Mercedes to quit DTM

Author
Discussion

knowitall

Original Poster:

67 posts

106 months

Monday 24th July 2017
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corozin

2,680 posts

270 months

Monday 24th July 2017
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They were happy to do it when they were winning but I guess the prospect of continued hammering by BMW has sent them running to thier mummies.

To be fair the cost of competing in DTM has been silly for a many years and the series has hardly bothered to try and attract non-German marques has it? They set themselves up for a bit of a fall really.

AnotherClarkey

3,589 posts

188 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
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Good news, I am enjoying Formula E. Rosberg to drive for a few races?

patch5674

232 posts

111 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
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Wonder if they will use Formula E as a holding pen for their prospective F1 drivers.

Like Chelsea sending players to Vitesse until they have a need for them.

ZX10R NIN

27,494 posts

124 months

Thursday 27th July 2017
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Apparently DTM are looking to going down the Aussie Supercars regulations which would make sense as a cheaper less manufacturer dependent series.


Rude-boy

22,227 posts

232 months

Thursday 27th July 2017
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ZX10R NIN said:
Apparently DTM are looking to going down the Aussie Supercars regulations which would make sense as a cheaper less manufacturer dependent series.

They need to tie up with someone.

They have been trying to romance the Japanese for many years but that all seems to have fallen apart.

Would not surprise me if DTM doesn't go down the TRC route, and if it did then it would potentially cause the BTCC issues as there would be pressure on them to go to TCR regs. Yet as we know there is a TCR championship being set up for the UK for next year already....

knowitall

Original Poster:

67 posts

106 months

Thursday 27th July 2017
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Rude-boy said:
They need to tie up with someone.

They have been trying to romance the Japanese for many years but that all seems to have fallen apart.

Would not surprise me if DTM doesn't go down the TRC route, and if it did then it would potentially cause the BTCC issues as there would be pressure on them to go to TCR regs. Yet as we know there is a TCR championship being set up for the UK for next year already....
Huh? there is just no way DTM would lower themselves to such basic cars as TCR, which are below BTCC spec etc. Germany already has a TCR series anyway.

They need to tie up with the Japanese super GT.

rubystone

11,252 posts

258 months

Thursday 27th July 2017
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ZX10R NIN said:
Apparently DTM are looking to going down the Aussie Supercars regulations which would make sense as a cheaper less manufacturer dependent series.

They are a mile away from Aussie V8s right now. If they couldn't agree parity with SuperGT in Japan. They have zero chance with V8 Supercars. But the latter are at a crossroads right now so all bets are off....

ZX10R NIN

27,494 posts

124 months

Thursday 27th July 2017
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With Supercars allowing anything from a 2.0T to V8's I think it would be a good one to tie up with.

Havoc856-S

2,072 posts

178 months

Monday 31st July 2017
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I think the Germans are having a bit of a drama with the multiple recent emissions-gates etc and that's causing the mass ejection from motorsports.

Funnily enough for about the last year and a half there have been echos of DTM and Super GT (New JGTC) tying up across the boards/magazines/speculators etc.

The reality of life is somewhat bleaker.

Super GT is split into two class, 300 and 500.

SGT300 are more akin to GTE or GT3 euro specification but when the cars have come together on the track the mother chassis (a DOME prepared core chassis and engine package designed for SGT300 specifically and ready for rebodying into other car silhouettes e.g Lotus Evora, GT86) SGT300s seem to have the edge over GT3 and to a lesser extent the GTE, despite the GTE being the more technically superior car. An example of this is the BRZ and GT86 on the SGT300 roster. The 86 is a mother chassis car and the BRZ a GT3 compliant car. The 86 is normally out in front. This is probably the class where DTM would sit (500bhp).

Super GT500 is a whole different beast with a similar monocoque to DTM but with a 2.0 twin turbo engine that's been fed with crack milked from the teet of Godzilla. Output figures are in the region of c.700bhp (and that's probably conservative).

The performance disparity with SGT500 and cost associated is what has stopped DTM tying together in the past - stating the requirement to change (in order to be truly competitive) their tech and rework the cars is cost prohibitive compared to continuing in DTM as they were until at a minimum 2019.

You could also see that going from being one of two manufacturers in a premier, wholly German motorsport to the lower class or barely competitive in the higher class wouldn't be an acceptable prospect.

The NISMO commentators have been saying for a while now about how SGT500 cars have wanted (via JAF - Japanese FIA made up of automotive manufacturers) a match up with LMP2/1 - and have been refused by the FIA. Probably from the real and present threat that a Super GT500 car could upset some LMP2 teams and cause a bit of a stir in the European series.

I can't ever see DTM tying up with Super GT - much more likely the V8 Supercars as it's more in line with DTM performance and cost wise IMO - although DTM probably has a performance advantage that'd need mirroring by V8SC or thinning from DTM. Whether that's realistic or acceptable is another matter.

If they don't tie up both V8SC and DTM suffer a threat of going (down) under because they'll become unattractive long term to manufacturers and privateer teams, long before the fans realise its all over and give up on them.

Super GT however has seemingly gotten the right mix of outrageous and yet highly competitive cars - the last race at Sport Land Sudo was 81 laps in length, the racing was constant and the podium determined at literally the last corner. That's par for the course. It's popularity is at a high in Japan and the series regularly jets off to various countries for showcase races. They normally do at least one 6hr endurance race at Suzuka (this year it's 10hrs) .

Just a shame that aside from NISMO TV there doesn't appear to be any other broadcasters in the UK.


Edited by Havoc856-S on Monday 31st July 23:56

Cobrakai

9 posts

92 months

Tuesday 1st August 2017
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Sadly I don't see this ending well. I have been a fan of the DTM and Super GT for a long time. If the past tells us anything it's that two manufactures doesn't last.

Back in the days of the old DTM/ITC (95-96) that ended down to massive costs, poor attendance at the international rounds and Alfa Romeo/Opel left. This left Mercedes as the only manufacturer for the 1997 season.

Then in the mid to late 2000's the same thing happened again when Opel left just Mercedes and Audi until BMW joined the series in 2012.

Now with Porsche leaving WEC and Mercedes DTM both for Formula-E I cant help but think we are close to the DTM being in serious trouble.

The tie in with Super GT (Class 1 racing) has been spoken about for a few years now, the idea was to have all 6 manufactures competing on the same level with the same engine/regulations. From what i have read the big issue as to why this hasn't happened by now is down to the DTM dragging its heels on still using the old dinosaur v8 4.0 engines, super GT use 2.0 turbo charged ones that produce around 650bhp.

There are a number of differences to the race formats for both, with the DTM having just Hankook and Super GT having an open tyre format, the races are longer in super gt and there are also two drivers per car. I believe sorting out the rules on how this would have been ran would not have been the big issue here.

A couple of years ago a team from Audi Japan and BMW Japan both asked to have a DTM car to race in the Super GT. It never happened. The reason was that the DTM teams did not want their cars to complete as they knew they would have been beaten. It would however been interesting to see the speed/power differences, it may have helped to push the manufacturers into the right direction.

If things did change and the cars were all going to race each other there was to be a race in Germany and a race in Japan. It would have given the fans a taste of what was to come.

I see this as a massive opportunity missed as seeing the big three manufactures from both series race against each other could have been the best GT series in the world.

For anyone that has not seen the Super GT before, link below of the last race at Sugo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHZaoVmn0F4&t=...


ZX10R NIN

27,494 posts

124 months

Wednesday 2nd August 2017
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I think the Supercars formula would be a better fit as they will allow 2.0T four cylinder 3.0-3.5TT V6 V8 4.0TT 5.0 N/A all with a 600bhp limit.

The thing DTM might not like is that the cars have to have a silhouette closer to the road cars than DTM cars at present also a lot of components are shared across all platforms (for example they all use a Holden derived front end set up) but I think that would make DTM more interesting especially as you have the potential seeing a Panamera vs M5 vs Quattroporte vs Giulia vs E63 vs GS-F vs XF-R vs Kia Stinger vs Volvo S80 vs Mondeo vs Insignia vs Mazda6 etc.

You get my drift the shared platform/components makes it appealing to privateers but also to Manufacturers as it makes it an easier way to run a race team but also for them to back a privateer team such as ABT with an A6.

wsn03

1,923 posts

100 months

Wednesday 2nd August 2017
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Cobrakai said:
For anyone that has not seen the Super GT before, link below of the last race at Sugo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHZaoVmn0F4&t=...
Brilliant, thanks for posting that link, never seen this racing. What channel covers it?

Havoc856-S

2,072 posts

178 months

Wednesday 2nd August 2017
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NISMO TV on youtube currently - i haven't managed to find any other stations frown

I've posted a small Wiki in GT Racing listing some coverage for the series i follow: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

wsn03

1,923 posts

100 months

Thursday 3rd August 2017
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Havoc856-S said:
NISMO TV on youtube currently - i haven't managed to find any other stations frown

I've posted a small Wiki in GT Racing listing some coverage for the series i follow: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
I did find your link before I saw this post, very helpful. Thanks for the heads up, I shall keep an eye on NISMO. Cheers