Discussion
ralphrj said:
Mika Hakkinen did some demo laps yesterday at Suzuka in the MP4-13 in which he one his first World Championship 20 years ago.
It made me wonder - was this the last McLaren that you could confidently say was the absolute class of the field?
That might sound odd when you consider that McLaren drivers have won two titles since then but it was the last year that McLaren won the Constructors Championship.
All the cars with the Merc engine were up there - maybe not ahead, but equal to the class of the field.It made me wonder - was this the last McLaren that you could confidently say was the absolute class of the field?
That might sound odd when you consider that McLaren drivers have won two titles since then but it was the last year that McLaren won the Constructors Championship.
slipstream 1985 said:
JonChalk said:
Cheered myself up earlier by watching highlights of Canada 2011.
...sighs nostalgically.....'those were days'.....
I watched the whole thing online a wee while ago. Great race and a good season but it did have its issues....sighs nostalgically.....'those were days'.....
ralphrj said:
Mika Hakkinen did some demo laps yesterday at Suzuka in the MP4-13 in which he one his first World Championship 20 years ago.
For me that car just oozes F1 goodness, it just looks right.Unfortunately 'goodness' does not win races any more...
I fully appreciate that this is what is needed to win races these days.
I think I read once that F1 cars should be designed to fit into a defined box.
After that all design bets are off, bar erm; engine capacity, turbo size, MGU-K, MGU-H, battery size, fuel weight, fuel flow, ride height. (and probably some other constraints I've forgotten).
That begs the question - what shape would you make the box?
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Jacobyte said:
Is very, very sad. They're stuffed at the moment. Too many people, too many inexperienced people, too much indecisiveness, no control or controls, all leading to too many schoolboy errors. And they genuinely are schoolboy errors, mostly unprintable on a public forum.
Arse-covering is so deeply ingrained into the team that he whole organisation needs stripping down and rebuilding.
Do you actually know this?Arse-covering is so deeply ingrained into the team that he whole organisation needs stripping down and rebuilding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lah5XDAKPZ0
Some things to take into consideration: The 2018 lap was at worse track conditions than the 2017 lap, but other teams did break their 2017 Q1 lap time. The 2018 lap was also on a softer compound as the 2018 SuperSoft is the 2017 UltraSoft. The 2017 Honda engine was not as powerful as the current Renault engine. McLaren had to stop using part of their suspension system due to rule changes. All in all I think it's fairly clear that the performance of the chassis and aero this year is not as good as last year. I'm not saying that they were as good as they said they were last year, just it was a lot better than this year shows.
Some things to take into consideration: The 2018 lap was at worse track conditions than the 2017 lap, but other teams did break their 2017 Q1 lap time. The 2018 lap was also on a softer compound as the 2018 SuperSoft is the 2017 UltraSoft. The 2017 Honda engine was not as powerful as the current Renault engine. McLaren had to stop using part of their suspension system due to rule changes. All in all I think it's fairly clear that the performance of the chassis and aero this year is not as good as last year. I'm not saying that they were as good as they said they were last year, just it was a lot better than this year shows.
Frimley111R said:
Do you actually know this?
Much from the horse's mouth, particularly on specific errors and processes. The last line is me reading between the lines and making my own (unfortunately) very reasonable conclusion. I have a soft spot for McLaren; I was one of those that hoped each new upgrade of the Honda engine would magically catapult them to the front of the grid. So it pains me to accept that the rut they're stuck in is caused by a cultural problem, not just an easily-curable manufacturing defect.Jabbah said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lah5XDAKPZ0
Some things to take into consideration: The 2018 lap was at worse track conditions than the 2017 lap, but other teams did break their 2017 Q1 lap time. The 2018 lap was also on a softer compound as the 2018 SuperSoft is the 2017 UltraSoft. The 2017 Honda engine was not as powerful as the current Renault engine. McLaren had to stop using part of their suspension system due to rule changes. All in all I think it's fairly clear that the performance of the chassis and aero this year is not as good as last year. I'm not saying that they were as good as they said they were last year, just it was a lot better than this year shows.
That's quite interesting.Some things to take into consideration: The 2018 lap was at worse track conditions than the 2017 lap, but other teams did break their 2017 Q1 lap time. The 2018 lap was also on a softer compound as the 2018 SuperSoft is the 2017 UltraSoft. The 2017 Honda engine was not as powerful as the current Renault engine. McLaren had to stop using part of their suspension system due to rule changes. All in all I think it's fairly clear that the performance of the chassis and aero this year is not as good as last year. I'm not saying that they were as good as they said they were last year, just it was a lot better than this year shows.
Not entirely reliable as a comparison for reasons including those you have already mentioned. Plus the 2018 cars are heavier, but still...
The 2017 lap and the 2018 lap are inseparable in terms of straight line speeds but the mid-corner speeds of the 2017 car appear to be slightly higher across the board. Can we deduce anything about the level of downforce from that?
If the downforce of the 2018 car is higher that is quite damning of the chassis as Alonso was making far more corrections in the 2018 car.
The Honda appeared to have a narrower power band but the gear ratios were such that Alonso was a gear lower in most corners while the Renault was perhaps struggling in the lower reaches of the next gear up. It is known that McLaren over-geared the car.
Alonso's exit from Spoon did look better during the 2017 lap which may account for some of the difference in lap time. He also looked more confident using the kerbs which may be due to the chassis or may be due to the drying track conditions.
HustleRussell said:
Jabbah said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lah5XDAKPZ0
Some things to take into consideration: The 2018 lap was at worse track conditions than the 2017 lap, but other teams did break their 2017 Q1 lap time. The 2018 lap was also on a softer compound as the 2018 SuperSoft is the 2017 UltraSoft. The 2017 Honda engine was not as powerful as the current Renault engine. McLaren had to stop using part of their suspension system due to rule changes. All in all I think it's fairly clear that the performance of the chassis and aero this year is not as good as last year. I'm not saying that they were as good as they said they were last year, just it was a lot better than this year shows.
That's quite interesting.Some things to take into consideration: The 2018 lap was at worse track conditions than the 2017 lap, but other teams did break their 2017 Q1 lap time. The 2018 lap was also on a softer compound as the 2018 SuperSoft is the 2017 UltraSoft. The 2017 Honda engine was not as powerful as the current Renault engine. McLaren had to stop using part of their suspension system due to rule changes. All in all I think it's fairly clear that the performance of the chassis and aero this year is not as good as last year. I'm not saying that they were as good as they said they were last year, just it was a lot better than this year shows.
Not entirely reliable as a comparison for reasons including those you have already mentioned. Plus the 2018 cars are heavier, but still...
The 2017 lap and the 2018 lap are inseparable in terms of straight line speeds but the mid-corner speeds of the 2017 car appear to be slightly higher across the board. Can we deduce anything about the level of downforce from that?
If the downforce of the 2018 car is higher that is quite damning of the chassis as Alonso was making far more corrections in the 2018 car.
The Honda appeared to have a narrower power band but the gear ratios were such that Alonso was a gear lower in most corners while the Renault was perhaps struggling in the lower reaches of the next gear up. It is known that McLaren over-geared the car.
Alonso's exit from Spoon did look better during the 2017 lap which may account for some of the difference in lap time. He also looked more confident using the kerbs which may be due to the chassis or may be due to the drying track conditions.
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