The Official 2017 US Grand Prix Thread **Spoilers**

The Official 2017 US Grand Prix Thread **Spoilers**

Author
Discussion

pjwind

29 posts

174 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
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I have seen quotes from Hamilton that he thinks Verstappen deserved a penalty. I think Hamilton also made some fine remarks about the design of modern circuits allowing drivers to get away with this sort of manoeuvre. There should be some difference between the black stuff on circuit and being off the circuit. As Hamilton suggested, a strip of grass would be enough to encourage drivers to stay on line. I agree with most pundits that Kimi was turning in. He had a right to do so, he was in front. If it had been a wall next to the apex Max would have braked or modulated his throttle but instead he kept it flat and steered off the circuit.

I think the overall issue is fair sportsmanship in F1. This has been successively eroded particularly as cars have got safer. I think it will do Max a world of good if the authorities crack down on his antics now while he is young. It will seem unfair to him for a while but eventually he will become a great champion who achieves his results in the right way. Sure some of what he does makes for a great spectacle but wouldn't it be much better to see a fair pass or for him to defend without threatening to crash the other driver. I still remember his move on Kimi Raikkonen at Spa last year in the middle of the Kemmel straight. That was chilling and showed scant regard for his own mortality let alone Raikkonen's. Hamilton is someone who can race spectacularly without the outright bullying behaviour of Verstappen and there are others like Ricciardo. Verstappen carries on like he has some kind of right to win and I assume he has been told by his doting parents that he does have some kind of right. We often see in the sporting world that parents of these stars have nurtured the development of a great sporting talent but not a great human being. The world needs to let him know that no right to win exists, he should respect his opponents and he should look to win on sporting merit or be gracious in defeat. That is sport. If he wants to compete in something with no rules, I suggest some kind of underground bare knuckle fighting.

Vaud

50,289 posts

154 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
quotequote all
pjwind said:
I have seen quotes from Hamilton that he thinks Verstappen deserved a penalty. I think Hamilton also made some fine remarks about the design of modern circuits allowing drivers to get away with this sort of manoeuvre. There should be some difference between the black stuff on circuit and being off the circuit. As Hamilton suggested, a strip of grass would be enough to encourage drivers to stay on line. I agree with most pundits that Kimi was turning in. He had a right to do so, he was in front. If it had been a wall next to the apex Max would have braked or modulated his throttle but instead he kept it flat and steered off the circuit.

I think the overall issue is fair sportsmanship in F1. This has been successively eroded particularly as cars have got safer. I think it will do Max a world of good if the authorities crack down on his antics now while he is young. It will seem unfair to him for a while but eventually he will become a great champion who achieves his results in the right way. Sure some of what he does makes for a great spectacle but wouldn't it be much better to see a fair pass or for him to defend without threatening to crash the other driver. I still remember his move on Kimi Raikkonen at Spa last year in the middle of the Kemmel straight. That was chilling and showed scant regard for his own mortality let alone Raikkonen's. Hamilton is someone who can race spectacularly without the outright bullying behaviour of Verstappen and there are others like Ricciardo. Verstappen carries on like he has some kind of right to win and I assume he has been told by his doting parents that he does have some kind of right. We often see in the sporting world that parents of these stars have nurtured the development of a great sporting talent but not a great human being. The world needs to let him know that no right to win exists, he should respect his opponents and he should look to win on sporting merit or be gracious in defeat. That is sport. If he wants to compete in something with no rules, I suggest some kind of underground bare knuckle fighting.
I dont think it has anything to do with his age or experience per se. Lots of (great) drivers have been similarly (or more) aggressive when they were older.

stiII_I_undomyseatbelts

210 posts

77 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
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One of the vids I've watched clearly shows that Max could have stayed with two wheels on the track and he would have still made it. It's the design of the track and the inconsistent policing that makes me piss boil.

stiII_I_undomyseatbelts

210 posts

77 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
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Vaud said:
I dont think it has anything to do with his age or experience per se. Lots of (great) drivers have been similarly (or more) aggressive when they were older.
E.g. Michael Schumacher

Vaud

50,289 posts

154 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
quotequote all
stiII_I_undomyseatbelts said:
Vaud said:
I dont think it has anything to do with his age or experience per se. Lots of (great) drivers have been similarly (or more) aggressive when they were older.
E.g. Michael Schumacher
Quite. Senna. Vettel. Nelson Piquet. James Hunt....

angrymoby

2,605 posts

177 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
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InductionRoar said:
You think Niki Lauda obtains his information from the C4 coverage? I'm sure the Mercedes team operate at a higher level than that. Undoubtedly, they have the PH thread open on their laptops and gain the insight of the experts on here rather than their in-house statisticians.
Surprisingly, teams only have access to their own teams FOM onboard feeds & telemetry.

But it's nice you think that Niki, rather than celebrate Lewis' win & Merc's WCC win, had not only the time, but also the inclination to go up to the stewards room & then somehow be magically granted to access, so he could form an opinion of what 2 rival team drivers did/ didn't do

Or, maybe he just had a quick look at some FOM replays like the rest of us & made an off the cuff comment to reporters (which most of us at the time would've agreed with)








Edited by angrymoby on Monday 23 October 18:00

Roofless Toothless

5,612 posts

131 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
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stiII_I_undomyseatbelts said:
One of the vids I've watched clearly shows that Max could have stayed with two wheels on the track and he would have still made it. It's the design of the track and the inconsistent policing that makes me piss boil.
He would have made it round the corner but would he have passed Kimi?

williamp

19,213 posts

272 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
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I forget who was given a 25 second penalty for overtaking Kimi at Spa in 2008 off-track (and giving it back). So in that regard, Max was lucky with a 5 second penalty. paperbag


SmoothCriminal

5,047 posts

198 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
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williamp said:
I forget who was given a 25 second penalty for overtaking Kimi at Spa in 2008 off-track (and giving it back). So in that regard, Max was lucky with a 5 second penalty. paperbag
The most blatant case of ferrari international assistance in the modern era that joke of a decision was.

WilsonWilson

517 posts

148 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
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M3ax said:
Just as an aside, I think it's been great this year but we should all rejoice at the talent that's coming through. Vestappen, saint, ocon etc. Could be in for a great period of F1.
Ha, auto-correct?

But yes Hulkenberg, Pérez, Bottas should all be worried it's looking like their time has past. Must be gutting to spend the best part of decade as up and coming then have the next generation leap frog you. Rosberg might have struggled to get another contract as well.

Sylvaforever

2,212 posts

97 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
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JNW1 said:
StevieBee said:
rdjohn said:
thegreenhell said:
Quite a lot of centimetres.

Hmmm, having now seen that picture, I have changed my mind. The live TV looked like an audacious move - that looks more like cheating.

Kimi is defending the corner perfectly, there is no possibility going round the outside, but it now looks like Max has just staightlined the apex.
As the picture shows; it's a slam-dunk contravention and worthy of reprimand.

This issue is that others did the same at various points but suffered no penalty.
I agree there were numerous examples of drivers going beyond the limit of the track and not getting punished; however, surely the difference in Verstappen's case is that he gained a place - and hence an advantage - as a result of what he did whereas the others didn't?

Happy to stand corrected if someone else made an overtaking move stick as a result of going off the track and didn't get punished but if that happened yesterday I missed it!

HustleRussell

24,602 posts

159 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
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Sainz didn't go past.

Ian974

2,927 posts

198 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
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As someone suggested, I do think there is some merit in limiting the cars to an extent if they go all four wheels off. DRS is already allowing the car to be adjusted depending on where it is on the circuit, surely the opposite could automatically apply when it goes right over the line, limit it to 50% throttle while off the road?

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
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Suddenly snapping the throttle closed when grip is already reduced by the car being off the normal surface could have an interested effect on the chassis. hehe

Vaud

50,289 posts

154 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
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Ian974 said:
As someone suggested, I do think there is some merit in limiting the cars to an extent if they go all four wheels off. DRS is already allowing the car to be adjusted depending on where it is on the circuit, surely the opposite could automatically apply when it goes right over the line, limit it to 50% throttle while off the road?
Might cause other accidents.

Better to be a penalty served when the driver is expecting it. Maybe 50% on the straight.

ukaskew

10,642 posts

220 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
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HustleRussell said:
In my experience, going off track is most often a method of mitigating the loss of time as opposed to a method of gaining time.
RIC was super aggressive on track limits in the seconds after not gaining the place from BOT at turn one. He basically straight lined the esses (BOT didn’t), it wouldn’t be difficult to quantify that RIC gained an advantage and got right back up BOTs backside by doing this (this is just one example from that sequence)...



That wasn’t running wide, that was intentionally making a sequence of corners a straight line.

Ian974

2,927 posts

198 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
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Yeah, dropping the power might upset the car, but it must be relatively straightforward to get something set up to make it more consistent?
As someone else mentioned pressure sensors being used at snetterton or somewhere? That'd be straightforward enough. Place them so they'll only be triggered with four wheels off the track, hit that and auto penalty of 2-5 seconds depending on location or restriction of electric power available.

LaurasOtherHalf

21,429 posts

195 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
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Vaud said:
angrymoby said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
I've thought this for years, why don't they just put those polystyrene advertising boards up on the areas where drivers can gain an advantage (like they stagger at the chicane at turn 1 Monza)?

Hit one and recurve a drive through penalty.
bit harsh on those crowded off track into them ...plus, it would only be useful once
Not sure adding something that would create a lot of debris to the track is a great idea. Easily ingested into radiators, etc?
It's only polystyrene, plus the whole idea would be that the drivers won't hit it-it's a deterrent! I know it's been said lots of times before but if there was a wall there they wouldn't do it and with these they get the close proximity wall without the danger.


Vaud

50,289 posts

154 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
quotequote all
LaurasOtherHalf said:
It's only polystyrene, plus the whole idea would be that the drivers won't hit it-it's a deterrent! I know it's been said lots of times before but if there was a wall there they wouldn't do it and with these they get the close proximity wall without the danger.
I get the point, but debris would trigger safety cars, even if it is just polystyrene. And the pickup of bits will penalise other drivers?


anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
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Ian974 said:
Yeah, dropping the power might upset the car, but it must be relatively straightforward to get something set up to make it more consistent?
As someone else mentioned pressure sensors being used at snetterton or somewhere? That'd be straightforward enough. Place them so they'll only be triggered with four wheels off the track, hit that and auto penalty of 2-5 seconds depending on location or restriction of electric power available.
I think people are chasing the wrong problem.

Monitoring the act of going off track and gaining an advantage is not a problem.

What matters is having rules that mean if you do gain an advantage the rules are consistently applied.

It's not rocket science.