Tyres - not convinced
Discussion
so big anouncement.
18" from 2021
3 compounds, fast degredation
no blankets
I'm not convinced the tyre strategy itself is right.
deg seems mightily high, loss of 2s of laptime over 10% race distance on soft, at silverstone, lets say 7 laps at a supposed 2.2s/lap faster than hard is 15.4s which is less than a pitstop and will continue to degrade faster than the hard before you take into consideration the warm up, for those 7 laps, how much time will be lost getting heat into them out of the pits?
Can someone convince me this is a good idea when trying to reduce costs.
New cars for 2020 to deal with new aero and possible engine requirements.
New cars for 2021 to deal with new tyres due to;
reduced width (complete Aero redesign)
increased overall diameter and circumference (will raise car so suspension redesign needed or ride heigh goes up and floor based aero is less effective)
Reduction in sidewall affects bump absorbtion (softer suspension to cope? cars will have wider window ride height during lap as softer springs will compress more under aero load.
the big teams with big budgets are going to benefit, the small teams have to decide on a car for 2020 or a car for 2021
18" from 2021
3 compounds, fast degredation
no blankets
I'm not convinced the tyre strategy itself is right.
deg seems mightily high, loss of 2s of laptime over 10% race distance on soft, at silverstone, lets say 7 laps at a supposed 2.2s/lap faster than hard is 15.4s which is less than a pitstop and will continue to degrade faster than the hard before you take into consideration the warm up, for those 7 laps, how much time will be lost getting heat into them out of the pits?
Can someone convince me this is a good idea when trying to reduce costs.
New cars for 2020 to deal with new aero and possible engine requirements.
New cars for 2021 to deal with new tyres due to;
reduced width (complete Aero redesign)
increased overall diameter and circumference (will raise car so suspension redesign needed or ride heigh goes up and floor based aero is less effective)
Reduction in sidewall affects bump absorbtion (softer suspension to cope? cars will have wider window ride height during lap as softer springs will compress more under aero load.
the big teams with big budgets are going to benefit, the small teams have to decide on a car for 2020 or a car for 2021
Net, I’d say this is a good thing. No tyre manufacturer other than Pirelli were willing to supply 13” tyres with good reason.
Tyres which warm up from cold adds another driver differentiator and will hopefully create added variation at the beginning of stints. It also removes the frustrating situation where a driver has an off of a slow period and the tyres ‘drop out of the window’ necessitating an extra pit stop.
It is three compounds per weekend, Pirelli haven’t announced ho many compounds they would actually make yet
Forcing drivers to start on cold tyres at low temperature and banning tyre pressure adjustment will force teams to increase ride heights very slightly which should make the cars slightly less useless in very wet conditions.
If we end up with tyres which are robust and have a wide operating window but don’t go half distance I’d consider that progress.
Tyres which warm up from cold adds another driver differentiator and will hopefully create added variation at the beginning of stints. It also removes the frustrating situation where a driver has an off of a slow period and the tyres ‘drop out of the window’ necessitating an extra pit stop.
It is three compounds per weekend, Pirelli haven’t announced ho many compounds they would actually make yet
Forcing drivers to start on cold tyres at low temperature and banning tyre pressure adjustment will force teams to increase ride heights very slightly which should make the cars slightly less useless in very wet conditions.
If we end up with tyres which are robust and have a wide operating window but don’t go half distance I’d consider that progress.
Overall these regs look positive, IMO.
I quite like the banning of tyre blankets. This will get Pirelli (or the successful tyre manufacturer) to make a tyre that can handle the loads on a fast track like Silverstone rather than imposing high minimum pressures as a crutch as they do, at the moment. It will also require a change in philosophy; how Pirelli had been operating since they became the supplier, using the working temperature range of the tyre as another variable for causing thermal degradation.
Low profile tyres will probably require some spending from the teams on suspension development, but it will make it more predictable I imagine, as the high profile ones are a harder problem to solve with the tyres' own spring rates not quite controllable/predictable as the low profile. There are pros and cons and I'm on the fence on this one.
FIA's target degradation rates for the compounds is also interesting, and I imagine quite challenging to meet with all the other criteria.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter how much a tyre degrades when giving it absolute death. If you can back off the pace a little bit and get twice the race distance out of it while saving a pit stop, teams will continue to do so. It doesn't encourage strategic variety; the engineers will quickly work out the 'right' way to do the race given overtaking ability/fuel target etc etc and everyone will end up on the same page.
I quite like the banning of tyre blankets. This will get Pirelli (or the successful tyre manufacturer) to make a tyre that can handle the loads on a fast track like Silverstone rather than imposing high minimum pressures as a crutch as they do, at the moment. It will also require a change in philosophy; how Pirelli had been operating since they became the supplier, using the working temperature range of the tyre as another variable for causing thermal degradation.
Low profile tyres will probably require some spending from the teams on suspension development, but it will make it more predictable I imagine, as the high profile ones are a harder problem to solve with the tyres' own spring rates not quite controllable/predictable as the low profile. There are pros and cons and I'm on the fence on this one.
FIA's target degradation rates for the compounds is also interesting, and I imagine quite challenging to meet with all the other criteria.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter how much a tyre degrades when giving it absolute death. If you can back off the pace a little bit and get twice the race distance out of it while saving a pit stop, teams will continue to do so. It doesn't encourage strategic variety; the engineers will quickly work out the 'right' way to do the race given overtaking ability/fuel target etc etc and everyone will end up on the same page.
One of the downsides of the 18" wheels: they look s
t!
They make the cars looks like someone's bolted cheap aftermarket chariot wheels on them. Additionally, currently the brake disks take up the entire inner rim of the wheel and their size is limited by it. If they keep the brake size the same with the new wheels, then we'll have a gap between the brake disk and the wheel, which looks terrible. If they increase the brake disk size, then the brakes would become too efficient and braking distances too short, leading to even less overtaking.
I realise aesthetics have never been the driving force in F1, but still. The change to 18" is also driven by cosmetics and "perceived road relevance" (which is of course ridiculous, as F1 tyres are not at all like the tyres we use on our cars anyway). Unnecessary change, if you ask me.
t! They make the cars looks like someone's bolted cheap aftermarket chariot wheels on them. Additionally, currently the brake disks take up the entire inner rim of the wheel and their size is limited by it. If they keep the brake size the same with the new wheels, then we'll have a gap between the brake disk and the wheel, which looks terrible. If they increase the brake disk size, then the brakes would become too efficient and braking distances too short, leading to even less overtaking.
I realise aesthetics have never been the driving force in F1, but still. The change to 18" is also driven by cosmetics and "perceived road relevance" (which is of course ridiculous, as F1 tyres are not at all like the tyres we use on our cars anyway). Unnecessary change, if you ask me.
Salamura said:
One of the downsides of the 18" wheels: they look st!
They make the cars looks like someone's bolted cheap aftermarket chariot wheels on them. Additionally, currently the brake disks take up the entire inner rim of the wheel and their size is limited by it. If they keep the brake size the same with the new wheels, then we'll have a gap between the brake disk and the wheel, which looks terrible. If they increase the brake disk size, then the brakes would become too efficient and braking distances too short, leading to even less overtaking.
I realise aesthetics have never been the driving force in F1, but still. The change to 18" is also driven by cosmetics and "perceived road relevance" (which is of course ridiculous, as F1 tyres are not at all like the tyres we use on our cars anyway). Unnecessary change, if you ask me.
We've never seen an F1 car with tyres as per this proposal before as far as I know, only that 2014? mockup on small radius tyres. t! They make the cars looks like someone's bolted cheap aftermarket chariot wheels on them. Additionally, currently the brake disks take up the entire inner rim of the wheel and their size is limited by it. If they keep the brake size the same with the new wheels, then we'll have a gap between the brake disk and the wheel, which looks terrible. If they increase the brake disk size, then the brakes would become too efficient and braking distances too short, leading to even less overtaking.
I realise aesthetics have never been the driving force in F1, but still. The change to 18" is also driven by cosmetics and "perceived road relevance" (which is of course ridiculous, as F1 tyres are not at all like the tyres we use on our cars anyway). Unnecessary change, if you ask me.
I always liked the look of the 13" wheels but on the current huge cars with the increased radius tyres I will reserve judgment until I see one.
The move to 18" wheels was crucial to attract competition from tyre suppliers. Michelin have already said they wouldn't consider supplying F1 tyres unless larger wheels were adopted.
Taking a look at the cost side of things:
Plus, they are vey expensive bits of kit, consume a huge amount of energy on top of which is the shipping costs. Proportional to the whole, probably not much but enough to be noticeable and welcome - certainly to the smaller teams.
The thing with big changes like this is that it does open up a wider window of opportunity for the smaller teams to make proportionally bigger gains.
We'll see.
andburg said:
3 compounds, fast degradation
I would assume it will cost less per tyre to make as they will be making more of the same type.andburg said:
no blankets
The new tyres would require the blankets to be reengineers so this ban removes that cost.Plus, they are vey expensive bits of kit, consume a huge amount of energy on top of which is the shipping costs. Proportional to the whole, probably not much but enough to be noticeable and welcome - certainly to the smaller teams.
andburg said:
the big teams with big budgets are going to benefit, the small teams have to decide on a car for 2020 or a car for 2021
When has that never been the case?The thing with big changes like this is that it does open up a wider window of opportunity for the smaller teams to make proportionally bigger gains.
We'll see.
HustleRussell said:
Net, I’d say this is a good thing. No tyre manufacturer other than Pirelli were willing to supply 13” tyres with good reason.
Are F1 going to be open to multiple tyre suppliers regardless? I thought having a single supplier was the FIA's choice rather than no-one else being interested?kambites said:
HustleRussell said:
Net, I’d say this is a good thing. No tyre manufacturer other than Pirelli were willing to supply 13” tyres with good reason.
Are F1 going to be open to multiple tyre suppliers regardless? I thought having a single supplier was the FIA's choice rather than no-one else being interested?sly fox said:
Seem to remember the 18in tyre was at suggestion of Michelin a few years ago - parity with production for WEC/LMP cars would lower costs and enable them to supply both formulas.
Yep it was Michelin's idea. But they want nothing to do with the smaller wheels which are required in 2020. This bumps up the development cost for any new manufacturer coming in and i would say biases the tender process towards Pirelli.Apparently Hankook are interested in supplying.
Would switching tyre vendors really make any difference? As I understand it the FIA been very precise about what they want the Pirelli tyres to do and, by and large, Pirelli have delivered. I suppose F1 might be able to milk a more favourable financial deal out of the tyre supplier if there's competition for the contract.
HustleRussell said:
I think the change to 18" wheels was a matter of 'when' not 'if' anyway, it's a bit awkward that the current tyre supplier contract runs until 2020 not 2021 though.
I wonder how the teams will use all that extra space inside the wheels.
Bigger brakes I’d say.I wonder how the teams will use all that extra space inside the wheels.
Although theoretically you could place some kind of (smaller) variation of mgu k.
kambites said:
Would switching tyre vendors really make any difference? As I understand it the FIA been very precise about what they want the Pirelli tyres to do and, by and large, Pirelli have delivered. I suppose F1 might be able to milk a more favourable financial deal out of the tyre supplier if there's competition for the contract.
From what I've read in Motorsport, Pirelli have delivered within the budget set by the value of the contract with FIA. This means they are using non-organic plastics in the compounds to get variable wear rates as it allows the tyres to be extruded. These plastics are what give the tyres the strange characteristics compared to traditional racing tyres. Extrusion is automated and cheaper than other means of manufacture that would be viable if there was more money in the deal. There has always been competition for the contract. Unfortunately lowest price brings compromise. I'm hopeful the new owners have recognised this and will make sure the new deal works for 'the show' (I'm sure Ross Brawn has).
Zarco said:
kambites said:
Would switching tyre vendors really make any difference? As I understand it the FIA been very precise about what they want the Pirelli tyres to do and, by and large, Pirelli have delivered. I suppose F1 might be able to milk a more favourable financial deal out of the tyre supplier if there's competition for the contract.
From what I've read in Motorsport, Pirelli have delivered within the budget set by the value of the contract with FIA. This means they are using non-organic plastics in the compounds to get variable wear rates as it allows the tyres to be extruded. These plastics are what give the tyres the strange characteristics compared to traditional racing tyres. Extrusion is automated and cheaper than other means of manufacture that would be viable if there was more money in the deal. There has always been competition for the contract. Unfortunately lowest price brings compromise. I'm hopeful the new owners have recognised this and will make sure the new deal works for 'the show' (I'm sure Ross Brawn has).
Hard to envisage how you could ‘extrude’ a tyre as such, though the various rubber elements are, and have always been, extruded green before moulding. But that applies to all car tyres as does the use of synthetics.
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