Discussion
McLaren have three shareholders and if the media are to be believed one was created to pay off Ron Dennis. Mansour Ojjeh can and will dip into his vast fortune if necessary but the Bahrain Soverign Wealth Fund I am sure has very deep pockets if necessary. At some point soon McLaren cars will be an IPO and then spun off from the rest of the business. Where however the F1 team goes from here into 2019 is anybodies guess. If the car does not improve by Silverstone I can see serious questions asked and Zac Brown isn't delivering whatsoever. The leadership of the technical team seem lost and you do not rely upon aero results and CFD modelling alone. Time the engineers stepped away from computers.
Toyota Racing could afford to spend US $ 800 million a year if they wanted too when you consider the size of the company and their financial strength, but wisely like BMW and many others, owning an F1 team isn't wise for a major car company without quick thinking management and a real idea of how to manage budgets, ego's and F1 politics. Also the F1 rulebook is currently a mess and until 2021 comes along nothing will change from the manufacturers positions. McLaren may be in for a couple of expensive years and a number of staff leaving.
Toyota Racing could afford to spend US $ 800 million a year if they wanted too when you consider the size of the company and their financial strength, but wisely like BMW and many others, owning an F1 team isn't wise for a major car company without quick thinking management and a real idea of how to manage budgets, ego's and F1 politics. Also the F1 rulebook is currently a mess and until 2021 comes along nothing will change from the manufacturers positions. McLaren may be in for a couple of expensive years and a number of staff leaving.
I'd find it quite sad if the current team ended up selling off historical assets to pay their bills - a group of unsuccessful people who had nothing to do with those particular race cars.
What I don't quite understand is why the hell are Mclaren not going out in every practice session with those aero rigs attached to the cars to collect more real world data? It seems this is what they need at this point.
What I don't quite understand is why the hell are Mclaren not going out in every practice session with those aero rigs attached to the cars to collect more real world data? It seems this is what they need at this point.
ralphrj said:
There won't be a profit warning as McLaren is not a publicly traded company.
Whilst there might be more to McLaren than the F1 team they still aren't making any money.
In total the combined McLaren Group lost £44m before tax in 2017. They lost another £25m in the first 3 months of 2018.
I see that former designer John Barnard is questioning whether the team can survive.
It's never as simple as "company is going to fold because it's lost money". The problem comes when investors lose confidence in the long term ability of the company. It's a very long way from that being a problem IMO.Whilst there might be more to McLaren than the F1 team they still aren't making any money.
In total the combined McLaren Group lost £44m before tax in 2017. They lost another £25m in the first 3 months of 2018.
I see that former designer John Barnard is questioning whether the team can survive.
Gaz. said:
Toyota spent a lot more than that, $100m in 2016, $140m in 2017 and $160m this year. Considering the publicity and exposure F1 is an absolute bargain by comparison.
A lot of Toyota's budget comes from their R&D department. It's the reason they stayed in WEC as a sole OEM because they use it to test and develop their hybrid systems for the road car division.Sa Calobra said:
Even with a Renault engine they aren't even close to troubling RB.
I think McLaren will post warnings within a year. Can't see anyway they'll climb out of this.
There was an article on the we recently which said that in Canada they actually had the slowest car in the entire field when things like drivers'/tyres etc were equalled out. At the moment just being a mid field team is hard enough. More like leaders of the slowest teams.I think McLaren will post warnings within a year. Can't see anyway they'll climb out of this.
Dr Z said:
McLaren have made big gains in performance over their previous Honda powered car in race pace this year, that much is obvious. The updates haven't come thick and fast as they usually do, and they do seem to be conducting a lot of experiments at the track to identify problems they are having, problems that are not currently allowing them to extract the maximum from the car on 1-lap pace.
A lot of development potential is left there in the car especially in the bargeboard area, which looks even more scarce than the last car. This is one area where the top teams are gaining a lot of performance from compared to the midfield. It has been said that Peter Prodromou's approach is very methodical, so it may be that the team is trying to gain an understanding of the car & the problem they are having, before chucking parts in there. This was also RBR's approach last season.
It took RBR 3/4th of last season to recover from the problems they had last year...and look at where they are now. It is possible, just need to do some solid science without all the noise around the team, which the current leadership should absorb and deflect rather than encourage.
If/when they solve the problem with the car, they should try and build up the tools for the 2021, forget about winning or podiums in the meantime, and take that pressure off the team.
Not sure they have made big gains over the Honda car in terms of chassis. A lot of development potential is left there in the car especially in the bargeboard area, which looks even more scarce than the last car. This is one area where the top teams are gaining a lot of performance from compared to the midfield. It has been said that Peter Prodromou's approach is very methodical, so it may be that the team is trying to gain an understanding of the car & the problem they are having, before chucking parts in there. This was also RBR's approach last season.
It took RBR 3/4th of last season to recover from the problems they had last year...and look at where they are now. It is possible, just need to do some solid science without all the noise around the team, which the current leadership should absorb and deflect rather than encourage.
If/when they solve the problem with the car, they should try and build up the tools for the 2021, forget about winning or podiums in the meantime, and take that pressure off the team.
There is no doubt the change from Honda to Renault late in the day has caused many issues, and i would expect the 2019 car to greatly benefit from a stable engine. Rear Matt Somerfield on the Mclaren and you can see where they had to make decisions that would cost them lap time to make this change, that ideally they wouldnt have done.
My wager is £££ in terms of development, Mclaren since losing Vodafone/sponsors have never developed as aggressively as they use too, as doing that costs £££ and currently only 3 teams have that kinda of budget and resource. As someone i read pointed out at the start of the year when Mclaren boosted they would catch Red Bull, how? They have a smaller budget, less staff, less resources & less money? Throw in Newey and it was never on the cards. I agree the management should have said 2018 is a rebuilding year, the late engine change will slow us down but 2019 will be the year when we can be solid.
Gaz. said:
They need to stop wasting R&D on winglets and fancy nose cones and focus on the fundamentals. They have poor traction, low apex speeds but also low straight line speed.
Disagree on that one. Front aero is massively important these days as sets up and influences downforce downstream for instance the y250 vortice starts between the inner wing tips and neutral/spec mid-section of the front wing and works its way through the suspension, bargeboards and influences aero down to the diffuser; this year's McLaren has been having rear downforce issues. Completely agree with Doc Z with bargeboard development.Low speed corners, traction issues needs understanding. Remember that Merc had/has similar issues that makes it a diva. Is it aero/mechanical grip? The two departments needs working harmony, in fact McLaren factory as a whole needs to.
ralphrj said:
Actually they don't have money. The Bahrainis weren't prepared to put more cash in to buy out Ron Dennis. Instead the Company had to borrow the money to pay for the restructure.
The new McLaren Group issued bonds for a total of £560m. The buy back of Ron's share was £200m, the combined overdrafts were paid off (£223m), they paid of some shareholder loans (£8m) and incurred a total of £38m of transaction fees.
At the end of March 2018 they had only £40m left in the bank - a reasonable sum of money until you realise that the Group spent £59m more than they raised in the first 3 months of 2018.
The investment by Nidala (Michael Latifi) will offset that in Q2 but McLaren have already admitted that they are selling off the heritage assets of the F1 team to balance the books.
The threat by Trump to impose a 25% tariff on cars manufactured in the EU and sold into the US (McLaren's biggest market) must be deeply concerning for the Board.
This basically ties in with what i have thought for a while, Mclaren are trying to run a top tier F1 team on a Minardi kinda budget. The math just didnt add up, No title sponsor, lack of sponsors, no money from an engine partner and heavily decreased money from F1 due to years of bad performance.The new McLaren Group issued bonds for a total of £560m. The buy back of Ron's share was £200m, the combined overdrafts were paid off (£223m), they paid of some shareholder loans (£8m) and incurred a total of £38m of transaction fees.
At the end of March 2018 they had only £40m left in the bank - a reasonable sum of money until you realise that the Group spent £59m more than they raised in the first 3 months of 2018.
The investment by Nidala (Michael Latifi) will offset that in Q2 but McLaren have already admitted that they are selling off the heritage assets of the F1 team to balance the books.
The threat by Trump to impose a 25% tariff on cars manufactured in the EU and sold into the US (McLaren's biggest market) must be deeply concerning for the Board.
What gone unsaid is Mclaren management made it clear that Honda was holding it back and it would make up much of the honda money with better performance and increased funds from F1 prize money etc once its 'second' best chassis in F1 had a decent motor, now that its coming ture i wonder if that is the real reason for blood on the Woking carpets? The gamble hasnt paid off, Alonso will walk end of year, its hard to see many positives
ralphrj said:
The threat by Trump to impose a 25% tariff on cars manufactured in the EU and sold into the US (McLaren's biggest market) must be deeply concerning for the Board.
It'll be interesting to see how this pans out - if you are a bod in the US and you're wealthy enough that a McLaren is on your shopping list, I would have thought the chances are your alternative choices may well also be European, rather than American. belleair302 said:
If the car does not improve by Silverstone I can see serious questions asked and Zac Brown isn't delivering whatsoever.
That is totally unrealistic to expect them to significantly improve an F1 car in such a tiny amount of time. F1 bods know that it takes months and often years. There's rarely a quick fix in F1Is part of the problem Alonso?
What is he actually bringing to the team to justify his large salary and larger reputation? He isn't significantly faster than Vandoorne, he's constantly being negative about the team publicly, and he's clearly distracted by other types of racing. Yes, he was once a great driver, but are his negative outbursts and mediocre performances helping?
What is he actually bringing to the team to justify his large salary and larger reputation? He isn't significantly faster than Vandoorne, he's constantly being negative about the team publicly, and he's clearly distracted by other types of racing. Yes, he was once a great driver, but are his negative outbursts and mediocre performances helping?
The Surveyor said:
Is part of the problem Alonso?
What is he actually bringing to the team to justify his large salary and larger reputation? He isn't significantly faster than Vandoorne, he's constantly being negative about the team publicly, and he's clearly distracted by other types of racing. Yes, he was once a great driver, but are his negative outbursts and mediocre performances helping?
I'd swap him for Kimi personally and push Alonso out the door long before he jumped. Not because I don't think he's great, but because they can't afford him right now.What is he actually bringing to the team to justify his large salary and larger reputation? He isn't significantly faster than Vandoorne, he's constantly being negative about the team publicly, and he's clearly distracted by other types of racing. Yes, he was once a great driver, but are his negative outbursts and mediocre performances helping?
Trouble is Alonso is the last pillar of the delusion that they're a top team. If he leaves then they're probably behind Renualt in terms of future WCC winners, and the money will follow suit.
revrange said:
Dr Z said:
McLaren have made big gains in performance over their previous Honda powered car in race pace this year, that much is obvious. The updates haven't come thick and fast as they usually do, and they do seem to be conducting a lot of experiments at the track to identify problems they are having, problems that are not currently allowing them to extract the maximum from the car on 1-lap pace.
Not sure they have made big gains over the Honda car in terms of chassis. There is no doubt the change from Honda to Renault late in the day has caused many issues, and i would expect the 2019 car to greatly benefit from a stable engine. Rear Matt Somerfield on the Mclaren and you can see where they had to make decisions that would cost them lap time to make this change, that ideally they wouldnt have done.
Also last year in most races, the drivers were having to lap off pace to save fuel so we rarely got to to see the true pace of the car. They do more long runs in the practice sessions this year than last year. I don't know whether it is because they were really trying to save miles on the Honda motor or for what particular reason. What is the point of a long run/ race sim, when you are guaranteed to run off pace to make it to the end? I don't think we fully appreciate how stuff like this can be so insidious.
Sure, the sidepods and engine cover are all not as tight as the other Renault runners, but that is to be expected in their first year with this engine/PU, especially with RBR & Merc and a lot of teams moving towards the Ferrari solution for the sidepods.
glazbagun said:
...
Trouble is Alonso is the last pillar of the delusion that they're a top team. If he leaves then they're probably behind Renualt in terms of future WCC winners, and the money will follow suit.
Never though of that, I was looking at the teams that are out-performing McLaren in the middle of the grid, Force India, Renault and Hass each have a 'middle of the grid' driver line up and are constantly out-performing McLaren. They need to focus 100% on getting the car right rather than keeping Alonso IMHO.Trouble is Alonso is the last pillar of the delusion that they're a top team. If he leaves then they're probably behind Renualt in terms of future WCC winners, and the money will follow suit.
glazbagun said:
I'd swap him for Kimi personally and push Alonso out the door long before he jumped. Not because I don't think he's great, but because they can't afford him right now.
Trouble is Alonso is the last pillar of the delusion that they're a top team. If he leaves then they're probably behind Renualt in terms of future WCC winners, and the money will follow suit.
Alonso or no Alonso that’s the case anyway, hes consistenly been a few tenths quicker in quali this year but usually finishing the races 4 or 5 places if not more ahead of Vandoorne. At the moment he’s the reason they look better in the standings than they really are. Trouble is Alonso is the last pillar of the delusion that they're a top team. If he leaves then they're probably behind Renualt in terms of future WCC winners, and the money will follow suit.
As good a driver as Norris is, if he was with Vandoorne this year they’d be scrapping with the Red Bull Honda test car for the odd 10th place here and there.
Europa1 said:
It'll be interesting to see how this pans out - if you are a bod in the US and you're wealthy enough that a McLaren is on your shopping list, I would have thought the chances are your alternative choices may well also be European, rather than American.
At this price point, I'd agree. Porsche, Audi, Aston Martin, Lambo, Ferrari, Mercedes plus the niche vendors? Not sure that any of them build their supercars in the US.Vaud said:
Europa1 said:
It'll be interesting to see how this pans out - if you are a bod in the US and you're wealthy enough that a McLaren is on your shopping list, I would have thought the chances are your alternative choices may well also be European, rather than American.
At this price point, I'd agree. Porsche, Audi, Aston Martin, Lambo, Ferrari, Mercedes plus the niche vendors? Not sure that any of them build their supercars in the US.Vaud said:
Europa1 said:
It'll be interesting to see how this pans out - if you are a bod in the US and you're wealthy enough that a McLaren is on your shopping list, I would have thought the chances are your alternative choices may well also be European, rather than American.
At this price point, I'd agree. Porsche, Audi, Aston Martin, Lambo, Ferrari, Mercedes plus the niche vendors? Not sure that any of them build their supercars in the US.This is a little concerning...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/06/30/my...
I wonder what all that's about.
Maybe somebody forget to pay when they got all those Freddos……..
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/06/30/my...
I wonder what all that's about.
Maybe somebody forget to pay when they got all those Freddos……..
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