Lost Former Formula 1 Tracks

[coppice]

It's actually very easy to say why Hockenheim appealed-

- cars were in low downforce spec so did a gazillion mph through those very sinister pine forests before braking at last second for a chicane , then repeating process

- cars got very squirrelly in stadium , to the appreciation of several million beered up fans in the stadiums

[eastlmark]

aeropilot said:

moffspeed said:

But for the ultimate French GP circuit head up to the Auvergne and you will find Clermont Ferrand. Venue for the French GP in the late 60s/early 70s. Google it, it was awesome. Hearing Ferrari and Matra V12 s around the mountainside must have been something special....

Something special is certainly one description for it.........

I think that driver there is about to have a track limits penalty automatically imposed.

[aeropilot]

Vocal Minority said:

Now, that, is a valid point.

I am going to be honest - when it comes to modern cars, I think a lot of fans who talk about how they love Hamilton because 'he drives it like he stole it'.

I reckon if you put him and Bottas in identical helmets and took the numbers off the cars 99.99% of people would be hard pressed to tell the difference. People see what they want to see in a driver. The cars are so on rails - if you didn't have a stop watch I think the overwhelming majority would be hard pushed to tell anything.

I couldn't.

If the drivers had more to do in terms of the fundamentals of car control, rather than fiddling with the diff a little, then it may be easier to do.

^This.


Probably why I'd now (actually for some time now) rather watch historic/vintage racing/rallying etc than anything current.

[anonymous-user]

Vocal Minority said:

Now, that, is a valid point.

I am going to be honest - when it comes to modern cars, I think a lot of fans who talk about how they love Hamilton because 'he drives it like he stole it'.

I reckon if you put him and Bottas in identical helmets and took the numbers off the cars 99.99% of people would be hard pressed to tell the difference. People see what they want to see in a driver. The cars are so on rails - if you didn't have a stop watch I think the overwhelming majority would be hard pushed to tell anything.

I couldn't.

If the drivers had more to do in terms of the fundamentals of car control, rather than fiddling with the diff a little, then it may be easier to do.

I was lucky enough to have a long conversation with a McLaren engineer in 2011. He had worked with Senna, Prost, Lauda, Hunt etc. and included Hamilton right up there with the best of them, but thought it was sad that the car's technology in the modern era enabled lesser drivers to get so close to the greats. Having said that he also stated that the number of adjustments a driver makes during a lap now compared to 25 years ago was enormous and it required a different type of driver which was, in his opinion, why you can never compare drivers across eras. That conversation has always stuck with me and I think there is a lot of truth to it.

[The Selfish Gene]

I raced at Zandvoort last weekend - what a fantastic, fantastic place.

Even in my 'small' race car it was a fearsome place.

Walking through the paddock early in the morning was a goose bump affair.

Nothing else makes me feel alive like that, and I was definitely fearful of the place.

[Eric Mc]

The Selfish Gene said:

Nothing else makes me feel alive like that, and I was definitely fearful of the place.

Can't have that in modern F1.

[The Selfish Gene]

Eric Mc said:

The Selfish Gene said:

Nothing else makes me feel alive like that, and I was definitely fearful of the place.

Can't have that in modern F1.

Martin Brundle's comment on the HALO is always at the front of my mind. He said

"the safest place here this weekend shouldn't be in the race car"

for me, it's all about the danger and the risk. Why do it otherwise? Why watch?

I was a die hard fan for over 35 years of F1, I haven't really bothered since the advent of the HALO.

Granted I was driving a caged car at the weekend, but I'm not (and never will be) an F1 pilot.

I would love to see the speeds reduced, the aero reduced and have some real challenges back out there again.

Zandvoort from my limited experience, would be such a challenge.

[Sam993]

Zandvoort is way too narrow for modern cars, it'd be like Monaco racing wise.

[Europa1]

For an interesting read, I can recommend Autodrome: the Lost Race Circuits of Europe. Some interesting history, and great photos from when they were in their pomp and as they are now (well, a few years ago when the book was published).

[lotus72]

a page from my old website, when I worked for FOM I made a point of visiting the Jim Clark Memorial at Hockenheim in 2002, before it was moved;
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~garycr/2001/jim_...

[coppice]

Sam993 said:

Zandvoort is way too narrow for modern cars, it'd be like Monaco racing wise.

Seventies and Eighties F1 cars may have been much lighter than today's but they certainly weren't significantly narrower , if at all .. And I have had the pleasure of seeing more than one f1 car overtaking another at Zandvoort ...

[Dr Z]

cb1965 said:

Vocal Minority said:

Now, that, is a valid point.

I am going to be honest - when it comes to modern cars, I think a lot of fans who talk about how they love Hamilton because 'he drives it like he stole it'.

I reckon if you put him and Bottas in identical helmets and took the numbers off the cars 99.99% of people would be hard pressed to tell the difference. People see what they want to see in a driver. The cars are so on rails - if you didn't have a stop watch I think the overwhelming majority would be hard pushed to tell anything.

I couldn't.

If the drivers had more to do in terms of the fundamentals of car control, rather than fiddling with the diff a little, then it may be easier to do.

I was lucky enough to have a long conversation with a McLaren engineer in 2011. He had worked with Senna, Prost, Lauda, Hunt etc. and included Hamilton right up there with the best of them, but thought it was sad that the car's technology in the modern era enabled lesser drivers to get so close to the greats. Having said that he also stated that the number of adjustments a driver makes during a lap now compared to 25 years ago was enormous and it required a different type of driver which was, in his opinion, why you can never compare drivers across eras. That conversation has always stuck with me and I think there is a lot of truth to it.

I bet I can tell Hamilton from Bottas going through a corner. It was easier to tell Rosberg (Nico) from Hamilton than Bottas from Hamilton, but the differences are still there.

There are a fair few drivers I can tell from another, Alonso and Vettel are other ones.

TBF it's probably because I have watched them for so long.

[Sam993]

coppice said:

Sam993 said:

Zandvoort is way too narrow for modern cars, it'd be like Monaco racing wise.

Seventies and Eighties F1 cars may have been much lighter than today's but they certainly weren't significantly narrower , if at all .. And I have had the pleasure of seeing more than one f1 car overtaking another at Zandvoort ...

In general seventies and eighties era cars provided more overtaking that today's cars.

[cholo]

Eric Mc said:

If we widen the thread to "Lost Grand Prix" circuits it would be REALLY interesting -

Le Mans (both the pre World War 1 circuit and the 1967 "Bugatti" Circuit)
Pescara
Imola
Brands Hatch
Nordschleife
Original Hockenheim
Berne
Lisbon
Brussels
Old Spa
Zolder
Donington Park (pre World War 2 and later version)
Osterreichring
Zeltweg
Avus
Zandvoort
Turkey
India
Aida
Fuji
Phoenix
Detroit
Long Beach
Riverside
Watkins Glen
Las Vegas
Dallas
Montjuich
Jarama
Jerez

From the top of my head..

Korea
Valencia

[entropy]

Vocal Minority said:

Now, that, is a valid point.

I am going to be honest - when it comes to modern cars, I think a lot of fans who talk about how they love Hamilton because 'he drives it like he stole it'.

I reckon if you put him and Bottas in identical helmets and took the numbers off the cars 99.99% of people would be hard pressed to tell the difference. People see what they want to see in a driver. The cars are so on rails - if you didn't have a stop watch I think the overwhelming majority would be hard pushed to tell anything.

I couldn't.

If the drivers had more to do in terms of the fundamentals of car control, rather than fiddling with the diff a little, then it may be easier to do.

Bottas is smoother with his inputs whereas Hamilton generally coaxes the car towards the apex but there are variables like the car being a diva, dealing with handling traits, set ups, worrying about tyre temps, different types of circuits, etc. And then balancing those variables with your emotions: hustling a car doesn't always work which is when you get Lewis flustered and then figuring out to be smooth whilst getting the tyre temps right and whatnot.

[coppice]

You are Mark Hughes and I claim my ten pounds prize.

It's a few years since I've watched F1 cars from trackside but it was often easy , with practice, to identify one driver from another by cornering style/ angle / turn in point etc alone . I can think of some drivers whom I could recognise with my eyes shut from power application (Senna, notoriously , used an on off power technique to maintain boost) and gearchanging, in the days when it was a key skill .You'd recognise Lauda from ultrafast, perfectly rev matched downshifts and a driver like Jarier from his missed shifts and awful, clunky attempts at rev matching .

On telly - they now all look on rails most of the time and even the slightest hint of opposite lock is lauded as save of the century and endlessly replayed on slo mo

[harrycovert]

The good old days

[Eric Mc]

That picture looks a bit doctored to me. I think I have a copy of the original which does indeed show the car airborne (it's Jackie Stewart, I think) but this version doesn't look quite right.

[Vocal Minority]

That version is a horrifying photo shop/touch up

Shame as the original doesn't need embellishment!

[Eric Mc]

I thought so. The original is breathtaking.