Does F1 need to have Hybrid Engines?
Discussion
Agreed, definitely not.
No matter how F1 tries to appease the green lobby, it can only be seen as wasteful in resources. So far, the trickle down tech has been non-existent for everyday road cars.
The world of personal transport is going electric in the foreseeable future, plugin hybrids will be the alternative long distance cruiser.
Trying to be green in F1 is as daft as mandating plastic trainers in athletics to appease Vegans.
It is primarily an entertainment sport, it is more important to get that right, preferably by allowing cars to race close to each other. Using hybrid power as a "push to pass" aid, distorts the competetive element.
No matter how F1 tries to appease the green lobby, it can only be seen as wasteful in resources. So far, the trickle down tech has been non-existent for everyday road cars.
The world of personal transport is going electric in the foreseeable future, plugin hybrids will be the alternative long distance cruiser.
Trying to be green in F1 is as daft as mandating plastic trainers in athletics to appease Vegans.
It is primarily an entertainment sport, it is more important to get that right, preferably by allowing cars to race close to each other. Using hybrid power as a "push to pass" aid, distorts the competetive element.
Hybrid is nothing to do with pacifying the green lobby. It is about resource efficiency - producing more for less, preserving a natural resource with finite stocks.
'Green' is all about emissions and few people know this but F1 has been carbon neutral for about 15 years. If you compare the net carbon output of today's football matches around the world; that which is needed to transport fans to the grounds, and then times that by the number of 'football days' throughout the season and then compare that to F1, F's environmental impact is inconsequential.
Of course F1 doesn't 'need' Hybrid but for right or wrong reasons, the sport has become tightly aligned with the motor industry and that is most definitely following a Hybrid route which is a stepping stone to full electric. F1 positions itself as the pinnacle of motorsport and of the motoring world so reverting to non-hybrid engines in whatever form is a retrograde step that will undermine its value to the wider world.
The debate isn't so much about whether the hybrid engines are good for the sport but whether F1 should simply be a technologically-led sport for sports sake or whether it should retain its alignment to the motor industry. The market itself will determine this. Formula E is currently very bland but this will not always be the case. It will improve. It will get faster and more spectacular and the manufacturers are already leaning heavily towards what is clearly the future.
At some point over the next 20 years or so, we will see either F1 and FE merging or F1 reverting to a more traditional spec; a formula for the fans but with FE being the dominant series in terms of global popularity. Either way, we'll get either a highly technical, interesting and exciting F1/FE combo or the choice of two leading formulae. Neither in my view would be a bad thing.
'Green' is all about emissions and few people know this but F1 has been carbon neutral for about 15 years. If you compare the net carbon output of today's football matches around the world; that which is needed to transport fans to the grounds, and then times that by the number of 'football days' throughout the season and then compare that to F1, F's environmental impact is inconsequential.
Of course F1 doesn't 'need' Hybrid but for right or wrong reasons, the sport has become tightly aligned with the motor industry and that is most definitely following a Hybrid route which is a stepping stone to full electric. F1 positions itself as the pinnacle of motorsport and of the motoring world so reverting to non-hybrid engines in whatever form is a retrograde step that will undermine its value to the wider world.
The debate isn't so much about whether the hybrid engines are good for the sport but whether F1 should simply be a technologically-led sport for sports sake or whether it should retain its alignment to the motor industry. The market itself will determine this. Formula E is currently very bland but this will not always be the case. It will improve. It will get faster and more spectacular and the manufacturers are already leaning heavily towards what is clearly the future.
At some point over the next 20 years or so, we will see either F1 and FE merging or F1 reverting to a more traditional spec; a formula for the fans but with FE being the dominant series in terms of global popularity. Either way, we'll get either a highly technical, interesting and exciting F1/FE combo or the choice of two leading formulae. Neither in my view would be a bad thing.
rdjohn said:
Agreed, definitely not.
No matter how F1 tries to appease the green lobby, it can only be seen as wasteful in resources. So far, the trickle down tech has been non-existent for everyday road cars.
The world of personal transport is going electric in the foreseeable future, plugin hybrids will be the alternative long distance cruiser.
Trying to be green in F1 is as daft as mandating plastic trainers in athletics to appease Vegans.
It is primarily an entertainment sport, it is more important to get that right, preferably by allowing cars to race close to each other. Using hybrid power as a "push to pass" aid, distorts the competetive element.
Exactly. Well put.No matter how F1 tries to appease the green lobby, it can only be seen as wasteful in resources. So far, the trickle down tech has been non-existent for everyday road cars.
The world of personal transport is going electric in the foreseeable future, plugin hybrids will be the alternative long distance cruiser.
Trying to be green in F1 is as daft as mandating plastic trainers in athletics to appease Vegans.
It is primarily an entertainment sport, it is more important to get that right, preferably by allowing cars to race close to each other. Using hybrid power as a "push to pass" aid, distorts the competetive element.
The cost of these hybrid systems are astonishing yet F1 keeps banning testing etc. to save money.
If the cars did not have these hybrid systems then F1 would be much cheaper and less complex and would stop the engine penalty farce.
Just look at what these modern engines consist of
The power unit is deemed to consist of six separate elements: the internal combustion engine (ICE), the motor generator unit-kinetic (MGU-K), the motor generator unit-heat (MGU-H), the energy store (ES), turbocharger (TC) and control electronics (CE).
Crazy
rdjohn said:
It is primarily an entertainment sport, it is more important to get that right, preferably by allowing cars to race close to each other. Using hybrid power as a "push to pass" aid, distorts the competetive element.
Agree. Boxing won't switch to paper gloves either. For box office success F1 needs to be loud, close racing and aspirational. Marques like Aston Martin joining is a good sign.As for FE becoming a box office smash, it's doubtful. May well transpire to become racing's equivalent of Sky 3D !
glazbagun said:
Depends if they want big manufacturer support or not. IIRC, Renault and Mercedes both wanted to go the hybrid route, I think it may have been a factor in the return of Honda, too. Weren't they initially talking about 4 cyl turbos before Ferrari shot that one down?
I think the 4-cylinder engines were to attract VW and some "world engine" nonsense. Once VW realised they wouldn't be guaranteed easy victories they dropped out, Ferrari, Merc and all of the circuit owners complained about the lack of relevance and noise. Because it's illegal to admit you made a mistake, a compromise was made and we got the crappy V6 turbos instead of just keeping V8s.StevieBee said:
Hybrid is nothing to do with pacifying the green lobby. It is about resource efficiency - producing more for less, preserving a natural resource with finite stocks.
'Green' is all about emissions and few people know this but F1 has been carbon neutral for about 15 years. If you compare the net carbon output of today's football matches around the world; that which is needed to transport fans to the grounds, and then times that by the number of 'football days' throughout the season and then compare that to F1, F's environmental impact is inconsequential.
Of course F1 doesn't 'need' Hybrid but for right or wrong reasons, the sport has become tightly aligned with the motor industry and that is most definitely following a Hybrid route which is a stepping stone to full electric. F1 positions itself as the pinnacle of motorsport and of the motoring world so reverting to non-hybrid engines in whatever form is a retrograde step that will undermine its value to the wider world.
The debate isn't so much about whether the hybrid engines are good for the sport but whether F1 should simply be a technologically-led sport for sports sake or whether it should retain its alignment to the motor industry. The market itself will determine this. Formula E is currently very bland but this will not always be the case. It will improve. It will get faster and more spectacular and the manufacturers are already leaning heavily towards what is clearly the future.
At some point over the next 20 years or so, we will see either F1 and FE merging or F1 reverting to a more traditional spec; a formula for the fans but with FE being the dominant series in terms of global popularity. Either way, we'll get either a highly technical, interesting and exciting F1/FE combo or the choice of two leading formulae. Neither in my view would be a bad thing.
You may find these two viewpoints interesting 'Green' is all about emissions and few people know this but F1 has been carbon neutral for about 15 years. If you compare the net carbon output of today's football matches around the world; that which is needed to transport fans to the grounds, and then times that by the number of 'football days' throughout the season and then compare that to F1, F's environmental impact is inconsequential.
Of course F1 doesn't 'need' Hybrid but for right or wrong reasons, the sport has become tightly aligned with the motor industry and that is most definitely following a Hybrid route which is a stepping stone to full electric. F1 positions itself as the pinnacle of motorsport and of the motoring world so reverting to non-hybrid engines in whatever form is a retrograde step that will undermine its value to the wider world.
The debate isn't so much about whether the hybrid engines are good for the sport but whether F1 should simply be a technologically-led sport for sports sake or whether it should retain its alignment to the motor industry. The market itself will determine this. Formula E is currently very bland but this will not always be the case. It will improve. It will get faster and more spectacular and the manufacturers are already leaning heavily towards what is clearly the future.
At some point over the next 20 years or so, we will see either F1 and FE merging or F1 reverting to a more traditional spec; a formula for the fans but with FE being the dominant series in terms of global popularity. Either way, we'll get either a highly technical, interesting and exciting F1/FE combo or the choice of two leading formulae. Neither in my view would be a bad thing.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/56953/f1-already...
http://theconversation.com/the-race-to-make-formul...
Buying carbon credits does not count, in my view. The racing accounts for 0.3% of the carbon dioxide produced. Like football fans, travelling half way round the world to Singapore, air freighting the show ever 2-weeks and millions watching 4-hours of television worldwide, consumes way more resources than the race.
Introducing Hybrid PUs has had the effect of driving away fans, so perhaps you can count that as a positive.
FE has been much more successful than I imagined it could be, but having to bring a second car to complete the race distance highlights the shortcoming of EVs with current technology. Hopefully manufacturers getting involved will help bring about significant improvements, but as a mass entertainment show, it is failing quite badly.
I don't see it being anywhere like F1 was in popularity when Bernie took control over more than 40-years ago. It still has a very long way to go.
I don't think the issue is with the engines themselves (I like them and the tech they use) but the fact the FIA make using them such hard work. More in season testing, more development and non of this penalty nonsense for using too many engines and it would be much better and would help the likes of Renault and Honda, and if they can get it right then other manufacturers may be interested
SteBrown91 said:
I don't think the issue is with the engines themselves (I like them and the tech they use) but the fact the FIA make using them such hard work. More in season testing, more development and non of this penalty nonsense for using too many engines and it would be much better and would help the likes of Renault and Honda, and if they can get it right then other manufacturers may be interested
Hard to see why manufacturers would be particularly interested; for the real world it would appear to be a dead end, with recent government statements.
Allowing the freedoms you suggest would only make it a more expensive dead end.
ked. Ask Honda. Revert to NA engines immediately.Definitely no !
someone's 'vanity project' !
As already mentioned, engines are way too expensive/complex so there's no way any new manufacturer of engines will bother entering the series
Obviously, with the revised engines coming in the not too distant future, there's really no point anyway
someone's 'vanity project' !
As already mentioned, engines are way too expensive/complex so there's no way any new manufacturer of engines will bother entering the series
Obviously, with the revised engines coming in the not too distant future, there's really no point anyway
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