The Michael Schumacher Debate Thread

[JNW1]

entropy said:

As tame as it looks by today's standards Prost wasn't best pleased by it and still isn't. Post-race he said: "If he wants to win the championship that badly then he can have it".

Senna retorted that he didn't like Prost squeezing him to the edge of the track. https://youtu.be/pFUumlvlxD0?t=2023 Not that I condone what he did but again its tame by today's standards and today we know that Senna takes things personally.

Agree with that but the question wasn't whether Prost was happy about Senna's move (we know he wasn't), the point being debated was whether the move was just as bad as what Schumacher did to Barrichello at Hungary in 2010. Even allowing for different times, different levels of safety, etc, I'd say it's pretty clear that Schumacher's squeeze on Rubens was worse; the wheels of the two cars over-lapping at one stage and Barrichello was forced much closer to the wall than Prost was at Estoril.

Now that doesn't mean I'm condoning Senna's move back in 1988 (I'm not) but to suggest Schumacher's in 2010 was no worse just flies in the face of the evidence IMO.

[JNW1]

sparta6 said:

angrymoby said:

he had massive tt tendacies as a DRIVER ...

In your opinion.

Other opinions are available from all good retail outlets

Do these outlets also sell books saying the earth's flat? Schumacher was a brilliant driver but to suggest he didn't cross the line between right and wrong on numerous occasions is just rewriting history. Like Senna, much of this over-aggressive driving was all the more depressing given that with his ability it shouldn't have been necessary.

[JNW1]

Gaz. said:

JNW1 said:

The first clip is Senna squeezing Prost towards the pit wall at Estoril; were you expecting to see something different?!!

To be fair it probably looks quite mild compared to some of the driving we've seen subsequently but swerving at people when they were trying to overtake wasn't the done thing back in the 1980's; remember cars and circuits were much less safe then!

Well yes, to be honest, I've seen it before but didn't realise that it was 'that squeeze' that I'd already seen that so many of gone on about, I expected something much, much worse, similar to Hungary 2010 or Baku 2018. Senna's LH tyres are barely over the centre line of the track. They'd been swerving for years, hence Mansell's dummy on Piquet the year before at Silverstone, if drivers weren't blocking then he wouldn't need to have thrown a dummy.

I'd say there's a difference between moving across to take a defensive line in order to block an anticipated overtake - which is legal and what Piquet did at Silverstone in 1987 - and continuing to move across on someone when they're part-way alongside and have nowhere to go other than a wall on the outside!

I'm not sure if and when the rules changed but as they stand at the moment I think you're allowed to move to defend your position but not by so much that you deliberately run another driver off the track; in that context I suspect a move like Schumacher's on Barrichello would almost certainly attract a penalty if it happened today whereas something similar to Senna on Prost at Estoril probably wouldn't.

[anonymous-user]

JNW1 said:

cb1965 said:

angrymoby said:

cb1965 said:

As were the cars, but people like angrymoby can't get their heads round that, too busy getting their rulers out and trying to be smart.... ironic really!

deflection, whataboutery AND ad hominem ...congratulations

little challenge for you cb, try defending this, without resorting to any of the above...



good luck

Why do you think I need to defend anything to do with Schumacher? We were talking about Senna. You are an oddball.

A few posts back you said Senna pushing Prost towards the pit wall at Estoril was "certainly as bad" as what Schumacher did to Barrichello in Hungary; however, I think most would agree the videos suggest otherwise (as indeed does the picture above). Seems to me there's quite a difference between the two with what Schumacher did being notably worse; to argue they're the same is to argue black is white IMO.

You're not factoring in the safety of the cars and tracks etc. Please try and understand there is more to this than just comparing pictures. I know angrymuppet can't get his head around it, but you can't be like him too surely?

[anonymous-user]

angrymoby said:

cb1965 said:

No you're hard work because you seem unable to accept others can think differently to you. I also have a pretty negative opinion of people who use terms like massive tt to describe sports stars and the likes .... it's not like most have any real knowledge of the person other than your exposure to them via TV etc. and the musings of the press of course. Fine to criticise their failings if you wish, but flat out insulting them seems childish .. again I'm being polite.

again, you seem unable to separate the driver, from the man

he had massive tw4t tendacies as a DRIVER ...his tw4ttishness is there for all to see ON TRACK with THEIR OWN EYES & yet you seem to be either ignoring it, defending it or deflecting away from it

I care not that you're offended/ or offended on someone else's behalf & care even less about your politeness tbh ...but your continued deflection is noted]

For the love of God it's not deflection, I just don't agree with you. I saw Senna's whole F1 career with my own eyes and he's probably the best I've ever seen. So yes I saw it with my own eyes ... he was a brilliant driver prone to the odd bout of going OTT but to be fair often with provocation. You just can't help but focus only on the negative, probably a good indication of your character to be frank.

[JNW1]

cb1965 said:

JNW1 said:

cb1965 said:

angrymoby said:

cb1965 said:

As were the cars, but people like angrymoby can't get their heads round that, too busy getting their rulers out and trying to be smart.... ironic really!

deflection, whataboutery AND ad hominem ...congratulations

little challenge for you cb, try defending this, without resorting to any of the above...



good luck

Why do you think I need to defend anything to do with Schumacher? We were talking about Senna. You are an oddball.

A few posts back you said Senna pushing Prost towards the pit wall at Estoril was "certainly as bad" as what Schumacher did to Barrichello in Hungary; however, I think most would agree the videos suggest otherwise (as indeed does the picture above). Seems to me there's quite a difference between the two with what Schumacher did being notably worse; to argue they're the same is to argue black is white IMO.

You're not factoring in the safety of the cars and tracks etc. Please try and understand there is more to this than just comparing pictures. I know angrymuppet can't get his head around it, but you can't be like him too surely?

The videos and pictures don't lie and show quite clearly that Schumacher's move on Barrichello was quite different from Senna's on Prost (with the former being much worse than the latter in the eyes of many). Your argument appears to be that enhancements in car and track safety mean that in reality there's no real difference between the two but if that is indeed your position I don't agree; IMO one was close to causing a potentially very nasty accident, the other wasn't.

[paua]

On a similar theme, but not F1, the Moto-2 rider Fenati, who applied a rival's brakes has been fired. Really underhand behaviour that could easily have ended badly.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9B1Vx_DrHQ

[glazbagun]

paua said:

On a similar theme, but not F1, the Moto-2 rider Fenati, who applied a rival's brakes has been fired. Really underhand behaviour that could easily have ended badly.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9B1Vx_DrHQ

Saw that, unbelievable. Like bike racing isn't dangerous enough as is.

[anonymous-user]

JNW1 said:

but if that is indeed your position I don't agree;

No worries, you don't have to.

[angrymoby]

cb1965 said:

angrymoby said:

cb1965 said:

No you're hard work because you seem unable to accept others can think differently to you. I also have a pretty negative opinion of people who use terms like massive tt to describe sports stars and the likes .... it's not like most have any real knowledge of the person other than your exposure to them via TV etc. and the musings of the press of course. Fine to criticise their failings if you wish, but flat out insulting them seems childish .. again I'm being polite.

again, you seem unable to separate the driver, from the man

he had massive tw4t tendacies as a DRIVER ...his tw4ttishness is there for all to see ON TRACK with THEIR OWN EYES & yet you seem to be either ignoring it, defending it or deflecting away from it

I care not that you're offended/ or offended on someone else's behalf & care even less about your politeness tbh ...but your continued deflection is noted]

For the love of God it's not deflection, I just don't agree with you. I saw Senna's whole F1 career with my own eyes and he's probably the best I've ever seen. So yes I saw it with my own eyes ... he was a brilliant driver prone to the odd bout of going OTT but to be fair often with provocation. You just can't help but focus only on the negative, probably a good indication of your character to be frank.

you obviously don't know what deflection is ...going off on random tangents, IS DEFLECTION

you also didn't realise that comment was about Michael (which should be obvious when we're in the 'The Michael Schumacher Debate Thread')

I'm also not soley focusing on Michael's negatives (go back through the thread) ...it's just that Michael seems to have more than most & larger ones, hence IMO (i seem to have to add this for you, as you don't seem to have grasped that posts on tinterweb threads are generally just opinions) he's a great, just not in MY top 5 of greats.

you seem to have taken great umbrage at me for pointing out that i didn't think '94 was an accident (hardly a controversial view)

& pointing out that Estoril was demonstrably 'not as bad'

If you don't take into account any negatives or accept negative comments towards your 'greats'- that's errrr great ...crack on & good for you!

talking of negative comments...

cb1965 said:

trying to be smart.... ironic really!

cb1965 said:

You are an oddball

cb1965 said:

seems childish .. again I'm being polite

cb1965 said:

angrymuppet

& also, my personal favourite quote...

cb1965 said:

so let's leave it there.

Edited by angrymoby on Tuesday 11th September 10:41

[chunder27]

moby and the other guy.

IN plenty of other places this thread would have been closed because of you two. This is a personal vendetta almost.

I agree with you actually.

The man was overly aggressive, utterly ruthless and so single minded he did not care about the consequences. The move on Rubens, please consider a former team-mate, and someone he no doubt knew well and this family, and someone who did him plenty of favours while racing.

And he drives him almost into the pitwall, a less experienced man might have panicked even more, but to his credit Rubens handled it well.

A less laconic person might have sought him out and walloped him later on.

Schuey knew this, which is why he did it, he KNEW Rubens would not react. He is a calculating, ruthless customer, as was Ferrari at the time and I am sure he knew exactly what was going on in 94 and in other teams when they were doing devious stuff.

It would not be in his character to not know

[anonymous-user]

angrymoby said:

cb1965 said:

angrymoby said:

cb1965 said:

No you're hard work because you seem unable to accept others can think differently to you. I also have a pretty negative opinion of people who use terms like massive tt to describe sports stars and the likes .... it's not like most have any real knowledge of the person other than your exposure to them via TV etc. and the musings of the press of course. Fine to criticise their failings if you wish, but flat out insulting them seems childish .. again I'm being polite.

again, you seem unable to separate the driver, from the man

he had massive tw4t tendacies as a DRIVER ...his tw4ttishness is there for all to see ON TRACK with THEIR OWN EYES & yet you seem to be either ignoring it, defending it or deflecting away from it

I care not that you're offended/ or offended on someone else's behalf & care even less about your politeness tbh ...but your continued deflection is noted]

For the love of God it's not deflection, I just don't agree with you. I saw Senna's whole F1 career with my own eyes and he's probably the best I've ever seen. So yes I saw it with my own eyes ... he was a brilliant driver prone to the odd bout of going OTT but to be fair often with provocation. You just can't help but focus only on the negative, probably a good indication of your character to be frank.

you obviously don't know what deflection is ...going off on random tangents, IS DEFLECTION

you also didn't realise that comment was about Michael (which should be obvious when we're in the 'The Michael Schumacher Debate Thread')

I'm also not soley focusing on Michael's negatives (go back through the thread) ...it's just that Michael seems to have more than most & larger ones, hence IMO (i seem to have to add this for you, as you don't seem to have grasped that posts on tinterweb threads are generally just opinions) he's a great, just not in MY top 5 of greats.

you seem to have taken great umbrage at me for pointing out that i didn't think '94 was an accident (hardly a controversial view)

& pointing out that Estoril was demonstrably 'not as bad'

If you don't take into account any negatives or accept negative comments towards your 'greats'- that's errrr great ...crack on & good for you!

talking of negative comments...

cb1965 said:

trying to be smart.... ironic really!

cb1965 said:

You are an oddball

cb1965 said:

seems childish .. again I'm being polite

cb1965 said:

angrymuppet

& also, my personal favourite quote...

cb1965 said:

so let's leave it there.

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 11th September 10:41

So why can’t you? You just seem to be one of those types who can’t accept other people might think differently to you and have to have the last word. There is so much wrong in your assumptions above that it’s laughable but let’s just call it quits. I’m unlikely to change my fairly educated opinion on the back of anything you conjure up and I suspect the situation is reciprocated so it’s pointless to persist.

[anonymous-user]

For anyone a bit more balanced on the thread (and who likes to read rather than write ) and who might be interested in the more positive aspects of Schumacher’s career there is a book about him building Team Schumacher. It’s an interesting inside to how the team worked and how involved Schumacher was.

[JNW1]

chunder27 said:

moby and the other guy.

IN plenty of other places this thread would have been closed because of you two. This is a personal vendetta almost.

I agree with you actually.

The man was overly aggressive, utterly ruthless and so single minded he did not care about the consequences. The move on Rubens, please consider a former team-mate, and someone he no doubt knew well and this family, and someone who did him plenty of favours while racing.

And he drives him almost into the pitwall, a less experienced man might have panicked even more, but to his credit Rubens handled it well.

A less laconic person might have sought him out and walloped him later on.

Schuey knew this, which is why he did it, he KNEW Rubens would not react. He is a calculating, ruthless customer, as was Ferrari at the time and I am sure he knew exactly what was going on in 94 and in other teams when they were doing devious stuff.

It would not be in his character to not know

I'm not sure if I'm the "other guy" you mean but from my perspective it's certainly not a personal vendetta, it's just an expression of my opinion about Schumacher's driving.

In fairness everything I've seen and read about him suggests he was always a loyal family man and a nice bloke out of the car and I was always interested in his opinions and what he had to say on things relating to F1. I've already said I wouldn't have wished on him and his family the awful predicament in which he finds himself and am happy to reiterate that again.

I've also gone on record as saying he was a brilliant driver who, like Senna, had the ability to make everyone else look very ordinary by comparison (witness Barcelona 1996). However, in my opinion he also did things on the track which went beyond the line of aggressive driving and strayed into the territory of unsportsmanlike and at times downright dirty driving (again a trait shared with Senna IMO). If you think voicing that opinion constitutes a personal vendetta we'll have to agree to differ; my comments certainly aren't meant that way and if you read everything I've said you'll see my sentiment is more one of sadness that drivers of Schumacher's and Senna's abilities at times resorted to the tactics they did - both were too good to need to drive that way in my view.

[angrymoby]

chunder27 said:

moby and the other guy.

IN plenty of other places this thread would have been closed because of you two. This is a personal vendetta almost.

aplologies if it comes across that way, it's probably more to do with beligerance on my part & intolerance (personal faults i readily acknowledge )

it's just very hard not to bite (i'm fairly sure a better person wouldn't ) when you're dealing with someone dripping with so much hyprocrisy ...such as labelling someone childish for insulting another party they seem to hold dear ...then use childish insults themselves.

or claim that their opinion should be listened to, yet tells others to take their opinions elsewhere (rude enough, but they aren't even the OP!)

or says 'lets leave it there'...yet apparently can't themselves (if i said 'lets leave it there' (ignoring the fact i'm now expecting someone else to do as i say, which is frankly arrogant & f'ck'ing rude tbh) ...then i do indeed 'leave it there' & i don't reply, even if they do)

or label someone as 'having to have the last word' ...by then having the last word

& then putting the hypocrisy & arrogance to one side, you have them posting gems like this...

cb1965 said:

unlikely to change my fairly educated opinion

i mean, really? what kind of t1t posts stuff like that & then expects to be taken seriously?

...because in my experience, people who make these sorts of claims are usually the least qualified to accredit it to themselves

cb1965 said:

For anyone a bit more balanced on the thread (and who likes to read rather than write ) and who might be interested in the more positive aspects of Schumacher’s career there is a book about him building Team Schumacher. It’s an interesting inside to how the team worked and how involved Schumacher was.

on a conciliatory note (& ignoring yet more digs) ill add it to my xmas list

Edited by angrymoby on Wednesday 12th September 15:37

[TobyTR]

greatest in-lap ever: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V971JZ9iXbk

[glazbagun]

TobyTR said:

greatest in-lap ever: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V971JZ9iXbk

The smartest in lap ever. Don't know if it was his doing or Brawn, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxVyQsk8ysU

[anonymous-user]

angrymoby said:

i mean, really? what kind of t1t posts stuff like that

angrymoby said:

on a conciliatory note

The irony

[Mr Tidy]

cb1965 said:

For anyone a bit more balanced on the thread (and who likes to read rather than write ) and who might be interested in the more positive aspects of Schumacher’s career there is a book about him building Team Schumacher. It’s an interesting inside to how the team worked and how involved Schumacher was.

I've not read it, but latterly what could he teach anyone apart from how to take a rival out and pretend it wasn't your fault?

I liked him to begin with, but he just got so cocky I ended up wanting him to get beaten - I didn't care who did it!

Obviously I'm not a fan, but it's so sad seeing him in his current situation.

[angrymoby]

DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.

what about 92 & 93? ...i doubt anyone would say those cars weren't demanding to drive & also don't forget Michael re-wrote the book on driver fitness

no, Michael's problem was as above, a lack of testing & possibly a more serious concussion than everyone thought in 2009 & a very very good team mate