McLaren

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Jonesy23

4,650 posts

135 months

Saturday 14th July 2018
quotequote all
Interesting way to get people to join - lots of what they want, absolutely zero on what you get in return.

I assume 'because McLaren' is all the motivation they think is required?


tigerkoi

2,927 posts

197 months

Saturday 14th July 2018
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It’d be interesting to know the general employee churn figures at some of these F1 companies.

I know many of them have grown up around where the original garage was etc etc, but at what point does the ability for rentention/attraction of staff start to depend on the surroundings, the office you’re in, how free you feel to pop out and not have to use the staff canteen every day because the nearest parade of shops with food choices that are remotely different means going to the car park, driving 12 minutes....what a ballache.

Most industries have historically congregated, when one firm blows up and then others move nearby, or areas of specific business focus sprout - “Adland” in the West End. Banking in Wall Street. La Défense, Bankenviertal etc...people might say in F1 there’s ‘Motorsport Alley’. But it’s not the same thing. Not at all. People don’t wander out and meet up with someone from another company in a bar five minutes walk away and catch up. The exchange of ideas, networking, even the ability to negotiate on the sly a potential new job opportunity at another firm, it can be hugely important in attracting new staff.

It also contributes to the explosion in new ideas and thinking. It attracts talent.

And not surprisingly, many employees value that, and employers recognise that.

I know they’ll be lots of junior engineers people who’ll join a firm like McLaren, and it’ll be a lifelong ambition/dream. But it may sometimes be difficult to recruit mid-career hires at some of these campus sites. Not everyone is an engineer or screwing together the MP4/whatever.

Most are humdrum back office-y types and while some people can do the whole routine, steady campus life, others run a mile at the thought of working in an almost anaesthetically operated building, white floors, modular design, geometrically correct water features, well cut grass outside the window. It sort of sounds great when you’re the visionary leader who wants to create a monument to your principles, and....”won’t everyone love it and understand how lucky they are to work here!?”. But for some, if every day starts to look the same...

Lots of studies have been done on the whole monster-campus-in-the-sticks-for-all-staff vs being directly located in area of wider industry and competition. Trends highlighted that for the former whilst there were useful and necessary organisational benefits to bringing everyone together, further in the lifecycle of the company it started to stifle the thinking, the creativity. No new blood coming in, everyone operating to a groupthink and “ways of working”.

A Newey type can obviously say, ‘not for me’, but a 35yo, young family, mid-level, large mortgage, 60 mile round commute, same-y days....might agonise over that offer from so&so. Then factor in all the other stuff. Then decide to sit tight. Then stagnate because they’ve already done 5 years....macro that out and it’s a killer for a company that needs to up the metabolic rate and turnaround.

Edited by tigerkoi on Saturday 14th July 19:15

turbomoped

4,180 posts

82 months

Tuesday 17th July 2018
quotequote all
They look very stuck in a 80s and 90s corporate world.
Must have good processes as it was impressive how they fixed all their problems between testing and the first race.
Just dont seem to improve much and dont appear up to date on the technical boffin side anymore.
Williams seem the same.
I doubt Alonso will stay around long. Zak saying that it could be 5-10 years before we see success at mclaren is a
unsubtly message to Alonso to leave.
Suprised the press dont read the situation better but I guess eveyone is just worried their coveted pass will be revoked.
Those live team boss press conferences are a joke of trivial numbskull questions most times.


Vaud

50,290 posts

154 months

Tuesday 17th July 2018
quotequote all
turbomoped said:
Suprised the press dont read the situation better but I guess eveyone is just worried their coveted pass will be revoked.
Sorry but that is just not a risk.

Have you seen what the Daily Mail journalist wrote about McLaren?
Also Joe Saward is often very direct in his columns.

The press don't hold back and the teams can't pressure Liberty to revoke a press pass because of a bad article.

Frimley111R

15,537 posts

233 months

Tuesday 17th July 2018
quotequote all
The press are a law unto themselves 99% of the time. They'll do all the can to gain readers/interest, after all, that's all their job is despite all the BS about being these great people who uncover stuff. And if they can't find anything to write about they'll just make it up.

turbomoped

4,180 posts

82 months

Tuesday 17th July 2018
quotequote all
Vaud said:
turbomoped said:
Suprised the press dont read the situation better but I guess eveyone is just worried their coveted pass will be revoked.
Sorry but that is just not a risk.

Have you seen what the Daily Mail journalist wrote about McLaren?
Also Joe Saward is often very direct in his columns.

The press don't hold back and the teams can't pressure Liberty to revoke a press pass because of a bad article.
But they dont even ask the relevant questions.When zak said 5-10 years nobody asked if Alonso would stick around.
Meanwhile they all obsessed about the choco bars.
Boullier is well out of there and will probably wash up in one of the competent teams at some stage.
Mclaren are just going through the motions to give the road cars some credibility.

Vaud

50,290 posts

154 months

Tuesday 17th July 2018
quotequote all
turbomoped said:
But they dont even ask the relevant questions.When zak said 5-10 years nobody asked if Alonso would stick around.
Meanwhile they all obsessed about the choco bars.
Boullier is well out of there and will probably wash up in one of the competent teams at some stage.
Mclaren are just going through the motions to give the road cars some credibility.
But they know that they wont get an answer on Alonso so why ask? Attack on a story that gets column inches - chocolate bars as a reward for overtime gets more eyeball time than Alonso speculation for mass media.

Specialist media will address the Alonso speculation through the normal network, not press conference.

tigerkoi

2,927 posts

197 months

Tuesday 17th July 2018
quotequote all
turbomoped said:
Vaud said:
turbomoped said:
Suprised the press dont read the situation better but I guess eveyone is just worried their coveted pass will be revoked.
Sorry but that is just not a risk.

Have you seen what the Daily Mail journalist wrote about McLaren?
Also Joe Saward is often very direct in his columns.

The press don't hold back and the teams can't pressure Liberty to revoke a press pass because of a bad article.
But they dont even ask the relevant questions.When zak said 5-10 years nobody asked if Alonso would stick around.
Meanwhile they all obsessed about the choco bars.
Boullier is well out of there and will probably wash up in one of the competent teams at some stage.
Mclaren are just going through the motions to give the road cars some credibility.
Hi turbo,
Vaud is right in saying that this isn’t a “Liberty” thing as such. Any press is good press when aiming to widely publicised their business, as they say. Maybe some are non grata at the gates, but it’s not something I’m aware of.

I think you need to look more closely at the relationship in particular Zak Brown has with vast swathes of the car sporting press. I think I’ve mentioned before but he’s actually the chairman of the Motorsport Network!

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/127127/a-letter-...

And Motorsport has been busy hoovering up a lot of titles and websites recently and a) there’s starting to be an almost Press Association ‘bland-ism’ to the articles you’ll read from publication to publication, and b) some journalists might not want to really go there with the very negative McLaren stories. Easier to focus on something else.

Zak Brown is on record as saying his chairmanship of Motorsport won’t interfere at all with any editorial work, but it’s a subtle thing in my view. I used to read James Allen’s site. Really informative, wide ranging on the nitty gritty and the politics that infest. Now, recently taken over by MN, it’s become very modest, rarely updated and it’s lost its old spark. You’ve got to have friction with proper investigation. Now many of the articles on his and other MN sites just talk about wing differences or could this or that happened if Ferrari had pitted on lap 26. Nothing offensive or challenging, just data and details.

Joe Saward. Another one. I find him a bit acerbic and he does go on about being some sort of hardworking oracle, doing it for the fans, but I read it because I like seeking a wide range of views. But when he announced that he was now under the wing of MN, I could sense there seemed some topics he’s become far more ‘considerate’ on, if that’s a soft enough word.

Look at this way. When the news broke that McLaren was ‘under government investigation’, as I remember it broke very early Sunday morning on the Telegraph. The only websites that subsequently ran with the breaking news were sites like grandprix247 and pitpass, who didn’t hold back and do thrust the fact that they’re “independent”. If I can recall properly, there was next to nothing on MN sites over the next few days. Even now, if you google for “McLaren government investigation” I don’t think any MN site hits the top 10, 20 results?

News like that can rock share prices and external faith in companies, of course all subsequent to proper examination. But for vast swathes of the racing sporting press, nothing?

It’d be wrong to say that influence is being exerted on what is written about McLaren without facts. But I think it fairer to say that a lot of the press just don’t seem to go near the sensitive stuff. And only flex their editorial when someone like Zak Brown steps forth and says, “announcement, we’ve fired so and so and we’re in this state....”, then speculation and discourse can happen, because they’ve instigated the press.

The Daily Mail and McEvoy can do what he did the other day and go for the jugular because they’re the big men on campus when it comes to writing what they want. McEvoy isn’t for what I understand like a Saward or Allen or whoever living solely off the F1 merrygoround. He’s done the Olympics and is a more general sports journo who’s recently focused on F1. But probably less beholden by what he can say and ask. Dacre has gone, but the DM, whether you like their views or not is strong enough to dig in where others will defer. The Freddos thing looked a bit of a giggle when chatted about but ultimately hinted at some problems in house, and more tellingly maybe people who are desperate to offload from behind the scenes will use a publication with no ties and ....the DM as champions of the free press! Who’d have thought? smile

Another factor, a general one, is that for the most part the standards of journalism in the world seem to have fallen through the floor over the last decade or so. Cub reporters don’t do local rounds anymore spending day after day in court listening to aspects of a murder case and updating everyday. Stories come and then disappear. Dumbed down PA articles are strangling differentiation and only some newspapers spend any energy doing long term true investigative pieces. It’s a general problem as well.

thegreenhell

15,115 posts

218 months

Tuesday 17th July 2018
quotequote all
I didn't think Saward's new host was part of Motorsport Network. Agree about the others though. I gave up reading James Allen after he defected.

tigerkoi

2,927 posts

197 months

Tuesday 17th July 2018
quotequote all
thegreenhell said:
I didn't think Saward's new host was part of Motorsport Network. Agree about the others though. I gave up reading James Allen after he defected.
Oh yes! Often I find the comments section of any blog/site really holds the illuminating stuff.
In his (Sawards) old blog, he’d reply to most comments, sometimes say something snotty, sometimes be a little more cuddly. But amongst the posters they’d be the odd nugget that betrayed real knowledge and insight amongst his readers. Some old timer talking about Ascari or something.

But on the new site it just seems much more anaesthetised. Look at his “Boullier resigns” post. It reads just like a corporate update with only marginal amounts of opinion. Laying it on thick that “the matrix is the problem”, which conveniently allows current team to kitchen sink and blame others and the past. And then you dig into the comments which he hardly responds to - on one of the biggest stories in sports for a couple of days. One of his few responses to a poster was simply to say, “I believe he resigned” when someone says he’s sorry to see anyone get fired.

Now I struggle to believe that a guy who’s in the Motor sport bubble like Boullier just resigns before the British Grand Prix. When your boss - and previous peer/equal - says “...and we wish him well in future endeavours” it tends to smack of getting the bullet. That’s Corp comms 101. It’s beautiful, it’s always written that way, isn’t it? But when it’s of your own volition there’s much more personal reflection coming through, announcement of past success and loads of slavering BS smile. It’s definitely not prefaced with “not met expectations...causes...fault...major change...”.

It must be challenging when any of these journos trade off saying they have unrivalled insight and speak as they say, but there might be some situations where someone’s usual incision and strong opinion just goes....

Rich_W

12,548 posts

211 months

Sunday 22nd July 2018
quotequote all
Jonesy23 said:
Interesting way to get people to join - lots of what they want, absolutely zero on what you get in return.

I assume 'because McLaren' is all the motivation they think is required?
Couple or 4 years ago I applied at McLaren Automotive for a job. (Actually applied for more than 1 biggrin ) I met all the criteria required. I have the skills and the experience. If you look at their careers site, they want a degree for bleeding everything, (I don't) but will consider experience in lieu of one ! laugh

A recruiter from Woking called and we had a chat. My experience was apparently what they were looking for. Are you free in the next few days for an interview? What do you expect your notice to be? He mentioned "the package" "competitive" and "discounts on certain products" "staff car scheme" (which I never partake in anyway)

He casually asked my then current OTE. He audibly gasped when I said what I was on at the time. We're not talking millions, in the mid 30s. Fair market rate for someone doing my job with the level of experience.

"We cant match that for this role" he said (They were expecting to pay mid 20s for the role!)
"We only pay near that for the more senior role" (never did say, but inference was they couldn't match it even for the senior role!)
"Ok", says I, "can I be considered for that then?"
"I'll have to get back to you since you don't have a degree"


Needless to say he didn't. Not overly concerned, I'll take a slight pay cut if it means better career or bigger pay in the long term. But it cemented in my head that they expected "It's McLaren" to over ride everything. And unfortunately Nationwide building Society don't take that instead of cold hard cash! laugh

Interestingly if you ever see a video of the people building their road cars in the factory. Average age looks very young. Great for younger generation, we need people to get experience, but I do wonder if it's not motivated by cheaper overheads...

Gtom

1,593 posts

131 months

Sunday 22nd July 2018
quotequote all
Today’s results

Redbull 4th
Renault 5th
Torro Rosso 10th

McLaren, well.

The rot has truly set in now, how the hell do they come back from this?

DrDeAtH

3,586 posts

231 months

Sunday 22nd July 2018
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Could Ross Braun be the saviour?

HTP99

22,443 posts

139 months

Monday 23rd July 2018
quotequote all
DrDeAtH said:
Could Ross Braun be the saviour?
The razor guy?

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 23rd July 2018
quotequote all
Gtom said:
Today’s results

Redbull 4th
Renault 5th
Torro Rosso 10th

McLaren, well.

The rot has truly set in now, how the hell do they come back from this?
Get some quality leadership.

Gtom

1,593 posts

131 months

Monday 23rd July 2018
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Paddy Lowe from Williams to McLaren?

hairyben

8,516 posts

182 months

Monday 23rd July 2018
quotequote all
Rich_W said:
Couple or 4 years ago I applied at McLaren Automotive for a job. (Actually applied for more than 1 biggrin ) I met all the criteria required. I have the skills and the experience. If you look at their careers site, they want a degree for bleeding everything, (I don't) but will consider experience in lieu of one ! laugh

A recruiter from Woking called and we had a chat. My experience was apparently what they were looking for. Are you free in the next few days for an interview? What do you expect your notice to be? He mentioned "the package" "competitive" and "discounts on certain products" "staff car scheme" (which I never partake in anyway)

He casually asked my then current OTE. He audibly gasped when I said what I was on at the time. We're not talking millions, in the mid 30s. Fair market rate for someone doing my job with the level of experience.

"We cant match that for this role" he said (They were expecting to pay mid 20s for the role!)
"We only pay near that for the more senior role" (never did say, but inference was they couldn't match it even for the senior role!)
"Ok", says I, "can I be considered for that then?"
"I'll have to get back to you since you don't have a degree"


Needless to say he didn't. Not overly concerned, I'll take a slight pay cut if it means better career or bigger pay in the long term. But it cemented in my head that they expected "It's McLaren" to over ride everything. And unfortunately Nationwide building Society don't take that instead of cold hard cash! laugh

Interestingly if you ever see a video of the people building their road cars in the factory. Average age looks very young. Great for younger generation, we need people to get experience, but I do wonder if it's not motivated by cheaper overheads...
I thought miserably low pay was across-the-board in F1? You're supposed to want to do it for the love.

Unless you're a newey or a Hamilton etc.

Frimley111R

15,537 posts

233 months

Monday 23rd July 2018
quotequote all
Gtom said:
Today’s results

Redbull 4th
Renault 5th
Torro Rosso 10th

McLaren, well.

The rot has truly set in now, how the hell do they come back from this?
Well don't forget there was a time when they failed to qualify for races so its not as bad as that. They have also been quite poor in the past, at least as bad as they are now. It's just that they have the perfect storm of:

terrible engine choice costing them 3 years
the engine masking the chassis issue which will cost them at least another 3 on top of that
RD, the driving force behind McLaren for all their successful 'recent' years, leaving

In fact the only positive is Alonso. Without him they'd be with another Vandorne and 'all' the points he's generated.

It was quite sad to see Williams and McLaren at the back of the 'grid' in FP1. How times change...




Rich_W

12,548 posts

211 months

Monday 23rd July 2018
quotequote all
hairyben said:
I thought miserably low pay was across-the-board in F1? You're supposed to want to do it for the love.

Unless you're a newey or a Hamilton etc.
Can't speak for others but a guy I vaguely knew worked for McLaren Racing as a Mechanic in the early 00s. He was on £55k a year.

But, he stopped soon after I spoke to him, he had a young family. And was spending an AVERAGE of 180 days away from home a year and it wasn't sustainable. This was when testing was allowed of course.

belleair302

6,835 posts

206 months

Monday 23rd July 2018
quotequote all
I worked in the marketing and sponsorship dept back in the late 90's and the pay was not great then. Did 3 seasons, over 40 GP's and it was a 'lifestyle' job for a few seasons not a career. No F1 teams pay well unless in parts of design or simulation with a Phd. We didn't even get the race team bonus which was back then US $ 100 per point depending upon which car you worked on