car at the right time you can walk to multiple titles. Especially in the modern era where you can’t relentlessly test (like Schumacher) to turn a dog into a winner.
Oh, by the way, the last year that the WDC was not won by the WCC champions...2008, the driver? Hamilton.
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