The Official 2017 US Grand Prix Thread **Spoilers**
Discussion
ukaskew said:
RIC was super aggressive on track limits in the seconds after not gaining the place from BOT at turn one. He basically straight lined the esses (BOT didn’t), it wouldn’t be difficult to quantify that RIC gained an advantage and got right back up BOTs backside by doing this (this is just one example from that sequence)...
That wasn’t running wide, that was intentionally making a sequence of corners a straight line.
That picture does show that the rules are not consistently applied, and they are not enforced by the letter every time. Each snapshot does have its own set of mitigating circumstances.That wasn’t running wide, that was intentionally making a sequence of corners a straight line.
I am not so convinced that the rule was enforced reasonably in the case of Verstappen as he had also been pushed right moments before by Raikonnen who was turning in to the corner. In my view Verstappen's advantage was in driving faster with more traction, then he was subsequentially pushed across to make the overtake further to the right.
williamp said:
maybe take out the rumble strips and replace by grass with, say a 2cm drop after the white line. The drivers would know they are over it, lose traction on the grass, lose downforce and damage the underside if they really mess up.
Bet they wont abuse track limits then...
Only physical track limiters are respected by the drivers. Bet they wont abuse track limits then...
mondeomk4 said:
ukaskew said:
RIC was super aggressive on track limits in the seconds after not gaining the place from BOT at turn one. He basically straight lined the esses (BOT didn’t), it wouldn’t be difficult to quantify that RIC gained an advantage and got right back up BOTs backside by doing this (this is just one example from that sequence)...
That wasn’t running wide, that was intentionally making a sequence of corners a straight line.
That picture does show that the rules are not consistently applied, and they are not enforced by the letter every time. Each snapshot does have its own set of mitigating circumstances.That wasn’t running wide, that was intentionally making a sequence of corners a straight line.
I am not so convinced that the rule was enforced reasonably in the case of Verstappen as he had also been pushed right moments before by Raikonnen who was turning in to the corner. In my view Verstappen's advantage was in driving faster with more traction, then he was subsequentially pushed across to make the overtake further to the right.
I think the Max pass wasn’t as simple as adjusting line to miss Kimi. I think the only reason he could carry the speed he did was that he was straight lining that section. May be wrong, but I think cutting the corner was fundamental to him being able to make the pass.
Vaud said:
I dont think it has anything to do with his age or experience per se. Lots of (great) drivers have been similarly (or more) aggressive when they were older.
My point is they should all be stopped early in their careers and should be rehabilitated by penalty after ever stronger penalty. Given Verstappen's persistent weaving in the braking zones, I think last year he should have been made to sit out a Grand Prix to contemplate how he might change his behaviour. Then if he kept doing it, next time 2 Grand Prix, further offences 3 Grand Prix. You cannot win a world championship if you don't contest every race so I think he would quickly come to his senses. I think the authorities let Schumacher get away with close to murder but they did exclude him from the 1997 world championship. By the way, I am a Schumacher fan but I was always disappointed when he used those sort of tactics. He was too good to need them. That is the tragic bit - all these drivers like Vettel, Schumacher and Verstappen are so good they don't need to resort to dangerous driving. If Lance Stroll did it you could understand it was his only chance. I haven't been a Hamilton fan until seeing his comments on the Verstappen pass. It made me think that here is an aggressive racer who doesn't generally resort to dangerous tactics, going over track limits etc. OK, early in his career he had a few scrapes with officialdom but he seemed to learn from them. I think he is always hard but fair. We may have truly the greatest ever currently performing in front of our eyes. He has been supreme in the last few races. If he can achieve all he has without the dirty tactics then he has my support. A worthy four time world champion and probably a worthy 5, 6 and 7 time world champion. Lets hope he sticks around to make sure Verstappen doesn't become a champion too soon before he grows up.
jsf said:
I think people are chasing the wrong problem.
Monitoring the act of going off track and gaining an advantage is not a problem.
What matters is having rules that mean if you do gain an advantage the rules are consistently applied.
It's not rocket science.
Please stop being rational and having an informed opinion with a practical solution. Do you not know this is PH!Monitoring the act of going off track and gaining an advantage is not a problem.
What matters is having rules that mean if you do gain an advantage the rules are consistently applied.
It's not rocket science.
My two penneth, if the FIA, C4 SKY F1 and the might of PH can't suggest an agreeable solution maybe it's a difficult question.
I think we want...
Consistency
Good racing
Impartiality
I think if you drew a venn diagram covering those three the cross over would be very small.
I am not intentionally trolling but feed this troll whisky for responses
Vaud said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
It's only polystyrene, plus the whole idea would be that the drivers won't hit it-it's a deterrent! I know it's been said lots of times before but if there was a wall there they wouldn't do it and with these they get the close proximity wall without the danger.
I get the point, but debris would trigger safety cars, even if it is just polystyrene. And the pickup of bits will penalise other drivers?
mondeomk4 said:
ukaskew said:
RIC was super aggressive on track limits in the seconds after not gaining the place from BOT at turn one. He basically straight lined the esses (BOT didn’t), it wouldn’t be difficult to quantify that RIC gained an advantage and got right back up BOTs backside by doing this (this is just one example from that sequence)...
That wasn’t running wide, that was intentionally making a sequence of corners a straight line.
That picture does show that the rules are not consistently applied, and they are not enforced by the letter every time. Each snapshot does have its own set of mitigating circumstances.That wasn’t running wide, that was intentionally making a sequence of corners a straight line.
I am not so convinced that the rule was enforced reasonably in the case of Verstappen as he had also been pushed right moments before by Raikonnen who was turning in to the corner. In my view Verstappen's advantage was in driving faster with more traction, then he was subsequentially pushed across to make the overtake further to the right.
Dr Z said:
Could actually work. They used some small loops embedded in the track to police track limits at Silverstone last year. IIRC, Hamilton got one of his quali laps deleted for going off track. If a car exceeds track limits, the next time it cuts the timing beam at the end of the lap, have a signal transmitted to it that disables ERS assist for a lap. You go off track? You lose 160 bhp, and become a sitting duck. No need to argue about giving the place back then.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/headlines/2016/...
Hamilton had his qually lap disallowed after one of the Observer Marshals reported him for track limits, in their role as designated "judge of fact" on that corner.https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/headlines/2016/...
ukaskew said:
I'm no Max fanboy, but in that scenario he would have made the pass if he was 2 wheels off or 4 wheels off, he'd already done the hard work and got on the right line.
I think at least one thing we can agree on is that it was a good race if we're still talking about it this intently 2 days later. I'll be a happy man if we finish the season with a couple more races of this quality.
Edited by Andy S15 on Tuesday 24th October 07:27
The thing is, Riccardo didn’t get past Bottas, so didn’t gain a lasting advantage. The other thing about Max is that the corner he overtook Kimi on was not a corner that cars were overrunning all race, it was not the racing line, and at the end of the day he was off the track when he overtook.
jonnyb said:
The thing is, Riccardo didn’t get past Bottas, so didn’t gain a lasting advantage. The other thing about Max is that the corner he overtook Kimi on was not a corner that cars were overrunning all race, it was not the racing line, and at the end of the day he was off the track when he overtook.
I think maybe 'Gaining an advantage' requires clarification. That is part of the reason why this is all so hotly debated. Say Danny Ric managed to gain 0.1 of a second by cutting the corner there vs. Bottas. Is a 0.1s shorter race time not a lasting advantage? In the case of going offtrack on the outside and being able to then take a tighter exit than you would have been able to within track limits, and gaining speed on the following straight - is this not a speed advantage over the guy who stayed within the lines? What it seems like here is that the FIA is fine with it unless an overtake occurs - in which case, the wording needs adjusting to stipulate an advantage resulting in an overtake.Basically, 'a lasting advantage' is well open to interpretation. This then leads to inconsistency and vagueness.
Edited by Andy S15 on Tuesday 24th October 08:18
And therein lies the problem. Does not suffering a disadvantage from a off-track moment not constitute gaining an advantage as otherwise you would have been further behind?
I agree that the stewarding needs to be far more consistent but this would be made far easier if the track limits were to be enforced for the entire track and not a pick-and-choose scenario depending on the corner.
The only reasonable defence against a penalty for leaving the track should be if you have been forced wide by another competitor, avoiding an accident or debris on the track.
If the penalty for leaving track limits is well thought out the drivers would soon learn to stay within the white lines and this issue would disappear.
Just my random thoughts.
I agree that the stewarding needs to be far more consistent but this would be made far easier if the track limits were to be enforced for the entire track and not a pick-and-choose scenario depending on the corner.
The only reasonable defence against a penalty for leaving the track should be if you have been forced wide by another competitor, avoiding an accident or debris on the track.
If the penalty for leaving track limits is well thought out the drivers would soon learn to stay within the white lines and this issue would disappear.
Just my random thoughts.
With the great benefit of hindsight, I think the problem here is track specific.
It is normal for track limits to be defined beyond the white line by sawtooth kerbs, artificial grass and, more recently, baguette kerbs at street circuits.
The problem here seems to be that the tarmac is very much wider and the track limit is only identified by paint.
During qually, drivers were crossing the outside line on turn-in, but never cutting the apex. During the race it looks like several drivers were simply cutting corners, without the normal expectation of loss of grip, and therefore performance.
In Max’s case, he actually cut the corner in order to make the pass and was rightly penalised. He made no effort to pass Kimi on the outside.
I guess that next year, this problem wil have been fixed, by off-setting baguette kerbs
It is normal for track limits to be defined beyond the white line by sawtooth kerbs, artificial grass and, more recently, baguette kerbs at street circuits.
The problem here seems to be that the tarmac is very much wider and the track limit is only identified by paint.
During qually, drivers were crossing the outside line on turn-in, but never cutting the apex. During the race it looks like several drivers were simply cutting corners, without the normal expectation of loss of grip, and therefore performance.
In Max’s case, he actually cut the corner in order to make the pass and was rightly penalised. He made no effort to pass Kimi on the outside.
I guess that next year, this problem wil have been fixed, by off-setting baguette kerbs
I guess it could all be intentionally deliberately vague so the stewards can review on a case by case basis... and thus we come full circle.
I don't think there's any real answer - except maybe if the stewards didn't immediately lay the smack down prior to podium without any explanation. I'll quote Horner here as it's quite interesting [after Mexico 2016], "The stewards said they wouldn't make that hasty decision again. They've completely ignored that and done exactly the same thing again".
I'd have much preferred the podium with Max, then a demote the following day with full reasoning. This wouldn't upset the live fans and wouldn't have caused as much frustration maybe. I just think (in the space of one race meeting) to go from saying in the drivers brief about track limits not being enforced and no one else receiving any reprimand all weekend, to demoting a popular driver from a podium position after a career defining drive is a little rich. I'd have personally liked them to have reviewed it and on balance, both drivers made small reactionary movements which resulted in 4 wheels off - however, Max had still made the opportunity stick and would have still made the pass with 2 wheels off, so position stays.
One thing aside though, to give Max a penalty point on his licence is an absolute, unwarranted joke. Demote him if you must, but why the penalty? I thought penalty points were reserved for unsafe acts.
I don't think there's any real answer - except maybe if the stewards didn't immediately lay the smack down prior to podium without any explanation. I'll quote Horner here as it's quite interesting [after Mexico 2016], "The stewards said they wouldn't make that hasty decision again. They've completely ignored that and done exactly the same thing again".
I'd have much preferred the podium with Max, then a demote the following day with full reasoning. This wouldn't upset the live fans and wouldn't have caused as much frustration maybe. I just think (in the space of one race meeting) to go from saying in the drivers brief about track limits not being enforced and no one else receiving any reprimand all weekend, to demoting a popular driver from a podium position after a career defining drive is a little rich. I'd have personally liked them to have reviewed it and on balance, both drivers made small reactionary movements which resulted in 4 wheels off - however, Max had still made the opportunity stick and would have still made the pass with 2 wheels off, so position stays.
One thing aside though, to give Max a penalty point on his licence is an absolute, unwarranted joke. Demote him if you must, but why the penalty? I thought penalty points were reserved for unsafe acts.
Edited by Andy S15 on Tuesday 24th October 09:45
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