The Official 2017 British Grand Prix Thread **Spoilers**
Discussion
48Valves said:
With 4 of us going for the weekend not being able to take a cooler bag in is going to be a pain or cost us a fortune buying food in the circuit.
If I were of a cynical persuasion, I might think this move is as much about raising revenue as it is about security.
I wonder what legal stand point they would have, if you demanded a refund of your ticket, if these restrictions where not clearly stated before purchase.If I were of a cynical persuasion, I might think this move is as much about raising revenue as it is about security.
I'm sure ticket sales would suffer & may suffer in the future, how can you legally prevent/restrict people bringing supplies who don't want to be exploited by 'captive audience' prices or limited to free tap water which I doubt will readily easy to find.
I bet anyone with dietary restrictions could make a legal standpoint same as disabled unable to stand but do not use a wheelchair refused taking in folding chairs.
You need to be able to eat, drink & sit if you choose economically, not Dick Turpin setting the financial requirements to do so.
FIA has apparently told the teams off. It appears that five teams have been pre-heating the hydraulic actuators in the suspension. The reason for this is to get the oil in the actuators to normal operating temperature - thus from lap 1 onwards the car has a consistent ride height and suspension performance.
This is against the rules - you cannot heat suspension components externally (i.e. hot air blowers/blankets/whatever).
Mercedes aren't bothered though, apparently their actuators are deliberately surrounded by (some suggest actually inside) the gearbox, guess what - you are allowed to heat gearbox oil (they won't actually work with cold oil in them). So, warming the gearbox also warms the actuators. Sneaky.
FIA have said that they can't do anything about this because, effectively the actuators are heated "accidentally".
I wonder if this will affect the race start ? especially if its cold and damp at Silverstone on Sunday, cold oil in the actuators means a lower than usual ride height and one would assume more compliance or "softer" dampening ?
This is against the rules - you cannot heat suspension components externally (i.e. hot air blowers/blankets/whatever).
Mercedes aren't bothered though, apparently their actuators are deliberately surrounded by (some suggest actually inside) the gearbox, guess what - you are allowed to heat gearbox oil (they won't actually work with cold oil in them). So, warming the gearbox also warms the actuators. Sneaky.
FIA have said that they can't do anything about this because, effectively the actuators are heated "accidentally".
I wonder if this will affect the race start ? especially if its cold and damp at Silverstone on Sunday, cold oil in the actuators means a lower than usual ride height and one would assume more compliance or "softer" dampening ?
DE15 CAT said:
48Valves said:
With 4 of us going for the weekend not being able to take a cooler bag in is going to be a pain or cost us a fortune buying food in the circuit.
If I were of a cynical persuasion, I might think this move is as much about raising revenue as it is about security.
I wonder what legal stand point they would have, if you demanded a refund of your ticket, if these restrictions where not clearly stated before purchase.If I were of a cynical persuasion, I might think this move is as much about raising revenue as it is about security.
I'm sure ticket sales would suffer & may suffer in the future, how can you legally prevent/restrict people bringing supplies who don't want to be exploited by 'captive audience' prices or limited to free tap water which I doubt will readily easy to find.
I bet anyone with dietary restrictions could make a legal standpoint same as disabled unable to stand but do not use a wheelchair refused taking in folding chairs.
You need to be able to eat, drink & sit if you choose economically, not Dick Turpin setting the financial requirements to do so.
DE15 CAT said:
48Valves said:
With 4 of us going for the weekend not being able to take a cooler bag in is going to be a pain or cost us a fortune buying food in the circuit.
If I were of a cynical persuasion, I might think this move is as much about raising revenue as it is about security.
I wonder what legal stand point they would have, if you demanded a refund of your ticket, if these restrictions where not clearly stated before purchase.If I were of a cynical persuasion, I might think this move is as much about raising revenue as it is about security.
I'm sure ticket sales would suffer & may suffer in the future, how can you legally prevent/restrict people bringing supplies who don't want to be exploited by 'captive audience' prices or limited to free tap water which I doubt will readily easy to find.
I bet anyone with dietary restrictions could make a legal standpoint same as disabled unable to stand but do not use a wheelchair refused taking in folding chairs.
You need to be able to eat, drink & sit if you choose economically, not Dick Turpin setting the financial requirements to do so.
Where exactly has anyone said you can't take food and drink in? All I've seen is a maximum bag size of 20 litres. Seems more than adequate.
Crafty_ said:
FIA has apparently told the teams off. It appears that five teams have been pre-heating the hydraulic actuators in the suspension. The reason for this is to get the oil in the actuators to normal operating temperature - thus from lap 1 onwards the car has a consistent ride height and suspension performance.
This is against the rules - you cannot heat suspension components externally (i.e. hot air blowers/blankets/whatever).
Mercedes aren't bothered though, apparently their actuators are deliberately surrounded by (some suggest actually inside) the gearbox, guess what - you are allowed to heat gearbox oil (they won't actually work with cold oil in them). So, warming the gearbox also warms the actuators. Sneaky.
FIA have said that they can't do anything about this because, effectively the actuators are heated "accidentally".
I wonder if this will affect the race start ? especially if its cold and damp at Silverstone on Sunday, cold oil in the actuators means a lower than usual ride height and one would assume more compliance or "softer" dampening ?
Cold oil makes hydraulics stiffer, not softer.This is against the rules - you cannot heat suspension components externally (i.e. hot air blowers/blankets/whatever).
Mercedes aren't bothered though, apparently their actuators are deliberately surrounded by (some suggest actually inside) the gearbox, guess what - you are allowed to heat gearbox oil (they won't actually work with cold oil in them). So, warming the gearbox also warms the actuators. Sneaky.
FIA have said that they can't do anything about this because, effectively the actuators are heated "accidentally".
I wonder if this will affect the race start ? especially if its cold and damp at Silverstone on Sunday, cold oil in the actuators means a lower than usual ride height and one would assume more compliance or "softer" dampening ?
It wont affect ride height as that is set by the base torsion bar settings, it will affect transient response.
48Valves said:
keekodog said:
Was just concerned that they weren't going to let you in with beer at all!
Beer is fine thankfully 
According to the terms and conditions:
7. SCL reserves the right to refuse admission and to remove persons from the Venue who do not comply with the Venue rules or these terms and conditions, who represents a security risk, nuisance or annoyance to the staging of the Event or who have in his or her possession prohibited items, which shall include but not be limited to alcoholic beverages, illegal drugs, chemicals of any kind, glass bottles, barbeques, ladders, laser pens, weapons or any offensive materials in whatever format. SCL further reserves the right to conduct security searches of persons and their belongings to ensure the safety of persons at the Event. Pass-outs and re-admissions to the Venue shall be granted at SCL’s discretion. Re-admission shall only be possible if a valid official pass-out is presented.
from here http://www.silverstone.co.uk/terms-and-conditions/...
So while you might get away with it, I'm not actually sure at all it's OK.
jsf said:
Crafty_ said:
FIA has apparently told the teams off. It appears that five teams have been pre-heating the hydraulic actuators in the suspension. The reason for this is to get the oil in the actuators to normal operating temperature - thus from lap 1 onwards the car has a consistent ride height and suspension performance.
This is against the rules - you cannot heat suspension components externally (i.e. hot air blowers/blankets/whatever).
Mercedes aren't bothered though, apparently their actuators are deliberately surrounded by (some suggest actually inside) the gearbox, guess what - you are allowed to heat gearbox oil (they won't actually work with cold oil in them). So, warming the gearbox also warms the actuators. Sneaky.
FIA have said that they can't do anything about this because, effectively the actuators are heated "accidentally".
I wonder if this will affect the race start ? especially if its cold and damp at Silverstone on Sunday, cold oil in the actuators means a lower than usual ride height and one would assume more compliance or "softer" dampening ?
Cold oil makes hydraulics stiffer, not softer.This is against the rules - you cannot heat suspension components externally (i.e. hot air blowers/blankets/whatever).
Mercedes aren't bothered though, apparently their actuators are deliberately surrounded by (some suggest actually inside) the gearbox, guess what - you are allowed to heat gearbox oil (they won't actually work with cold oil in them). So, warming the gearbox also warms the actuators. Sneaky.
FIA have said that they can't do anything about this because, effectively the actuators are heated "accidentally".
I wonder if this will affect the race start ? especially if its cold and damp at Silverstone on Sunday, cold oil in the actuators means a lower than usual ride height and one would assume more compliance or "softer" dampening ?
It wont affect ride height as that is set by the base torsion bar settings, it will affect transient response.
I don't think even with Jog dampers viscous oil would make anything sag.
CraigyMc said:
Is it?
According to the terms and conditions:
7. SCL reserves the right to refuse admission and to remove persons from the Venue who do not comply with the Venue rules or these terms and conditions, who represents a security risk, nuisance or annoyance to the staging of the Event or who have in his or her possession prohibited items, which shall include but not be limited to alcoholic beverages, illegal drugs, chemicals of any kind, glass bottles, barbeques, ladders, laser pens, weapons or any offensive materials in whatever format. SCL further reserves the right to conduct security searches of persons and their belongings to ensure the safety of persons at the Event. Pass-outs and re-admissions to the Venue shall be granted at SCL’s discretion. Re-admission shall only be possible if a valid official pass-out is presented.
from here http://www.silverstone.co.uk/terms-and-conditions/...
So while you might get away with it, I'm not actually sure at all it's OK.
Silverstone have been asked many times on their twitter feed if beer is allowed. The answer has always been yesAccording to the terms and conditions:
7. SCL reserves the right to refuse admission and to remove persons from the Venue who do not comply with the Venue rules or these terms and conditions, who represents a security risk, nuisance or annoyance to the staging of the Event or who have in his or her possession prohibited items, which shall include but not be limited to alcoholic beverages, illegal drugs, chemicals of any kind, glass bottles, barbeques, ladders, laser pens, weapons or any offensive materials in whatever format. SCL further reserves the right to conduct security searches of persons and their belongings to ensure the safety of persons at the Event. Pass-outs and re-admissions to the Venue shall be granted at SCL’s discretion. Re-admission shall only be possible if a valid official pass-out is presented.
from here http://www.silverstone.co.uk/terms-and-conditions/...
So while you might get away with it, I'm not actually sure at all it's OK.
48Valves said:
CraigyMc said:
Is it?
According to the terms and conditions:
7. SCL reserves the right to refuse admission and to remove persons from the Venue who do not comply with the Venue rules or these terms and conditions, who represents a security risk, nuisance or annoyance to the staging of the Event or who have in his or her possession prohibited items, which shall include but not be limited to alcoholic beverages, illegal drugs, chemicals of any kind, glass bottles, barbeques, ladders, laser pens, weapons or any offensive materials in whatever format. SCL further reserves the right to conduct security searches of persons and their belongings to ensure the safety of persons at the Event. Pass-outs and re-admissions to the Venue shall be granted at SCL’s discretion. Re-admission shall only be possible if a valid official pass-out is presented.
from here http://www.silverstone.co.uk/terms-and-conditions/...
So while you might get away with it, I'm not actually sure at all it's OK.
Silverstone have been asked many times on their twitter feed if beer is allowed. The answer has always been yesAccording to the terms and conditions:
7. SCL reserves the right to refuse admission and to remove persons from the Venue who do not comply with the Venue rules or these terms and conditions, who represents a security risk, nuisance or annoyance to the staging of the Event or who have in his or her possession prohibited items, which shall include but not be limited to alcoholic beverages, illegal drugs, chemicals of any kind, glass bottles, barbeques, ladders, laser pens, weapons or any offensive materials in whatever format. SCL further reserves the right to conduct security searches of persons and their belongings to ensure the safety of persons at the Event. Pass-outs and re-admissions to the Venue shall be granted at SCL’s discretion. Re-admission shall only be possible if a valid official pass-out is presented.
from here http://www.silverstone.co.uk/terms-and-conditions/...
So while you might get away with it, I'm not actually sure at all it's OK.
It's a f
ked up world.REALIST123 said:
DE15 CAT said:
48Valves said:
With 4 of us going for the weekend not being able to take a cooler bag in is going to be a pain or cost us a fortune buying food in the circuit.
If I were of a cynical persuasion, I might think this move is as much about raising revenue as it is about security.
I wonder what legal stand point they would have, if you demanded a refund of your ticket, if these restrictions where not clearly stated before purchase.If I were of a cynical persuasion, I might think this move is as much about raising revenue as it is about security.
I'm sure ticket sales would suffer & may suffer in the future, how can you legally prevent/restrict people bringing supplies who don't want to be exploited by 'captive audience' prices or limited to free tap water which I doubt will readily easy to find.
I bet anyone with dietary restrictions could make a legal standpoint same as disabled unable to stand but do not use a wheelchair refused taking in folding chairs.
You need to be able to eat, drink & sit if you choose economically, not Dick Turpin setting the financial requirements to do so.
Where exactly has anyone said you can't take food and drink in? All I've seen is a maximum bag size of 20 litres. Seems more than adequate.
Paragraph 4
"We do appreciate that you’re going to be with us on site for most of the day, but the less you bring, the quicker you’ll get through the gates. We encourage you to pack as little as you can and only bring essentials. It really will make things quicker. Once on site you will have access to free water and we have a massive range of food outlets that cater for every taste.
Paragraph 10
Furthermore, the news that food and drink will essentially be limited to that on sale inside the track, is not going down well.
I don't think for a second that they will enforce those rules, it's just a request that they hope as many people as possible will follow to make entry a bit smoother for all.
The Festival of Speed attempted a 100% bag check on the Thursday, by 7am Friday morning they'd given up.
Are they going to be measuring rucksacks? Of course not.
Interestingly, RIAT (same weekend) which is arguably far more sensitive an event hasn't added any last minute instructions to reduce the stuff you take in.
The Festival of Speed attempted a 100% bag check on the Thursday, by 7am Friday morning they'd given up.
Are they going to be measuring rucksacks? Of course not.
Interestingly, RIAT (same weekend) which is arguably far more sensitive an event hasn't added any last minute instructions to reduce the stuff you take in.
Derek Smith said:
RemaL said:
will be my first f1 race i've been to this weekend and looking forward to it.
I envy you your new experience. A modern GP is awesome. It's got very little in common with what you see on TV.sc0tt said:
RemaL said:
But fan of most motorsports. been to Moto gp and BSB races but always wanted to go to a F1 race. Wife paid( with my money ) for the hospitality for the sat so very excited
Where are you Remal? I did Brooklands suite a couple of years back.jsf said:
Cold oil makes hydraulics stiffer, not softer.
It wont affect ride height as that is set by the base torsion bar settings, it will affect transient response.
Force India engineer disagrees.It wont affect ride height as that is set by the base torsion bar settings, it will affect transient response.
translated article said:
Five teams have no more classic shock absorbers and stabilizers on the rear axle, but hydraulic actuators, with which the up and down movements of the car and its rolling behavior are controlled. They are usually hidden in the gearbox housing and are therefore invisible to the outside world. The teams will be Mercedes, Force India Red Bull, Toro Rosso and McLaren.
Samples and references from the competition showed that all or almost all of the teams with hydraulic suspensions preheated the oil in the hydraulic actuators. Also under Parc fermé conditions on Sunday afternoon in the garage. This changes the properties of the oil. The purpose of the exercise was either to manipulate the chassis characteristics for the race or to bring the ground clearance to the desired level at the start of the race. Ground clearance dependent on oil temperature
Force India was one of the teams that had preheated its hydraulic elements in the garage with hot air to bring the hydraulic oil to the temperature it would reach later in driving. Technician Andy Green does not deny the practice: "Our goal was to keep the temperature of the hydraulic oil and therefore the ground clearance constant. With cold oil, the vehicle is lower than when it is hot. Because the oil is warmed up during driving, you have to precisely calculate how you can adjust the ground clearance in the stand, so that the desired ground clearance is achieved later."
The FIA ??explained in Baku to all concerned teams that external preheating of chassis components is prohibited. By "external" is meant heating systems, which are connected to landing gear components. This violates the Parce fermé rules. It is a deliberate intervention in the chassis setup. It's like installing other dampers or stabilizers. After the GP Azerbaijan, the technicians were once again emphasized that preheating is no longer tolerated. Green groaned: "Without preheating, the drivers have to ride hard in the laps to the starting place so that the hydraulic oil heats up quickly. Only then can they feel if the balance of the car really fits."
Has the trickery come to an end? Not quite. There are artifices that can not be forbidden. Mercedes is supposed to have placed the hydraulic actuators so cleverly in the gearbox that they heat up almost "accidentally". It is assumed that gear oil conduits pass or pass through the actuators. The heat radiation thus influences the viscosity of the hydraulic oil. Preheating would be easy because each team can gear the gearbox in the booth, as often and as long as you want. The transmission oil and the surrounding environment are also heated. No handling against accidental heating
An FIA man confirmed to automotor and sport that such a practice would not be punishable: "We can not prescribe anyone where he builds his suspension components and what is in their environment. Theoretically, one could also alienate an exhaust manifold for heating. We can only intervene when the warm-up happens in an unnatural way."
Nothing can be seen from the outside. But the trick is to change the ground clearance and the hardness of the damping.
The competition was badly sounded after Mercedes got his tire problems under control, and after the break in Monte Carlo spoke of "new tools", which should help to overcome the tire riddle. Since then the fluctuations between training and race and the individual tire types are not so great. Anyone who can change the characteristics of the hydraulic dampers and stabilizers between training and racing in a clever way would always use the tires perfectly, depending on the task. The conspiracy theorists believe that the chassis is trimmed for the quick round in the training on hard, in the race rather directionally soft. To protect the tires.
There is only one way to make these Grauzone out of the world. Hydraulic suspensions are forbidden. That would go for 2018 only with unanimity. But 2019 is already on the agenda.
[\quote]
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/vorzei...
Samples and references from the competition showed that all or almost all of the teams with hydraulic suspensions preheated the oil in the hydraulic actuators. Also under Parc fermé conditions on Sunday afternoon in the garage. This changes the properties of the oil. The purpose of the exercise was either to manipulate the chassis characteristics for the race or to bring the ground clearance to the desired level at the start of the race. Ground clearance dependent on oil temperature
Force India was one of the teams that had preheated its hydraulic elements in the garage with hot air to bring the hydraulic oil to the temperature it would reach later in driving. Technician Andy Green does not deny the practice: "Our goal was to keep the temperature of the hydraulic oil and therefore the ground clearance constant. With cold oil, the vehicle is lower than when it is hot. Because the oil is warmed up during driving, you have to precisely calculate how you can adjust the ground clearance in the stand, so that the desired ground clearance is achieved later."
The FIA ??explained in Baku to all concerned teams that external preheating of chassis components is prohibited. By "external" is meant heating systems, which are connected to landing gear components. This violates the Parce fermé rules. It is a deliberate intervention in the chassis setup. It's like installing other dampers or stabilizers. After the GP Azerbaijan, the technicians were once again emphasized that preheating is no longer tolerated. Green groaned: "Without preheating, the drivers have to ride hard in the laps to the starting place so that the hydraulic oil heats up quickly. Only then can they feel if the balance of the car really fits."
Has the trickery come to an end? Not quite. There are artifices that can not be forbidden. Mercedes is supposed to have placed the hydraulic actuators so cleverly in the gearbox that they heat up almost "accidentally". It is assumed that gear oil conduits pass or pass through the actuators. The heat radiation thus influences the viscosity of the hydraulic oil. Preheating would be easy because each team can gear the gearbox in the booth, as often and as long as you want. The transmission oil and the surrounding environment are also heated. No handling against accidental heating
An FIA man confirmed to automotor and sport that such a practice would not be punishable: "We can not prescribe anyone where he builds his suspension components and what is in their environment. Theoretically, one could also alienate an exhaust manifold for heating. We can only intervene when the warm-up happens in an unnatural way."
Nothing can be seen from the outside. But the trick is to change the ground clearance and the hardness of the damping.
The competition was badly sounded after Mercedes got his tire problems under control, and after the break in Monte Carlo spoke of "new tools", which should help to overcome the tire riddle. Since then the fluctuations between training and race and the individual tire types are not so great. Anyone who can change the characteristics of the hydraulic dampers and stabilizers between training and racing in a clever way would always use the tires perfectly, depending on the task. The conspiracy theorists believe that the chassis is trimmed for the quick round in the training on hard, in the race rather directionally soft. To protect the tires.
There is only one way to make these Grauzone out of the world. Hydraulic suspensions are forbidden. That would go for 2018 only with unanimity. But 2019 is already on the agenda.
[\quote]
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/vorzei...
Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff