Our Damon in Adelaide

Our Damon in Adelaide

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Discussion

Nampahc Niloc

Original Poster:

118 posts

26 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
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cb1965 said:
Whatever, it's not for this thread, but if you wish to start one please do. Just don't whinge about 'our Damon' in Adelaide 94 as the British fans' version of events aren't the same as the rest of the world's.
Just out of curiosity, how does the rest of the world see this?

Eric Mc

108,217 posts

213 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
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Probably the way we did when it was discussed on PH before.

//j17

3,313 posts

171 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
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What most British/Hill fans saw was Schumacher deliberately and maliciously turning right and driving in to Hill, who was miles ahead of him and clearly had right of way at the corner.

The rest of the world, and myself right from watching the race live on TV saw Schumacher well ahead of Hill and Hill just not bothering with things like breaking and throw his car at the corner. Schumacher, on the normal racing line turned in at the normal racing turn-in point and was driven in to by and out-of-control Hill. And that was my view as someone with a general ABF (Anyone But Fiat) bias.

cb1965

3,043 posts

93 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
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Having travelled the world and been in the midst of F1 people from time to time I can tell you that Adelaide 1994 is viewed generally as a racing incident. Many believe that Schumacher simply wanted to get his car back on the track as would any F1 driver in his position. They also believe Hill was not as circumspect as he might have been by going for a now closing gap.

My belief is that it all happened so quickly (it was only a few seconds in the race) I can't see it as being as pre-meditated on Schumacher's behalf as many Brits with the benefits of years of hindsight would like to believe. I also think you cannot blame Hill for going for the gap...... remember that Damon had rather been thrust to the front of the team with very little experience. I personally put it down to a racing incident and anyway in my view the right man won the championship. Schumacher was excluded from 4 races for nonsense infringements (overtaking a car on the formation lap - WTF? and having a worn skid block which was clearly worn when the car went over the kerbs - you could see the ride height was correct).

Damon's drive in Japan that year was stunning though. He openly admits that he drove at a level that day that he never attained again. I like Damon Hill immensely, he is a gentleman and I think was very unfairly treated by Williams, but he is not one of the sport's greats like Schumacher.... something he has admitted himself since he stopped racing.

StevieBee

8,201 posts

203 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
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I have a slightly different view, partly corroborated through the reading of several accounts in a few books of people involved in both Benetton and Williams at the time and also looking objectively at the footage.

Schumacher damaged his car (steering I believe) when he went off. It would have been unlikely that he'd be able to complete the race; a fact he knew the moment he rejoined the track as you can clearly see him testing the steering.

He left a big enough gap for Hill thinking his steering was completely shot but as Hill went for it, he found his steering broken but not as much as he thought and went to close the gap and bang!

I'm not so sure that it was an deliberate, pre-mediated manoeuvre. More a case if "I've cocked up, how can I retain my advantage?" - rather like Nico Rosberg running down the escape road in qualifying at Monaco; the reason wasn't deliberate but the outcome was manipulated to maintain advantage.

Whether that's a mark of a champion's mindset or not is another argument.

For me; Hill was and remains the moral victor. There was too much of a cloud of doubt over Benetton that year with the suggestions of illegal traction control being used; something that as far as I'm aware has not been absolutely denied by anyone to this day.




Vocal Minority

8,582 posts

100 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
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cb1965 said:
. Schumacher was excluded from 4 races for nonsense infringements (overtaking a car on the formation lap - WTF? and having a worn skid block which was clearly worn when the car went over the kerbs - you could see the ride height was correct).

.
Possibly seen as pedantry but - He was excluded from the race for ignoring a penalty for over taking a car on the formation lap. Then he was banned for two races for ignoring the black flag he got because he ignored the penalty.

You are clearly pro-Schumacher - and that's fine. I am pro-Hill and agree with your sum up of the man. However, you surely have to admit that letting someone off for simply ignoring the rulings of the officials of the meeting sets a very poor precedent.....so hardly a nonsense.

They managed to turn a 5 second penalty into a 4 race ban effectively - through their own arrogance

Edited by Vocal Minority on Tuesday 21st August 11:38

REALIST123

12,356 posts

101 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
quotequote all
Vocal Minority said:
cb1965 said:
. Schumacher was excluded from 4 races for nonsense infringements (overtaking a car on the formation lap - WTF? and having a worn skid block which was clearly worn when the car went over the kerbs - you could see the ride height was correct).

.
Possibly seen as pedantry but - He was excluded from the race for ignoring a penalty for over taking a car on the formation lap. Then he was banned for two races for ignoring the black flag he got because he ignored the penalty.

You are clearly pro-Schumacher - and that's fine. I am pro-Hill and agree with your sum up of the man. However, you surely have to admit that letting someone off for simply ignoring the rulings of the officials of the meeting sets a very poor precedent.....so hardly a nonsense.

They managed to turn a 5 second penalty into a 4 race ban effectively - through their own arrogance

Edited by Vocal Minority on Tuesday 21st August 11:38
Question is whether a 4 race ban was appropriate. Many think not.

cb1965

3,043 posts

93 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
quotequote all
Vocal Minority said:
cb1965 said:
. Schumacher was excluded from 4 races for nonsense infringements (overtaking a car on the formation lap - WTF? and having a worn skid block which was clearly worn when the car went over the kerbs - you could see the ride height was correct).

.
Possibly seen as pedantry but - He was excluded from the race for ignoring a penalty for over taking a car on the formation lap. Then he was banned for two races for ignoring the black flag he got because he ignored the penalty.

You are clearly pro-Schumacher - and that's fine. I am pro-Hill and agree with your sum up of the man. However, you surely have to admit that letting someone off for simply ignoring the rulings of the officials of the meeting sets a very poor precedent.....so hardly a nonsense.
Been lucky enough to meet both of them and think they are both very interesting and likeable people so not really pro one or the other, but I do recognise Schumacher's talent as being greater than Hill's and I mean no disrespect to Damon in that statement.

The fact is the overtaking on the formation lap rule had never been invoked before or since (now abolished I believe). It was just petty and while Schumacher and the team should not have ignored the black flag they fully intended to appeal it hence decided to keep racing in order that Schuamcher could rightfully gain first place should the appeal have been upheld whereas he would have not been awarded any points if he had retired black flag or otherwise even if the appeal were upheld.

Let's be honest here, the FIA wanted Damon as WC due to Senna being a Williams driver at the time of his death and they did their best to make it happen

StevieBee

8,201 posts

203 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
quotequote all
REALIST123 said:
Vocal Minority said:
cb1965 said:
. Schumacher was excluded from 4 races for nonsense infringements (overtaking a car on the formation lap - WTF? and having a worn skid block which was clearly worn when the car went over the kerbs - you could see the ride height was correct).

.
Possibly seen as pedantry but - He was excluded from the race for ignoring a penalty for over taking a car on the formation lap. Then he was banned for two races for ignoring the black flag he got because he ignored the penalty.

You are clearly pro-Schumacher - and that's fine. I am pro-Hill and agree with your sum up of the man. However, you surely have to admit that letting someone off for simply ignoring the rulings of the officials of the meeting sets a very poor precedent.....so hardly a nonsense.

They managed to turn a 5 second penalty into a 4 race ban effectively - through their own arrogance

Edited by Vocal Minority on Tuesday 21st August 11:38
Question is whether a 4 race ban was appropriate. Many think not.
As I mentioned earlier, Benetton carried with them a high level of doubt as to the legality of their car that year. The trouble was that what was widely known and observed couldn't be proved. I suspect that the penalty for the formation lap infringement was a way to clip their wings in another way as looking at the incident in isolation, the sentence certainly doesn't match the crime.

Also worth remembering this was the year that Senna died. There were a great many in the F1 'establishment' including journalists that felt Hill stepped up his game admirably following this and that him winning the WDC would be deserved and just. The fact that he didn't in the circumstances that unfolded in Adelaide perhaps clouded the accounts given and the views that formed opinions at the time.


super7

624 posts

156 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
quotequote all
Damon Hill won the right to lead the field round on the warm up lap by the fact that he won Pole Position..... That right isn't just for the race start but also to determine how the field prepares for the Start, the first corner and the first lap. The rules set that priviledge!

Now, you can say that it's a trivial issue to ignore the pole guy and just drive past and do your own thing, but you haven't earned the right to do it, and effectively Schumacher took the advantage, and inflicted some pyschological damage by setting the pace. That's why he was penalised, but as he was arrogant enough to do that, he was also arrogant enough to ignore the black flag.

I'm sure if another driver had done that, they would also be jumped on.

Didn't he also have filter removed from the fuel rig to ensure his car filled faster than anyone elses....

Flawed in so many ways!!!

Mark-C

3,160 posts

153 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
quotequote all
cb1965 said:
Been lucky enough to meet both of them and think they are both very interesting and likeable people so not really pro one or the other, but I do recognise Schumacher's talent as being greater than Hill's and I mean no disrespect to Damon in that statement.

The fact is the overtaking on the formation lap rule had never been invoked before or since (now abolished I believe). It was just petty and while Schumacher and the team should not have ignored the black flag they fully intended to appeal it hence decided to keep racing in order that Schuamcher could rightfully gain first place should the appeal have been upheld whereas he would have not been awarded any points if he had retired black flag or otherwise even if the appeal were upheld.

Let's be honest here, the FIA wanted Damon as WC due to Senna being a Williams driver at the time of his death and they did their best to make it happen
Hartley and Perez given penalties for formation lap issues in Bahrain this year. Overtaking on the formation lap is definitely not permitted in the current regulations (unless unavoidable). Schumacher's overtaking Hill twice on the formation lap was petty. If Schumacher hadn't ignored the penalty they wouldn't have had the black flag and he probably would have got the points he needed to win the championship without what happened in Adelaide.

Schumacher was an amazingly talented driver but he didn't help himself sometimes.

Vaud

34,115 posts

103 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
quotequote all
super7 said:
Damon Hill won the right to lead the field round on the warm up lap by the fact that he won Pole Position..... That right isn't just for the race start but also to determine how the field prepares for the Start, the first corner and the first lap. The rules set that priviledge!

Now, you can say that it's a trivial issue to ignore the pole guy and just drive past and do your own thing, but you haven't earned the right to do it, and effectively Schumacher took the advantage, and inflicted some pyschological damage by setting the pace. That's why he was penalised, but as he was arrogant enough to do that, he was also arrogant enough to ignore the black flag.

I'm sure if another driver had done that, they would also be jumped on.

Didn't he also have filter removed from the fuel rig to ensure his car filled faster than anyone elses....

Flawed in so many ways!!!
It’s not thought that Schumacher knew anything about the fuel filter, that was just the teams actions. Anyway his team mate also benefited - well until the fire...

Sam993

1,302 posts

20 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
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You could argue that it was a racing incident and despite many Hill fans worldwide (the "our British Damon" thing is a bullste statement of a deluded old man) seeing it as deliberate there was no way to prove it. Until Jerez 1997. If anyone had any doubts they should have vanished by then. The guy is mentally unstable (as he had proven in subsequent years too) and should have been stripped of his 1994 title too.

Mark-C

3,160 posts

153 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
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Sam993 said:
You could argue that it was a racing incident and despite many Hill fans worldwide (the "our British Damon" thing is a bullste statement of a deluded old man) seeing it as deliberate there was no way to prove it. Until Jerez 1997. If anyone had any doubts they should have vanished by then. The guy is mentally unstable (as he had proven in subsequent years too) and should have been stripped of his 1994 title too.
Just so you know Sam - when I see your name next to a post I just don't bother reading it ...

cb1965

3,043 posts

93 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
quotequote all
Mark-C said:
Hartley and Perez given penalties for formation lap issues in Bahrain this year.
Not for overtaking though, one for failing to give the place back and the other for not starting from the pit lane.

Mark-C said:
Overtaking on the formation lap is definitely not permitted in the current regulations (unless unavoidable).
If one car goes slower than another then a certain amount of 'overtaking' is tolerated as long as the places is given back shortly thereafter... as it was at Silverstone in 1994. Trouble is the rule was a lot more definitive then (it said grid order must be maintained on the formation lap) and even though many brief overtakes were made on formation laps prior to that race with no penalties issued the authorities had the right to penalise anyone who did so... and they did in the case of Schumacher.

After that season the rule was relaxed to what we have today i.e the unavoidable clause added.

It also wasn't as simple as Schumacher being black flagged and ignoring it. He was initially given a 5 second stop-go penalty for the formation lap infringement, but with them being such a recent introduction Benetton mistakenly thought the time would be added to the overall race time and the way it was communicated was ambiguous anyway (in true FIA style). That was however only the case if the race was 12 or less laps from the end and it obviously wasn't. When Schumacher failed to server the stop go within 5 laps he was black flagged. His team told him to ignore it while they debated with race control and 2 laps later the flag was withdrawn and Schumacher served his stop go. He eventually finished second which the stewards allowed him to keep although he was fined $25K. However the FIA took a dim view of the whole incident and suspended the clerk of the course as well as upholding the disqualification and banning him for a further two races.

Sam993

1,302 posts

20 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
quotequote all
Mark-C said:
Sam993 said:
You could argue that it was a racing incident and despite many Hill fans worldwide (the "our British Damon" thing is a bullste statement of a deluded old man) seeing it as deliberate there was no way to prove it. Until Jerez 1997. If anyone had any doubts they should have vanished by then. The guy is mentally unstable (as he had proven in subsequent years too) and should have been stripped of his 1994 title too.
Just so you know Sam - when I see your name next to a post I just don't bother reading it ...
I see... But, since you bothered to read the above, which bit exactly do you disagree with/find factually incorrect?

Or are you just upset about the "(the "our British Damon" thing is a bullste statement of a deluded old man)"?

Mark-C

3,160 posts

153 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
quotequote all
Sam993 said:
Mark-C said:
Sam993 said:
You could argue that it was a racing incident and despite many Hill fans worldwide (the "our British Damon" thing is a bullste statement of a deluded old man) seeing it as deliberate there was no way to prove it. Until Jerez 1997. If anyone had any doubts they should have vanished by then. The guy is mentally unstable (as he had proven in subsequent years too) and should have been stripped of his 1994 title too.
Just so you know Sam - when I see your name next to a post I just don't bother reading it ...
I see... But, since you bothered to read the above, which bit exactly do you disagree with/find factually incorrect?

Or are you just upset about the "(the "our British Damon" thing is a bullste statement of a deluded old man)"?
I've now gone back and read the post. I don't always disagree with what you say (and said as much on the topic of Indy) but I find your approach to putting your point over incredibly childish and your use of words deliberately provocative.

None of the words upset me at all - it's just that your posts are an example of everything that makes discussion on the internet tedious for people that want to have a discussion.

Mark-C

3,160 posts

153 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
quotequote all
cb1965 said:
Mark-C said:
Hartley and Perez given penalties for formation lap issues in Bahrain this year.
Not for overtaking though, one for failing to give the place back and the other for not starting from the pit lane.

Mark-C said:
Overtaking on the formation lap is definitely not permitted in the current regulations (unless unavoidable).
If one car goes slower than another then a certain amount of 'overtaking' is tolerated as long as the places is given back shortly thereafter... as it was at Silverstone in 1994. Trouble is the rule was a lot more definitive then (it said grid order must be maintained on the formation lap) and even though many brief overtakes were made on formation laps prior to that race with no penalties issued the authorities had the right to penalise anyone who did so... and they did in the case of Schumacher.

After that season the rule was relaxed to what we have today i.e the unavoidable clause added.

It also wasn't as simple as Schumacher being black flagged and ignoring it. He was initially given a 5 second stop-go penalty for the formation lap infringement, but with them being such a recent introduction Benetton mistakenly thought the time would be added to the overall race time and the way it was communicated was ambiguous anyway (in true FIA style). That was however only the case if the race was 12 or less laps from the end and it obviously wasn't. When Schumacher failed to server the stop go within 5 laps he was black flagged. His team told him to ignore it while they debated with race control and 2 laps later the flag was withdrawn and Schumacher served his stop go. He eventually finished second which the stewards allowed him to keep although he was fined $25K. However the FIA took a dim view of the whole incident and suspended the clerk of the course as well as upholding the disqualification and banning him for a further two races.
First point about the Hartley and Perez penalties is fair enough (I thought one was for overtaking) but the second annoys me as someone who used to marshall - the flags are there to be obeyed. I think I'd proper have a much more grumpy view about the 94 season if Damon hadn't have won the 96 title!


FourWheelDrift

78,661 posts

232 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
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Old thread about the Schumacher 1994 traction control - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

Sam993

1,302 posts

20 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
quotequote all
Mark-C said:
Sam993 said:
Mark-C said:
Sam993 said:
You could argue that it was a racing incident and despite many Hill fans worldwide (the "our British Damon" thing is a bullste statement of a deluded old man) seeing it as deliberate there was no way to prove it. Until Jerez 1997. If anyone had any doubts they should have vanished by then. The guy is mentally unstable (as he had proven in subsequent years too) and should have been stripped of his 1994 title too.
Just so you know Sam - when I see your name next to a post I just don't bother reading it ...
I see... But, since you bothered to read the above, which bit exactly do you disagree with/find factually incorrect?

Or are you just upset about the "(the "our British Damon" thing is a bullste statement of a deluded old man)"?
I've now gone back and read the post. I don't always disagree with what you say (and said as much on the topic of Indy) but I find your approach to putting your point over incredibly childish and your use of words deliberately provocative.

None of the words upset me at all - it's just that your posts are an example of everything that makes discussion on the internet tedious for people that want to have a discussion.
True, my posts can come across like that but they only are like that when I respond to internet bullies who need to be put in their place or smart asses who can't tell the difference between facts and opinions and challenge you thinking that their opinions are facts - like our friend cb1965 did in the JV thread by assuming that I must be one of the "our Damon" types and that everyone else knows that Schumacher wasn't at fault (I don't know anyone who would have thought that actually).