Goodbye Fernando...
Discussion
Exige77 said:
Stan the Bat said:
As a spectator I want to see racers and he is one of the best, I don't give a toss about the politics .
The guys that pay him do Will be interesting once Alonso is gone and people have time to reflect on whether they can consider Alonso to be one of the greats like Senna, Schumacher, Prost, Fangio, Clark and now Hamilton
37chevy said:
And there lies the problem with Alonso. All the greatest f1 drivers haven’t just been insanely talented on track, but also really savvy off it.
Will be interesting once Alonso is gone and people have time to reflect on whether they can consider Alonso to be one of the greats like Senna, Schumacher, Prost, Fangio, Clark and now Hamilton
Hamilton is considered a great?Will be interesting once Alonso is gone and people have time to reflect on whether they can consider Alonso to be one of the greats like Senna, Schumacher, Prost, Fangio, Clark and now Hamilton
Then it's a no-brainer that Alonso is as well.
They are both very evenly matched.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
If Hamilton is considered a great then it's a no-brainer for Alonso.
But can any be compared to the real greats?
That is an argument which will run and run.
What leads you to think that? On what basis can Alonso be considered a great?But can any be compared to the real greats?
That is an argument which will run and run.
Edited by ELUSIVEJIM on Wednesday 19th September 21:18
He was beaten by his rookie teammate
He hasn’t won a championship since
He’s won 2 championships to Hamilton’s 4 maybe 5
He hasn’t been in a competitive car for several years through his own career choices/ mistakes
How are they evenly matched?
Exige77 said:
Jim’s impartiality is eluding him.
Blinded by his his rose coloured spectacles ?
Maybe, but he’s entitled to his opinion.Blinded by his his rose coloured spectacles ?
My biggest problem with the Alonso is a great debate, is that he hasn’t has a car to show us how good he is for the best part of 10 years, except a year at Ferrari. Whether his fault or not, I don’t know how anyone can class him as a great if his cars haven’t allowed him to show us what he’s got.
37chevy said:
Exige77 said:
Jim’s impartiality is eluding him.
Blinded by his his rose coloured spectacles ?
Maybe, but he’s entitled to his opinion.Blinded by his his rose coloured spectacles ?
My biggest problem with the Alonso is a great debate, is that he hasn’t has a car to show us how good he is for the best part of 10 years, except a year at Ferrari. Whether his fault or not, I don’t know how anyone can class him as a great if his cars haven’t allowed him to show us what he’s got.
Records will show he’s won 2 WDC a long time ago.
37chevy said:
What leads you to think that? On what basis can Alonso be considered a great?
He was beaten by his rookie teammate
He hasn’t won a championship since
He’s won 2 championships to Hamilton’s 4 maybe 5
He hasn’t been in a competitive car for several years through his own career choices/ mistakes
How are they evenly matched?
The 2007 season can be argued forever. Clearly, things were going on behind the scenes. Hamilton was no angel himself. He was beaten by his rookie teammate
He hasn’t won a championship since
He’s won 2 championships to Hamilton’s 4 maybe 5
He hasn’t been in a competitive car for several years through his own career choices/ mistakes
How are they evenly matched?
What gets me about 2007 is that after that season McLaren then wants Alonso back for 2015. If he was that bad why?
Alonso hasn't won a Championship since due to not having the best car on the grid.
But he was close on a few occasions but again had the inferior car.
Yes, Hamilton has won 4/5 Championship but was his move to Mercedes inspired or luck?
If Alonso had moved to Mercedes in 2014 then he would be in the exact same situation as Hamilton there is no doubt.
But yes Alonso has made life very difficult for himself and this is why he is stuck in a rubbish car.
But we can't just state one driver is better because of more Championships.
Does anyone here really think Vettel is better than Alonso because he has four?
I would state that Hamilton and Alonso are at the same level.
Both have flaws but both are still better than the whole current F1 field.
Verstappen on a good day is getting there.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 19th September 22:21
ELUSIVEJIM said:
The 2007 season can be argued forever. Clearly, things were going on behind the scenes. Hamilton was no angel himself.
What gets me about 2007 is that after that season McLaren then wants Alonso back for 2015. If he was that bad why?
Alonso hasn't won a Championship since due to not having the best car on the grid.
But he was close on a few occasions but again had the inferior car.
Yes, Hamilton has won 4/5 Championship but was his move to Mercedes inspired or luck?
If Alonso had moved to Mercedes in 2014 then he would be in the exact same situation as Hamilton there is no doubt.
But yes Alonso has made life very difficult for himself and this is why he is stuck in a rubbish car.
But we can't just state one driver is better because of more Championships.
Does anyone here really think Vettel is better than Alonso because he has four?
I would state that Hamilton and Alonso are at the same level.
Both have flaws but both are still better than the whole current F1 field.
Verstappen on a good day is getting there.
2007 won’t be argued forever. Hamilton as a rookie beat his champion teammate, end ofWhat gets me about 2007 is that after that season McLaren then wants Alonso back for 2015. If he was that bad why?
Alonso hasn't won a Championship since due to not having the best car on the grid.
But he was close on a few occasions but again had the inferior car.
Yes, Hamilton has won 4/5 Championship but was his move to Mercedes inspired or luck?
If Alonso had moved to Mercedes in 2014 then he would be in the exact same situation as Hamilton there is no doubt.
But yes Alonso has made life very difficult for himself and this is why he is stuck in a rubbish car.
But we can't just state one driver is better because of more Championships.
Does anyone here really think Vettel is better than Alonso because he has four?
I would state that Hamilton and Alonso are at the same level.
Both have flaws but both are still better than the whole current F1 field.
Verstappen on a good day is getting there.
Edited by ELUSIVEJIM on Wednesday 19th September 22:21
IF things were going on behind the scenes, then that’s a weakness on Alonsos part...do you think greats like Senna or Schumacher would allow that to happen?
In 2015 Mclaren needed an experienced driver back to help develop the car and Honda engine. As was stated at the time by many pundits, there wasn’t another driver out there of alonsos experience and Alonso had nowhere else to go, and it wasn’t an ideal situation for either party
Hamilton’s move to Mercedes was a shrewd move, he could see the vision brawn had at the time, like when Schumacher moved to Ferrari and moved teams at the right time...again another trait that most great drivers have.
I agree, I don’t think Vettel is better than Alonso in terms of ability, but its a failing of Alonso, who seems to upset teams, whereas Vettel kept red bull happy.
Would say that Hamilton is better than Alonso. Not only is he more successful, he is the best qualifier ever, has won multiple championships with different teams, is unparalleled by any driver on the current grid in the wet, has a great racing instinct....and knows how to play the team game and politics.
I agree Hamilton and Alonso are the best 2 drivers on the grid....but.....
...simply put, Alonso isn’t on the same level as Hamilton. And if his ability to drive a car is, he hasn’t shown it through his lack of ability to handle teams and politics...again all great drivers like Senna, Prost, Schumacher etc, have all these traits...
Edited by 37chevy on Wednesday 19th September 22:38
Exige77 said:
TobyTR said:
Exige77 said:
Better all rounder ? Except in the desirability stakes. No one wants him. That trumps anything good he has to offer.
McLaren and his past teams would disagree on that, considering the results he brings to the table. 
He's the difference in McLaren being 8th-9th in the Constructors Championship and where they're currently at now - 6th.Edited by TobyTR on Wednesday 19th September 04:40
Edited by TobyTR on Wednesday 19th September 04:41
A lot of blinkered incorrect arguments on this thread about Alonso being disruptive at every team he's been at, when that hasn't been the case. It's simply not true.
The only things that stand out are 2007 at McLaren and the latter half of 2014 when he was partly-shafted at Ferrari by Mattiacci. That's it. Even in 2007 (his most insecure underperforming year) and 2014 he still delivered on track. Like he does EVERY year.
Point out a season where he has not delivered? I don't care about supposed unfounded 'politics' and being difficult to work with... and I doubt McLaren give a hoot considering he's got them up to 6th in the Constructors Championship - they would rather have him than not.
Jenson Button didn't have a problem with him as teammate... He even said that Alonso was his toughest teammate in his career. So much hate on this thread for the guy it's laughable.
People need to read this objectively and take on board the facts: https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/f1/matt...
ELUSIVEJIM said:
The 2007 season can be argued forever. Clearly, things were going on behind the scenes. Hamilton was no angel himself.
What gets me about 2007 is that after that season McLaren then wants Alonso back for 2015. If he was that bad why?
Alonso hasn't won a Championship since due to not having the best car on the grid.
But he was close on a few occasions but again had the inferior car.
Yes, Hamilton has won 4/5 Championship but was his move to Mercedes inspired or luck?
If Alonso had moved to Mercedes in 2014 then he would be in the exact same situation as Hamilton there is no doubt.
But yes Alonso has made life very difficult for himself and this is why he is stuck in a rubbish car.
But we can't just state one driver is better because of more Championships.
Does anyone here really think Vettel is better than Alonso because he has four?
I would state that Hamilton and Alonso are at the same level.
Both have flaws but both are still better than the whole current F1 field.
Verstappen on a good day is getting there.
Nailed it. Where was Hamilton throughout 2010-2013 while Alonso was finishing runner-up in an inferior car? I admire his driving abilities immensely, but I don't see Schumacher, Senna or Alonso getting beaten by Rosberg in the same car to a WDC. Martin Brundle's analysis of Alonso's all-round ability nails it for me.What gets me about 2007 is that after that season McLaren then wants Alonso back for 2015. If he was that bad why?
Alonso hasn't won a Championship since due to not having the best car on the grid.
But he was close on a few occasions but again had the inferior car.
Yes, Hamilton has won 4/5 Championship but was his move to Mercedes inspired or luck?
If Alonso had moved to Mercedes in 2014 then he would be in the exact same situation as Hamilton there is no doubt.
But yes Alonso has made life very difficult for himself and this is why he is stuck in a rubbish car.
But we can't just state one driver is better because of more Championships.
Does anyone here really think Vettel is better than Alonso because he has four?
I would state that Hamilton and Alonso are at the same level.
Both have flaws but both are still better than the whole current F1 field.
Verstappen on a good day is getting there.
Edited by ELUSIVEJIM on Wednesday 19th September 22:21
Edited by TobyTR on Thursday 20th September 00:41
TobyTR said:
Nailed it. Where was Hamilton throughout 2010-2013 while Alonso was finishing runner-up in an inferior car? I admire his driving abilities immensely, but I don't see Schumacher, Senna or Alonso getting beaten by Rosberg in the same car to a WDC. Martin Brundle's analysis of Alonso's all-round ability nails it for me.
Interesting but I believe that Rosberg will have Won more championship against Alonso than Hamilton. The reason is that Rosberg was simply much better at qualifying than Alonso. His speed over one lap was very very close to Hamilton and that what made him a thought opponent in an area of F1 where the cars are difficult to overtake due to the aero. Another thing is that Mercedes will not have given Alonso number 1 statue in the team, which would have made life very hard for his ego. We saw it with Schumacher no number 1 statue at Mercedes against Rosberg, where did Schumacher finished against Rosberg? He got beaten twice... Edited by TobyTR on Thursday 20th September 00:41
Ron wanted the Honda deal to get away from Mercedes.
Honda wanted Alonso as part of the deal and would pay his salary.
Ron had to eat humble pie and do what ever was needed to get Alonso which is what he did.
Alonso is a fine driver but not one of the greats.
The Alonso fanatics can bleat on all they like but the record books will show a 2 time WDC (some concerns about the WDC Renault) and that no team wants him now even though he’s still apparently the best driver on the grid.
Honda wanted Alonso as part of the deal and would pay his salary.
Ron had to eat humble pie and do what ever was needed to get Alonso which is what he did.
Alonso is a fine driver but not one of the greats.
The Alonso fanatics can bleat on all they like but the record books will show a 2 time WDC (some concerns about the WDC Renault) and that no team wants him now even though he’s still apparently the best driver on the grid.
Exige77 said:
Alonso is a fine driver but not one of the greats.
The Alonso fanatics can bleat on all they like but the record books will show a 2 time WDC (some concerns about the WDC Renault) and that no team wants him now even though he’s still apparently the best driver on the grid.
So why is Alonso rated by the TPs consistently as one of the top 2 every year (Autosport survey).The Alonso fanatics can bleat on all they like but the record books will show a 2 time WDC (some concerns about the WDC Renault) and that no team wants him now even though he’s still apparently the best driver on the grid.
He is one of the greats. He is like many greats, deeply flawed.
Vaud said:
Exige77 said:
Alonso is a fine driver but not one of the greats.
The Alonso fanatics can bleat on all they like but the record books will show a 2 time WDC (some concerns about the WDC Renault) and that no team wants him now even though he’s still apparently the best driver on the grid.
So why is Alonso rated by the TPs consistently as one of the top 2 every year (Autosport survey).The Alonso fanatics can bleat on all they like but the record books will show a 2 time WDC (some concerns about the WDC Renault) and that no team wants him now even though he’s still apparently the best driver on the grid.
He is one of the greats. He is like many greats, deeply flawed.
E34-3.2 said:
Interesting but I believe that Rosberg will have Won more championship against Alonso than Hamilton. The reason is that Rosberg was simply much better at qualifying than Alonso. His speed over one lap was very very close to Hamilton and that what made him a thought opponent in an area of F1 where the cars are difficult to overtake due to the aero. Another thing is that Mercedes will not have given Alonso number 1 statue in the team, which would have made life very hard for his ego. We saw it with Schumacher no number 1 statue at Mercedes against Rosberg, where did Schumacher finished against Rosberg? He got beaten twice...
Rosberg was simply much better at qualifying? He’s had 30 poles in his whole career compared to Alonso’s 22. So only 8 more and that’s despite having the most dominant car in F1 for 4 years!Will Rosberg be remembered as a great driver, no chance. I don’t he’s ever overtaken Hamilton on track either.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
What gets me about 2007 is that after that season McLaren then wants Alonso back for 2015. If he was that bad why?
Revenge is a dish best served cold.At the time i was gobsmacked Ron employed Alonso again.
All the bulls
t Ron came out with at the time about how brilliant the Honda dyno figures were etc. Could be looked at in hindsight as just the noises required to snag Fernando, with Ron knowing it could be a stty few years for the F1 team.At the time Ron was pushing hard for more focus to be away from the F1 operation part of the business, it was less of a priority for him, so could be the ultimate stitch up job.
jsf said:
All the bullst Ron came out with at the time about how brilliant the Honda dyno figures were etc. Could be looked at in hindsight as just the noises required to snag Fernando, with Ron knowing it could be a stty few years for the F1 team.
Or Honda were unintentionally misleading Ron... remember they were single cylinder dyno figures, extrapolated, IIRC.t Ron came out with at the time about how brilliant the Honda dyno figures were etc. Could be looked at in hindsight as just the noises required to snag Fernando, with Ron knowing it could be a stty few years for the F1 team.Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff