The Official 2017 US Grand Prix Thread **Spoilers**
Discussion
In my view, that stewards decision has done the sport of F1 a great deal of harm.
The track limits rule was broken throughout every practise and qualifying session and the stewards raised no objection or imposed any penalties throughout those sessions.
To totally ruin the climax of a great race by such an arbitrary and inconsistent penalty is beyond the pale. As Mark Webber commented on the Ch 4 coverage, "It was a st decision"!
My commiserations to young Max Verstappen.
What a brilliant drive.
The track limits rule was broken throughout every practise and qualifying session and the stewards raised no objection or imposed any penalties throughout those sessions.
To totally ruin the climax of a great race by such an arbitrary and inconsistent penalty is beyond the pale. As Mark Webber commented on the Ch 4 coverage, "It was a st decision"!
My commiserations to young Max Verstappen.
What a brilliant drive.
MitchT said:
I saw at least two instances of drivers maintaining position in this race by exceeding track limits. No penalties there. Some consistency would be good.
Horner just mentioned exactly this on Sky, specifically Bottas on Daniel. I haven’t watch it back yet but I seem to remember Bottas going very wide on at least one occasion and maintaining position because of it.Here we go, Bottas gained this place back shortly after this...
Edited by ukaskew on Sunday 22 October 23:03
CoolHands said:
Nobody mentioning bottas?
I think he’s for the chop.
Maybe people will give Rosberg a bit more respect now... No doubt Lewis was better but still Rosberg deserves a bit more credit for competing hard. Bottas already looks like a broken man.. yeah ok he has had a couple of wins but since the summer he looks exactly like the driver who was struggling to beat Massa. I think he’s for the chop.
Strongly suspect that Ocon or Ricciardo could be on Mercedes 2019 shopping list.
ukaskew said:
MitchT said:
I saw at least two instances of drivers maintaining position in this race by exceeding track limits. No penalties there. Some consistency would be good.
Horner just mentioned exactly this on Sky, specifically Bottas on Daniel. I haven’t watch it back yet but I seem to remember Bottas going very wide on at least one occasion and maintaining position because of it.VolvoT5 said:
Maybe people will give Rosberg a bit more respect now... No doubt Lewis was better but still Rosberg deserves a bit more credit for competing hard. Bottas looks like a broken man.. yeah ok he has had a couple of wins but since the summer he looks exactly like the driver who was struggling to beat Massa.
Strongly suspect that Ocon or Ricciardo could be on Mercedes 2019 shopping list.
Or even 2018?Strongly suspect that Ocon or Ricciardo could be on Mercedes 2019 shopping list.
C70R said:
And that was the line that the stewards (quite clearly) chose to draw this weekend.
Bottas on Ricciardo, kept his foot in after losing the position (and that white line isn’t even the track limit, that’s out of shot!) and then gained it back a few seconds later. They didn’t even investigate this:Been watching the race recorded and slightly behind live. Great race all the way through for me, messed up by the decision on Max.
All the way through the messages came up about things being looked at and no penalty given, like Riccardo/Bottas. Then the 5 seconds for Ericsson/Magnussen which was fair enough because there was contact. Then Max get 5 secs for the overtake.
Pants.
All the way through the messages came up about things being looked at and no penalty given, like Riccardo/Bottas. Then the 5 seconds for Ericsson/Magnussen which was fair enough because there was contact. Then Max get 5 secs for the overtake.
Pants.
Roofless Toothless said:
Some of you guys want to be careful you don't get what you are wishing for.
Are you trying to say that every time a driver goes in too hot into a corner and runs out wide over the exit kerb they should get a penalty? That would be consistency, wouldn't it?
Only they would be racking up 5 second penalties like £200 for passing Go in Monopoly and nobody would know what was going on.
There have been instances this season when the stewards considered that straying wide on the outside of certain corners did give an advantage and warned the drivers about it. The rest of the time no advantage was deemed to be gained, and this was common sense.
At the end of today's race Verstappen passed off track on the inside of a corner, passing a driver who was confining himself correctly to the track limits. He asked for exactly what he got.
100% agree.Are you trying to say that every time a driver goes in too hot into a corner and runs out wide over the exit kerb they should get a penalty? That would be consistency, wouldn't it?
Only they would be racking up 5 second penalties like £200 for passing Go in Monopoly and nobody would know what was going on.
There have been instances this season when the stewards considered that straying wide on the outside of certain corners did give an advantage and warned the drivers about it. The rest of the time no advantage was deemed to be gained, and this was common sense.
At the end of today's race Verstappen passed off track on the inside of a corner, passing a driver who was confining himself correctly to the track limits. He asked for exactly what he got.
I don’t think people are being serious when they compare over cooking an entry to mess up your exit - vs - throwing your car up the inside of another and going fully off track to make the pass. They can’t be, but I understand people being upset, it was a great drive by Max but he caught Kimi too late and the pass couldn’t be made legally.
‘If they aren’t gaining an advantage why do they keep doing it’ ... the same reason they lock wheels / run wide / miss apexes / oversteer / spin up the wheels etc etc... mistakes.... The stewards look pretty closely at what happens on those corner exits where they go out too wide, if there is time to be gained they’ll give an instruction on that corner. I don’t think on turn 19 many were able to keep the throttle open as they crossed and re-crossed the curbs... but hey ho.
I understand Horner being upset, but he’s talking nonsense to say the fans won’t understand it. patronising pillock. I’m pretty sure most understand it.
VolvoT5 said:
Well know that Salo is no fan of Raikkonen.
A controversial decision that could have been avoided if only the stewards had shown consistency over track limits earlier in the weekend. The replays clearly show Kimi had positioned his car well and Max was all 4 off track to overtake... that is against the rules but then again the stewards had been letting everyone get away with that kind of thing all weekend, so why suddenly enforce a penalty at the last moment in the most dramatic and controversial way?
I think it was the correct call but at the same time in the bigger picture it is just another example of F1 shooting itself in the foot. They need to make these drivers treat track limits like it is a brick wall... cross all 4 over and it is a penalty. Surely there is the technology to consistently enforce that with sensors on the cars or something?
Oh and fwiw I am a big fan of both drivers but I know Kimi is disliked by many for being a waste of a Ferrari seat - I think that influences opinion too much. Imagine the uproar if Vettel had passed Hamilton like that on the last lap.
Also IMO it is about time the stewards set out some rules for wheel to wheel combat because it seems to me some drivers like Ricciardo and Magnussen are just forcing guys off track all the time.
They already have the technology to stamp this out but they only use it in the lower formula's!!!A controversial decision that could have been avoided if only the stewards had shown consistency over track limits earlier in the weekend. The replays clearly show Kimi had positioned his car well and Max was all 4 off track to overtake... that is against the rules but then again the stewards had been letting everyone get away with that kind of thing all weekend, so why suddenly enforce a penalty at the last moment in the most dramatic and controversial way?
I think it was the correct call but at the same time in the bigger picture it is just another example of F1 shooting itself in the foot. They need to make these drivers treat track limits like it is a brick wall... cross all 4 over and it is a penalty. Surely there is the technology to consistently enforce that with sensors on the cars or something?
Oh and fwiw I am a big fan of both drivers but I know Kimi is disliked by many for being a waste of a Ferrari seat - I think that influences opinion too much. Imagine the uproar if Vettel had passed Hamilton like that on the last lap.
Also IMO it is about time the stewards set out some rules for wheel to wheel combat because it seems to me some drivers like Ricciardo and Magnussen are just forcing guys off track all the time.
Edited by VolvoT5 on Sunday 22 October 22:34
Roofless Toothless said:
Some of you guys want to be careful you don't get what you are wishing for.
Are you trying to say that every time a driver goes in too hot into a corner and runs out wide over the exit kerb they should get a penalty? That would be consistency, wouldn't it?
Only they would be racking up 5 second penalties like £200 for passing Go in Monopoly and nobody would know what was going on.
There have been instances this season when the stewards considered that straying wide on the outside of certain corners did give an advantage and warned the drivers about it. The rest of the time no advantage was deemed to be gained, and this was common sense.
At the end of today's race Verstappen passed off track on the inside of a corner, passing a driver who was confining himself correctly to the track limits. He asked for exactly what he got.
In qualifying they lose that time & on race day do it three times in the race & you'll be trundling through the pitlane it's that simple.Are you trying to say that every time a driver goes in too hot into a corner and runs out wide over the exit kerb they should get a penalty? That would be consistency, wouldn't it?
Only they would be racking up 5 second penalties like £200 for passing Go in Monopoly and nobody would know what was going on.
There have been instances this season when the stewards considered that straying wide on the outside of certain corners did give an advantage and warned the drivers about it. The rest of the time no advantage was deemed to be gained, and this was common sense.
At the end of today's race Verstappen passed off track on the inside of a corner, passing a driver who was confining himself correctly to the track limits. He asked for exactly what he got.
C70R said:
ukaskew said:
I agree with the decision (and can’t see how anyone wouldn’t, after the two angles shown on Sky), but, how is actually any different to, say...
- Danny Ric straightlining one of the esses (all 4 wheels off) to get closer to Bottas.
- Several examples of drivers losing position on the inside, but hanging it out wide (all 4 wheels off) to keep momentum going and have track position on the switchback.
Sure, they aren’t clear cut overtakes off track as Max was, but fundamentally they’re still gaining an advantage and at the very least helping them to have the opportunity to gain a position.
And that was the line that the stewards (quite clearly) chose to draw this weekend.- Danny Ric straightlining one of the esses (all 4 wheels off) to get closer to Bottas.
- Several examples of drivers losing position on the inside, but hanging it out wide (all 4 wheels off) to keep momentum going and have track position on the switchback.
Sure, they aren’t clear cut overtakes off track as Max was, but fundamentally they’re still gaining an advantage and at the very least helping them to have the opportunity to gain a position.
Can we just move on, and congratulate Mercedes on a 4th WCC and Max on an excellent drive.
And clearly gained an advantage.
ukaskew said:
Bottas on Ricciardo, kept his foot in after losing the position (and that white line isn’t even the track limit, that’s out of shot!) and then gained it back a few seconds later. They didn’t even investigate this:
Has Bottas gained an advantage here? Or minimized his disadvantage after being run out to the outside curb (perfectly fair for DR to do that by the way)?You have to see the difference with throwing it up the inside and cutting a corner off track?
None of which changes that Max was driver of the day.
When I raced Mazdas, they had sensors in the green strips passed the kerbs at a couple of UK tracks and Spa.
They were total bds and I had at least 5 fast laps cancelled because of track limits. And a couple of black/white flags.
Then you could turn on F1 and watch them regularly have all 4 wheels off track. The inconsistency isn't just at F1, it's across all Motorsport unfortunately.
They were total bds and I had at least 5 fast laps cancelled because of track limits. And a couple of black/white flags.
Then you could turn on F1 and watch them regularly have all 4 wheels off track. The inconsistency isn't just at F1, it's across all Motorsport unfortunately.
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