Unlimited offshore powerboat racing in UK/Europe?
Discussion
Just been doing a bit of reading on the RYA website, it seems all the powerboat racing they endorse is basically spec series, up to a maximum of one 5.7l V8 engine, only one boat design permitted to enter, any modification to boat or engine = instant disqualification. IMO this is most unsporting - do we not have anything like what the Americans have going on, especially around Florida?
A couple of points here chaps.
The RYA no longer administer or provide any form of Offshore Powerboat Racing in the UK.
There is a new body that licences and adminsters 'open water offshore powerboat racing' the United Kingdom Offshore Powerboat Racing Association. www.ukopra.co.uk
The series this year has both British and World Championships for various offshore classes and also has our marathon fleet competing for the oldest powerboat racing trophy in the world - The Harmsworth Trophy. Our class structures follow in the main those adopted by UIM in order that we can link back up with Europe at a future date. See below.
Sample pics from a recent event here https://rjc-photography.ifp3.com/#/gallery/poole-1...
In terms of 'unlimited' there is no such thing either here or America. In fact both of our top classes tend to utilise the Mercruiser 1350hp as a maximum motor albeit America are looking next year to wind this back to the 1100hp version. For clarity there are in fact three competing series in America SBI, RWO and APBA all with different class structures. The Florida events referred to are most likely the SBI series.
A large disparity we have is that we do not allow Catamarans in our marathon class due to the fact that we run longer courses in unsanitised waters with the crew prepared to look after their own safety whereas America has fallen in to the model of racing on short circuits where it is possible to provide a degree of course sanitation and outside safety assistance.
Our own team run offshore boats both here and in Bermuda with our Bermudan team members mainly competing here this year. The series has also attracted other nationalities to take part with examples such as Warpath, an American boat rigged by Bobby Saccienti, driven by Ole Finholt a Norwegian, Throttled by Glen Chidzoy from Antibes and navigated by Gordon Compton from the UK
As for in Europe our traditional relationships with Scandinavia are frustrated somewhat by the RYA dragging their heels to stand aside as recognised governing body with the UIM meaning yet again the European Championships being held in Smogen this weekend have no UK entries as their licences do not afford them eligibility to take part. Of course as a consequence of not being able to attract sufficient number of entries or countries the championship itself cannot meet the criteria of a World Championship so the loss is for all parties not just UK based competitors.
So the damage referred to above continues however the sport of offshore is well on it's way in to revival in the UK with the fleet already returned to numbers not seen in at least the past decade.
The RYA no longer administer or provide any form of Offshore Powerboat Racing in the UK.
There is a new body that licences and adminsters 'open water offshore powerboat racing' the United Kingdom Offshore Powerboat Racing Association. www.ukopra.co.uk
The series this year has both British and World Championships for various offshore classes and also has our marathon fleet competing for the oldest powerboat racing trophy in the world - The Harmsworth Trophy. Our class structures follow in the main those adopted by UIM in order that we can link back up with Europe at a future date. See below.
Sample pics from a recent event here https://rjc-photography.ifp3.com/#/gallery/poole-1...
In terms of 'unlimited' there is no such thing either here or America. In fact both of our top classes tend to utilise the Mercruiser 1350hp as a maximum motor albeit America are looking next year to wind this back to the 1100hp version. For clarity there are in fact three competing series in America SBI, RWO and APBA all with different class structures. The Florida events referred to are most likely the SBI series.
A large disparity we have is that we do not allow Catamarans in our marathon class due to the fact that we run longer courses in unsanitised waters with the crew prepared to look after their own safety whereas America has fallen in to the model of racing on short circuits where it is possible to provide a degree of course sanitation and outside safety assistance.
Our own team run offshore boats both here and in Bermuda with our Bermudan team members mainly competing here this year. The series has also attracted other nationalities to take part with examples such as Warpath, an American boat rigged by Bobby Saccienti, driven by Ole Finholt a Norwegian, Throttled by Glen Chidzoy from Antibes and navigated by Gordon Compton from the UK
As for in Europe our traditional relationships with Scandinavia are frustrated somewhat by the RYA dragging their heels to stand aside as recognised governing body with the UIM meaning yet again the European Championships being held in Smogen this weekend have no UK entries as their licences do not afford them eligibility to take part. Of course as a consequence of not being able to attract sufficient number of entries or countries the championship itself cannot meet the criteria of a World Championship so the loss is for all parties not just UK based competitors.
So the damage referred to above continues however the sport of offshore is well on it's way in to revival in the UK with the fleet already returned to numbers not seen in at least the past decade.
MOTORVATOR said:
We do not allow Catamarans in our marathon class due to the fact that we run longer courses in unsanitised waters with the crew prepared to look after their own safety
For those of us who only understand things with wheels, could you explain the reasoning behind this please.I've heard sooth said of the RYA before. It really seems a shame, I'd love to see some proper tear-the-rulebook-up racing going on in UK waters.
Is there any reason why we couldn't have monster boats with big-block V8s, V12s or whatever pushing 3000bhp per shaft?
Nanook said:
Making everyone follow the rules and regulations is unsporting?
That word must mean something different to you, than it does to me.
Watched the racing off Greenock last year. Not a great spectator sport IMO. One of those ones that works better on TV IMO.
What I'm saying is that imposing a single design of boat with one permitted engine at one permitted output is unsporting. 320bhp from what I presume to be an LS1 or old-school Chev 350 SB is not that much...That word must mean something different to you, than it does to me.
Watched the racing off Greenock last year. Not a great spectator sport IMO. One of those ones that works better on TV IMO.
Is there any reason why we couldn't have monster boats with big-block V8s, V12s or whatever pushing 3000bhp per shaft?
I’ve posted this pic before in here.
During the mid-80s my brother worked for Bill Bonner, who at the time was developing marinised version of the Jaguar V12.
It was fitted to two boats, a monohull Goldrush and a Cougar catermaran Supercat.
For around four years both boats competed on the Class 1 offshore series around the UK.
They had a small measure of success, mixed with unreliability, mainly with the Arnesen stern drives.
At the time, Supercat was the most powerful boat on the circuit, twin V12s pushing out 1700 bhp.
IIRC they ran at Windermere Soeed Trials one year and broke the Britsh record getting to c115 mph.
During the mid-80s my brother worked for Bill Bonner, who at the time was developing marinised version of the Jaguar V12.
It was fitted to two boats, a monohull Goldrush and a Cougar catermaran Supercat.
For around four years both boats competed on the Class 1 offshore series around the UK.
They had a small measure of success, mixed with unreliability, mainly with the Arnesen stern drives.
At the time, Supercat was the most powerful boat on the circuit, twin V12s pushing out 1700 bhp.
IIRC they ran at Windermere Soeed Trials one year and broke the Britsh record getting to c115 mph.
CanAm said:
MOTORVATOR said:
We do not allow Catamarans in our marathon class due to the fact that we run longer courses in unsanitised waters with the crew prepared to look after their own safety
For those of us who only understand things with wheels, could you explain the reasoning behind this please.In slightly more detail catamarans could also be said to be responsible for courses becoming shorter circuit type and not suited to exposed waters.
RoverP6B said:
I've heard sooth said of the RYA before. It really seems a shame, I'd love to see some proper tear-the-rulebook-up racing going on in UK waters.
Is there any reason why we couldn't have monster boats with big-block V8s, V12s or whatever pushing 3000bhp per shaft?
You are being misled by reading the RYA website which does not reflect what we race. The class you are referring to is V24 of which there are only or two left racing in the UK. The supposed idea of a one design boat that died a death a few years ago.Nanook said:
Making everyone follow the rules and regulations is unsporting?
That word must mean something different to you, than it does to me.
Watched the racing off Greenock last year. Not a great spectator sport IMO. One of those ones that works better on TV IMO.
What I'm saying is that imposing a single design of boat with one permitted engine at one permitted output is unsporting. 320bhp from what I presume to be an LS1 or old-school Chev 350 SB is not that much...That word must mean something different to you, than it does to me.
Watched the racing off Greenock last year. Not a great spectator sport IMO. One of those ones that works better on TV IMO.
Is there any reason why we couldn't have monster boats with big-block V8s, V12s or whatever pushing 3000bhp per shaft?
If you look at the pictures above you will see a huge variety of offshore boats taking part in our series including for instance an Outerlimits powered by twin 1350hp Mercruisers. As for 3000bhp per shaft as you put it if you can design a big block V8 or V12 that will sustain that sort of power at full throttle for over an hour you are a better man than the likes of Lambourghini. This is where marine engines and auto engines diverge substantially. Then you also get into an exotic world of being able to transmit that power to the water. It is one thing to design gearboxes and drivetrains to sustain that sort of power being put down as a boat enters and leaves the water but a real feat of engineering to design propellors that can continue to be efficient all the way through the intended speeds you expect to attain doing the same. ;-)
wobert said:
I’ve posted this pic before in here.
During the mid-80s my brother worked for Bill Bonner, who at the time was developing marinised version of the Jaguar V12.
It was fitted to two boats, a monohull Goldrush and a Cougar catermaran Supercat.
For around four years both boats competed on the Class 1 offshore series around the UK.
They had a small measure of success, mixed with unreliability, mainly with the Arnesen stern drives.
At the time, Supercat was the most powerful boat on the circuit, twin V12s pushing out 1700 bhp.
IIRC they ran at Windermere Soeed Trials one year and broke the Britsh record getting to c115 mph.
Now THAT is what I'm talking about! Properly insane... how did they get the Jag V12 to 850bhp? I'm guessing lots of boost... I used to drink in the same pub (recently illegally demolished) as a lot of the Lister guys here in Leatherhead, they said some of their twin-supercharged lumps were pushing north of 1000, somewhere around 1200 IIRC?During the mid-80s my brother worked for Bill Bonner, who at the time was developing marinised version of the Jaguar V12.
It was fitted to two boats, a monohull Goldrush and a Cougar catermaran Supercat.
For around four years both boats competed on the Class 1 offshore series around the UK.
They had a small measure of success, mixed with unreliability, mainly with the Arnesen stern drives.
At the time, Supercat was the most powerful boat on the circuit, twin V12s pushing out 1700 bhp.
IIRC they ran at Windermere Soeed Trials one year and broke the Britsh record getting to c115 mph.
MOTORVATOR said:
You are being misled by reading the RYA website which does not reflect what we race. The class you are referring to is V24 of which there are only or two left racing in the UK. The supposed idea of a one design boat that died a death a few years ago.
If you look at the pictures above you will see a huge variety of offshore boats taking part in our series including for instance an Outerlimits powered by twin 1350hp Mercruisers. As for 3000bhp per shaft as you put it if you can design a big block V8 or V12 that will sustain that sort of power at full throttle for over an hour you are a better man than the likes of Lambourghini. This is where marine engines and auto engines diverge substantially. Then you also get into an exotic world of being able to transmit that power to the water. It is one thing to design gearboxes and drivetrains to sustain that sort of power being put down as a boat enters and leaves the water but a real feat of engineering to design propellors that can continue to be efficient all the way through the intended speeds you expect to attain doing the same. ;-)
Right! I suppose that here, as with all things, there's no replacement for displacement... getting a durable, reliable 3000bhp out of a twin-turbo Chev 572 big block is probably a lot harder than with 27 litres of Rolls-Royce Merlin... and even then, the Reno Mustangs apparently need a total of four engines - transport engine, race engine and spares for both... what I wonder about is some of the enormous big-blocks available on the aftermarket, there's a guy called Sonny Leonard builds a 1006ci (16.5-litre) V8 for drag racing, with a 5.22in bore and 5.875in stroke - only slightly less than the Merlin (5.4in bore, 6in stroke) - which, naturally aspirated, makes 2150bhp @ 8000 rpm and 1500ftlb @ 6200rpm on 112-octane fuel. I'd imagine that, if you were to limit it to 5000rpm (at which point it would be turning at a mean piston speed of just under 4900fpm, compared to 5280fpm for the current Audi R8 V10 at its 8250rpm redline), you could get quite reasonable reliability - and it would still be pushing nearly 1350bhp N/A (indeed, there's a guy in Denmark running one in a modified C3 Corvette road car, fuelled on E85, that's making 1360bhp @ 5500rpm and 1314ftlb of torque (rpm not specified), on a milder 12.5:1 compression (the race engine runs 17:1). Add a bit of boost...If you look at the pictures above you will see a huge variety of offshore boats taking part in our series including for instance an Outerlimits powered by twin 1350hp Mercruisers. As for 3000bhp per shaft as you put it if you can design a big block V8 or V12 that will sustain that sort of power at full throttle for over an hour you are a better man than the likes of Lambourghini. This is where marine engines and auto engines diverge substantially. Then you also get into an exotic world of being able to transmit that power to the water. It is one thing to design gearboxes and drivetrains to sustain that sort of power being put down as a boat enters and leaves the water but a real feat of engineering to design propellors that can continue to be efficient all the way through the intended speeds you expect to attain doing the same. ;-)
Regarding propellers, I understand that Vosper Thornycroft used an innovative cavitating design for their fast patrol boats, which, in the case of the Brave class, were pushing 3750hp per shaft, using Bristol Proteus gas turbines (now there's a thought... how about a modern equivalent with a pair of big modern turboprops?)... the VT-built superyacht Brave Challenger is still around, there's a thread on its ongoing restoration here on PH.
RoverP6B said:
Right! I suppose that here, as with all things, there's no replacement for displacement... getting a durable, reliable 3000bhp out of a twin-turbo Chev 572 big block is probably a lot harder than with 27 litres of Rolls-Royce Merlin... and even then, the Reno Mustangs apparently need a total of four engines - transport engine, race engine and spares for both... what I wonder about is some of the enormous big-blocks available on the aftermarket, there's a guy called Sonny Leonard builds a 1006ci (16.5-litre) V8 for drag racing, with a 5.22in bore and 5.875in stroke - only slightly less than the Merlin (5.4in bore, 6in stroke) - which, naturally aspirated, makes 2150bhp @ 8000 rpm and 1500ftlb @ 6200rpm on 112-octane fuel. I'd imagine that, if you were to limit it to 5000rpm (at which point it would be turning at a mean piston speed of just under 4900fpm, compared to 5280fpm for the current Audi R8 V10 at its 8250rpm redline), you could get quite reasonable reliability - and it would still be pushing nearly 1350bhp N/A (indeed, there's a guy in Denmark running one in a modified C3 Corvette road car, fuelled on E85, that's making 1360bhp @ 5500rpm and 1314ftlb of torque (rpm not specified), on a milder 12.5:1 compression (the race engine runs 17:1). Add a bit of boost...
Regarding propellers, I understand that Vosper Thornycroft used an innovative cavitating design for their fast patrol boats, which, in the case of the Brave class, were pushing 3750hp per shaft, using Bristol Proteus gas turbines (now there's a thought... how about a modern equivalent with a pair of big modern turboprops?)... the VT-built superyacht Brave Challenger is still around, there's a thread on its ongoing restoration here on PH.
Whilst I see your passion for enormous horsepower it has no place in powerboat racing as it just becomes a contest for who can spend the most money. For reference see the story of Tramontana that won the Cowes Torquay race in 1962. Rules were bought in subsequent to that win to limit the cubic capacity of race boats taking part in that race. In fact I'm not sure there is any form of motorsport where power or cubic capacity etc are just totally unlimited?Regarding propellers, I understand that Vosper Thornycroft used an innovative cavitating design for their fast patrol boats, which, in the case of the Brave class, were pushing 3750hp per shaft, using Bristol Proteus gas turbines (now there's a thought... how about a modern equivalent with a pair of big modern turboprops?)... the VT-built superyacht Brave Challenger is still around, there's a thread on its ongoing restoration here on PH.
That sort of thing is reserved for record breaking not racing.
Engines wise though as I mentioned above Mercury racing will provide you with 1350Hp from 10 litres and if you wish they can take that right up to 1750 hp and beyond but they won't provide much longevity running at that level for extended periods.
And racing props have moved on somewhat since the Tramontana days with surface piercing props being the order of the day. The problems you will experience though as you faster is that you only have a single gear and there will always be a compromise between the highest efficiency for top speed and physically being able to get the boat up and planing and indeed holding it there in rougher waters.
RoverP6B said:
wobert said:
I’ve posted this pic before in here.
During the mid-80s my brother worked for Bill Bonner, who at the time was developing marinised version of the Jaguar V12.
It was fitted to two boats, a monohull Goldrush and a Cougar catermaran Supercat.
For around four years both boats competed on the Class 1 offshore series around the UK.
They had a small measure of success, mixed with unreliability, mainly with the Arnesen stern drives.
At the time, Supercat was the most powerful boat on the circuit, twin V12s pushing out 1700 bhp.
IIRC they ran at Windermere Soeed Trials one year and broke the Britsh record getting to c115 mph.
Now THAT is what I'm talking about! Properly insane... how did they get the Jag V12 to 850bhp? I'm guessing lots of boost... I used to drink in the same pub (recently illegally demolished) as a lot of the Lister guys here in Leatherhead, they said some of their twin-supercharged lumps were pushing north of 1000, somewhere around 1200 IIRC?During the mid-80s my brother worked for Bill Bonner, who at the time was developing marinised version of the Jaguar V12.
It was fitted to two boats, a monohull Goldrush and a Cougar catermaran Supercat.
For around four years both boats competed on the Class 1 offshore series around the UK.
They had a small measure of success, mixed with unreliability, mainly with the Arnesen stern drives.
At the time, Supercat was the most powerful boat on the circuit, twin V12s pushing out 1700 bhp.
IIRC they ran at Windermere Soeed Trials one year and broke the Britsh record getting to c115 mph.
MOTORVATOR said:
You are being misled by reading the RYA website which does not reflect what we race. The class you are referring to is V24 of which there are only or two left racing in the UK. The supposed idea of a one design boat that died a death a few years ago.
If you look at the pictures above you will see a huge variety of offshore boats taking part in our series including for instance an Outerlimits powered by twin 1350hp Mercruisers. As for 3000bhp per shaft as you put it if you can design a big block V8 or V12 that will sustain that sort of power at full throttle for over an hour you are a better man than the likes of Lambourghini. This is where marine engines and auto engines diverge substantially. Then you also get into an exotic world of being able to transmit that power to the water. It is one thing to design gearboxes and drivetrains to sustain that sort of power being put down as a boat enters and leaves the water but a real feat of engineering to design propellors that can continue to be efficient all the way through the intended speeds you expect to attain doing the same. ;-)
Right! I suppose that here, as with all things, there's no replacement for displacement... getting a durable, reliable 3000bhp out of a twin-turbo Chev 572 big block is probably a lot harder than with 27 litres of Rolls-Royce Merlin... and even then, the Reno Mustangs apparently need a total of four engines - transport engine, race engine and spares for both... what I wonder about is some of the enormous big-blocks available on the aftermarket, there's a guy called Sonny Leonard builds a 1006ci (16.5-litre) V8 for drag racing, with a 5.22in bore and 5.875in stroke - only slightly less than the Merlin (5.4in bore, 6in stroke) - which, naturally aspirated, makes 2150bhp @ 8000 rpm and 1500ftlb @ 6200rpm on 112-octane fuel. I'd imagine that, if you were to limit it to 5000rpm (at which point it would be turning at a mean piston speed of just under 4900fpm, compared to 5280fpm for the current Audi R8 V10 at its 8250rpm redline), you could get quite reasonable reliability - and it would still be pushing nearly 1350bhp N/A (indeed, there's a guy in Denmark running one in a modified C3 Corvette road car, fuelled on E85, that's making 1360bhp @ 5500rpm and 1314ftlb of torque (rpm not specified), on a milder 12.5:1 compression (the race engine runs 17:1). Add a bit of boost...If you look at the pictures above you will see a huge variety of offshore boats taking part in our series including for instance an Outerlimits powered by twin 1350hp Mercruisers. As for 3000bhp per shaft as you put it if you can design a big block V8 or V12 that will sustain that sort of power at full throttle for over an hour you are a better man than the likes of Lambourghini. This is where marine engines and auto engines diverge substantially. Then you also get into an exotic world of being able to transmit that power to the water. It is one thing to design gearboxes and drivetrains to sustain that sort of power being put down as a boat enters and leaves the water but a real feat of engineering to design propellors that can continue to be efficient all the way through the intended speeds you expect to attain doing the same. ;-)
Regarding propellers, I understand that Vosper Thornycroft used an innovative cavitating design for their fast patrol boats, which, in the case of the Brave class, were pushing 3750hp per shaft, using Bristol Proteus gas turbines (now there's a thought... how about a modern equivalent with a pair of big modern turboprops?)... the VT-built superyacht Brave Challenger is still around, there's a thread on its ongoing restoration here on PH.
IIRC the engines were twin turbocharged and bored out to 6 litres.
The stern drives, however were made from cheese, always having problems with them, mainly hydraulic related.
When you looked at the boat’s contemporaries, all used much simpler steering options of a traditional rudder arrangement and separate trim tabs.
The team used to drop the boat into the harbour at Shoreham for testing out at sea.
I used to love standing on the harbour arm as the boat headed out, turbos spooling up over a twin V12 soundtrack....
Edited by wobert on Sunday 22 July 20:24
It's interesting that a few years ago the top glass of UIM Marathon Jet Boats moved on from twin-turbo big block V8's running Av-gas and started embracing Jet turbines to drive modern water jet units. They'd hit the limits of reliable power from marinised automotive internal combustion (IC) engines. I believe most of these new boats are using cycled-out helicopter jet turbines and other sources of "lifed-out" aviation turbine engines.
It's a significant point - the difference between the requirements of marine & aviation engines v automotive applications.
Marine & aviation power plants have to run at very high power settings for long periods (typically 80% of maximum power output), without any respite or let-up. This definitely favours low rpm internal combustion engines such as big capacity turbo diesels or precision built gas turbines with their rotation forces acting smoothly around a central shaft.
It's a significant point - the difference between the requirements of marine & aviation engines v automotive applications.
Marine & aviation power plants have to run at very high power settings for long periods (typically 80% of maximum power output), without any respite or let-up. This definitely favours low rpm internal combustion engines such as big capacity turbo diesels or precision built gas turbines with their rotation forces acting smoothly around a central shaft.
Penguinracer said:
Correction - I believe ITM is the governing body for these Jet/Jet Boats!
There's something superbly pure and symmetrical about using an air-breathing jet engine to drive a water jet unit.
New Zealand based stuff where they run on the waterways. The water jet whilst not very efficient is able to run in very shallow waters and I believe they are restricted by having a maximum speed that they are not allowed to break out of.There's something superbly pure and symmetrical about using an air-breathing jet engine to drive a water jet unit.
Similarly in Oz they run what's called jetsprint which are huge power piston motors linked to water jets and run around very small tight courses basically dug out in a field and filled with water!
About the closest you come to unlimited is the H1 Hydroplane stuff but it only really carries the name unlimited as a nod to the old speed records background. I think, but not sure, that they are limited to a Lycoming but must derive their propulsion from the water.
None of the above though are Offshore racing boats and would be unlikely to survive a race with them even if allowed.
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