The Michael Schumacher Debate Thread
Discussion
Simply, for me he's the best F1 driver ever.
Supreme talent both in an out of the car. If you can drive and play the system, then you'll always come out top.
Lewis has a team built around him, Seb too. Even Max at RB. Michael started that ethos.
Sadly F1 is a circus and not all about driver talent. But that's another subject and not for here.
Supreme talent both in an out of the car. If you can drive and play the system, then you'll always come out top.
Lewis has a team built around him, Seb too. Even Max at RB. Michael started that ethos.
Sadly F1 is a circus and not all about driver talent. But that's another subject and not for here.
cb1965 said:
I don't expect you to see it any way other than the way you want to, but no matter as the best driver won the championship at the end of the day so all's well that ends well. Also if you want to persist with whinging about Adelaide 1994 can you do it on the dedicated thread as this thread is about Schumacher's entire career not that 5 seconds of it. Thanks.
He was easily the best driver ...& that's what makes it worse- he just didn't need to do it& if you'd noticed, i also mentioned his other subsequent antics too, not just Adelaide ...which do not exactly exonerate him do they?
& if you want to do a 'i love Micheal Schumacher' page without any negative comments, maybe do it on your own website ...not on a forum that allows other opposing opinions. Thanks.
Was never a fan of Schumacher or Ferrari, but despite the shenanigans, I consider him a great.
Of all the driving antics, this is still the most tough for me to digest:
The stuff about tyres and car suiting him is a moot point, IMO. Brawn brought the same strategies they had been employing with Schumacher at Benetton to Ferrari, refining it year on year to become a juggernaut in the early noughties. Short, fast stints and the tyres could take it, and looking back on those races it is incredible how Schumacher was able to make those "impossible" strategies work with his skill and raw pace.
It is also funny how the opponents kept falling for the same trick again and again. Williams in '94 (infamously at Imola) and McLaren in the late 90s.
The most amazing example of the above is the '98 Hungarian GP. Brundle: "Schumacher is 3 seconds faster than the McLaren, what on earth is going on?!" The rear of the Ferrari bouncing around in some of the corners...what a sight!
What I appreciate (now) about those times were that they were an awesome demonstration of sheer speed, even though it was tiring that one guy took all the titles for 5 years in a row, however deserved they may have been.
Of all the driving antics, this is still the most tough for me to digest:
The stuff about tyres and car suiting him is a moot point, IMO. Brawn brought the same strategies they had been employing with Schumacher at Benetton to Ferrari, refining it year on year to become a juggernaut in the early noughties. Short, fast stints and the tyres could take it, and looking back on those races it is incredible how Schumacher was able to make those "impossible" strategies work with his skill and raw pace.
It is also funny how the opponents kept falling for the same trick again and again. Williams in '94 (infamously at Imola) and McLaren in the late 90s.
The most amazing example of the above is the '98 Hungarian GP. Brundle: "Schumacher is 3 seconds faster than the McLaren, what on earth is going on?!" The rear of the Ferrari bouncing around in some of the corners...what a sight!
What I appreciate (now) about those times were that they were an awesome demonstration of sheer speed, even though it was tiring that one guy took all the titles for 5 years in a row, however deserved they may have been.
TobyTR said:
Anyone who compares his time at Mercedes with Nico R needs their head examined - he was 40-43 years old then and well past it. But even being well over-the-hill and a few tenths slower than his prime, he still managed to set the quickest time in 2012 Monaco qualifying...
How can he not be in anyone's all time top-five?
Well it's quite hard to compare him to any other decent team mate, because...How can he not be in anyone's all time top-five?
Brundle
Patrese
Verstappen
Lehto
Herbert
Irvine
Barrichello
Massa
At least Nico went on to be a WDC & earn his reputation of being more than a decent pedaller
as for Top 5, lest we not forget
Ascari
Fangio
Clark
Stewart
Lauda
Prost
Senna
the last 3 either had each other or other WDC'ers as team mates, so i'd have all 3 above him ... i'd then have to choose the next 2 from Clark, Fangio & Michael ...pretty sure the other 2 didn't deliberately punt off competitors not once but TWICE for a WDC so both would be in my 5, Michael 6th ...as being a 'great' to me, means more than just stats, but about how you go about your winning & also about how you conduct yourself when you're losing/ you lose
I say i'd put him at 6th ...but that also discounts the 3 current WDC'ers & i reckon at least one of those will punt him down to 7th when they retire
It's worth remembering this as well as I think it provides an outlook into why he was the way he was.
https://www.grandprix247.com/2017/12/06/todt-schum...
He wasn't just fighting Ayrton or Damon or Mika or whoever, he was fighting himself.
Anxiety is a b
d and narcissism will do you in too (Look at Donald Trump) and it'll turn you into a paranoid mess if you let it. Looks and sounds like Michael had it in spades and that constant need to reassure himself that he was the best could manifest itself in particularly bad behaviour if someone dared to beat him, much like Senna.
Amateur psychologist comments for sure but it's there in writing and in speech from someone who knew him as well as anyone in F1. If he's just won his third WDC and he's doubting whether he's still quick enough imagine the lengths he'd go if that gripped him enough? Crashing into people as they attempted to pass him and win the title, making sure he didn't have a teammate that challenged him at all, etc all seems normal for that type of mindset when you think about it.
1994 he doubted he was as quick as Senna but once Senna was gone he knew Damon wasn't as good and yet Damon nearly beat him (yeah, with all the permutations of how that happened) and he wouldn't have been able to believe it had he lost the title. 1997 is a bit different but it's the same reflex after leading the race and then the Williams pair caught up and perhaps he didn't believe Jacques was on the same level either. It's interesting that he rarely if ever (honestly can't remember) tried any shady business with Hakkinen and he's often spoke of how he cherishes his fights with Mika as the best because he respected him and his talent hugely.
https://www.grandprix247.com/2017/12/06/todt-schum...
He wasn't just fighting Ayrton or Damon or Mika or whoever, he was fighting himself.
Anxiety is a b
d and narcissism will do you in too (Look at Donald Trump) and it'll turn you into a paranoid mess if you let it. Looks and sounds like Michael had it in spades and that constant need to reassure himself that he was the best could manifest itself in particularly bad behaviour if someone dared to beat him, much like Senna.Amateur psychologist comments for sure but it's there in writing and in speech from someone who knew him as well as anyone in F1. If he's just won his third WDC and he's doubting whether he's still quick enough imagine the lengths he'd go if that gripped him enough? Crashing into people as they attempted to pass him and win the title, making sure he didn't have a teammate that challenged him at all, etc all seems normal for that type of mindset when you think about it.
1994 he doubted he was as quick as Senna but once Senna was gone he knew Damon wasn't as good and yet Damon nearly beat him (yeah, with all the permutations of how that happened) and he wouldn't have been able to believe it had he lost the title. 1997 is a bit different but it's the same reflex after leading the race and then the Williams pair caught up and perhaps he didn't believe Jacques was on the same level either. It's interesting that he rarely if ever (honestly can't remember) tried any shady business with Hakkinen and he's often spoke of how he cherishes his fights with Mika as the best because he respected him and his talent hugely.
Edited by F1GTRUeno on Friday 24th August 15:55
Dr Z said:
Was never a fan of Schumacher or Ferrari, but despite the shenanigans, I consider him a great.
Of all the driving antics, this is still the most tough for me to digest:
Yeah as I said in the "Our Damon" threadOf all the driving antics, this is still the most tough for me to digest:
Sam993 said:
I think that he was a bit of a 
maybe even borderline psycho (almost running Rubens into a wall at Hungaroring was clearly an indication of that).
That was disgusting. One of the signature moves of his. Let's not forget what he did to Hamilton in Spain as a payback for allegedly getting blocked. It's a sort of driving that I'd expect to see on Russian dashcam videos not from someone who holds an F1 license FFS. maybe even borderline psycho (almost running Rubens into a wall at Hungaroring was clearly an indication of that).Vettel displays similar traits BTW (e.g. Baku last year). They must be adding something to water in Germany.
EDIT: you can actually see him looking at Rubens. That is a psycho move 100%
Edited by Sam993 on Friday 24th August 18:20
Sam993 said:
Dr Z said:
Was never a fan of Schumacher or Ferrari, but despite the shenanigans, I consider him a great.
Of all the driving antics, this is still the most tough for me to digest:
Yeah as I said in the "Our Damon" threadOf all the driving antics, this is still the most tough for me to digest:
Sam993 said:
I think that he was a bit of a maybe even borderline psycho (almost running Rubens into a wall at Hungaroring was clearly an indication of that).
That was disgusting. One of the signature moves of his. Let's not forget what he did to Hamilton in Spain as a payback for allegedly getting blocked. It's a sort of driving that I'd expect to see on Russian dashcam videos not from someone who holds an F1 license FFS. maybe even borderline psycho (almost running Rubens into a wall at Hungaroring was clearly an indication of that).Vettel displays similar traits BTW (e.g. Baku last year). They must be adding something to water in Germany.
EDIT: you can actually see him looking at Rubens. That is a psycho move 100%
Edited by Sam993 on Friday 24th August 18:20
I'm one who doesn't much care for that ugly narcissistic streak so often prevalent in our sports top achievers, it's a personal thing I guess, maybe they're like politicians and you just have to pick the one who seems least-worst. Or waste your vote on the nice guy. I've just had a mini revelation about why people support teams so much instead of drivers.
Some of us have seen the effects quite remarkably in rosberg recently - the length he had to go to to beat Hamilton made him a very ugly person, someone I loathed and ridiculed and revelled in the idea of his failure. But since realising what competing at this level was doing to him and walking away we now see a happy rosberg who's regained his "aura".
One thing that makes me laugh though, now I never liked Schumacher, which wasn't hard being a kid and him being the villain of the hour - while cheating and lackey teamates might compromise his records in the eyes and hearts of many, he was still the most capable and complete of an era and on his day unstoppable, a huge talent, totally dedicated to a degree many feel not seen since, utterly ruthless b@stard that would stop at nothing to achieve his goal - that people are still squabbling trying to defend his honour over Adelaide94. Then I believed he doofed damon out simply cos it suited my tribal; today I can sagely re evaluate, and it's because of the respect I'm forced to allocate to him that rules against it being just an accident.
I watched almost every race of Schumacher’s F1 career, and in my view it was his professionalism which set him apart from his peers.
Before Schumacher, Grand Prix drivers were seen as daredevils, playboys or both. Michael was neither. He was, first and foremost, a professional athlete. He set new standards of fitness, preparation, and commitment to motorsport. He worked harder and longer than anyone else : in the gym, at the test track and with his engineers. He was the first driver capable of driving every corner of every lap of every race flat out, no matter how hot and humid conditions were.
Before Schumacher, Grand Prix drivers were seen as daredevils, playboys or both. Michael was neither. He was, first and foremost, a professional athlete. He set new standards of fitness, preparation, and commitment to motorsport. He worked harder and longer than anyone else : in the gym, at the test track and with his engineers. He was the first driver capable of driving every corner of every lap of every race flat out, no matter how hot and humid conditions were.
In any list I have made about F1 legends.
Two men are far further down than most fanboys can stand. Senna and Schumacher.
I put them behind plenty, Stewart, Clark, Prost, Lauda, Piquet, Fangio, G Hill, Ascari, Brabham.
Why? Because they were dirty, ruthless, would stop at nothing to win, including endangering other drivers lives.
If you value those things, these two will NEVER be at the top of your lists compared to a Clark, Prost or Stewart.
If you don't value fellow men, then do as you will.
my lasting memory of Schumacher is not his speed, fitness, mercurial ability. It is putting his old team-mate (who did him countless favours for years) Rubens into the pitwall in a Mercedes as a sad old man trying to be tough well past his prime.
Two men are far further down than most fanboys can stand. Senna and Schumacher.
I put them behind plenty, Stewart, Clark, Prost, Lauda, Piquet, Fangio, G Hill, Ascari, Brabham.
Why? Because they were dirty, ruthless, would stop at nothing to win, including endangering other drivers lives.
If you value those things, these two will NEVER be at the top of your lists compared to a Clark, Prost or Stewart.
If you don't value fellow men, then do as you will.
my lasting memory of Schumacher is not his speed, fitness, mercurial ability. It is putting his old team-mate (who did him countless favours for years) Rubens into the pitwall in a Mercedes as a sad old man trying to be tough well past his prime.
angrymoby said:
TobyTR said:
Anyone who compares his time at Mercedes with Nico R needs their head examined - he was 40-43 years old then and well past it. But even being well over-the-hill and a few tenths slower than his prime, he still managed to set the quickest time in 2012 Monaco qualifying...
How can he not be in anyone's all time top-five?
Well it's quite hard to compare him to any other decent team mate, because...How can he not be in anyone's all time top-five?
Brundle
Patrese
Verstappen
Lehto
Herbert
Irvine
Barrichello
Massa
At least Nico went on to be a WDC & earn his reputation of being more than a decent pedaller
as for Top 5, lest we not forget
Ascari
Fangio
Clark
Stewart
Lauda
Prost
Senna
the last 3 either had each other or other WDC'ers as team mates, so i'd have all 3 above him ... i'd then have to choose the next 2 from Clark, Fangio & Michael ...pretty sure the other 2 didn't deliberately punt off competitors not once but TWICE for a WDC so both would be in my 5, Michael 6th ...as being a 'great' to me, means more than just stats, but about how you go about your winning & also about how you conduct yourself when you're losing/ you lose
I say i'd put him at 6th ...but that also discounts the 3 current WDC'ers & i reckon at least one of those will punt him down to 7th when they retire
When another 40-43 year old multiple ex world champion returns to F1 and still remains highly competitive then I'll change my mind, but until then M.Schumacher is the only one to pull that off.
Edited by TobyTR on Saturday 25th August 11:24
angrymoby said:
fantastic driver, should be defacto greatest in everyone's top 5, that he isn't says it all
minus points...
crossed over the sportsmanship line far too often & anyone who thinks '94 Adelaide was a racing incident needs to give their head a wobble
'97 blatant
'06 blatant
'10 blatant
lucky that the 2 most gifted competitors he ever faced either died (Senna) or nearly died (Mika Häkkinen, who was never the same driver again post '95 ...even as a subsequent x2 WDC)
Had Flavio's helping 'hand' at Benetton (convicted cheat)
Had Bernie's helping 'hand' like everyone else at Ferrari whilst under Bernie's watch (admitted to, by Bernie himself)
never had a decent team mate in his pomp to be compared against ...& Nico (who i rate highly) spanked him
thus, not even in my top 5
Completely agree. Very skilled indeed but some of his deliberate crashes into rivals to achieve a wdc should be seen as attempted murder. Not to mention all the Ferrari international assistance he benefitted from. Other drivers would have had longer bans or even license removal for such deliberate and dangerous crashes. minus points...
crossed over the sportsmanship line far too often & anyone who thinks '94 Adelaide was a racing incident needs to give their head a wobble
'97 blatant
'06 blatant
'10 blatant
lucky that the 2 most gifted competitors he ever faced either died (Senna) or nearly died (Mika Häkkinen, who was never the same driver again post '95 ...even as a subsequent x2 WDC)
Had Flavio's helping 'hand' at Benetton (convicted cheat)
Had Bernie's helping 'hand' like everyone else at Ferrari whilst under Bernie's watch (admitted to, by Bernie himself)
never had a decent team mate in his pomp to be compared against ...& Nico (who i rate highly) spanked him
thus, not even in my top 5
Not a good role model at all so not in my top 5 either. Maybe vettel learnt his “crashing into an opponent (Hamilton) on purpose” from Schumacher too. It ain’t alright doing stuff that could kill your competitors to win a wdc.
chunder27 said:
In any list I have made about F1 legends.
Two men are far further down than most fanboys can stand. Senna and Schumacher.
I put them behind plenty, Stewart, Clark, Prost, Lauda, Piquet, Fangio, G Hill, Ascari, Brabham.
Interestingly one could add Stirling Moss to that list of all time greats... He competed against Fangio for much of his career. Two men are far further down than most fanboys can stand. Senna and Schumacher.
I put them behind plenty, Stewart, Clark, Prost, Lauda, Piquet, Fangio, G Hill, Ascari, Brabham.
TobyTR said:
Herbert, Barrichello, Massa and Irvine were decent drivers and he destroyed them all
clearly your definition of 'decent' differs to mine, as not a single WDC between themTobyTR said:
I couldn't put any of the current WDC'ers into my top-5 because they've been categorically beaten by teammates in the past.
well, at least a few of them have raced against fellow WDC'ers (see Z's table about half way down)https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
TobyTR said:
Would a prime (not 43yo) M.Schumacher be beaten over an entire season by Rosberg, Button or Ricciardo in the same car? Not in my opinion.
i doubt he would have let them get a foot in the doorTobyTR said:
When another 40-43 year old multiple ex world champion returns to F1 and still remains highly competitive then I'll change my mind, but until then M.Schumacher is the only one to pull that off.
clearly your definition of 'highly competitive' differs to mine tooRichB said:
chunder27 said:
In any list I have made about F1 legends.
Two men are far further down than most fanboys can stand. Senna and Schumacher.
I put them behind plenty, Stewart, Clark, Prost, Lauda, Piquet, Fangio, G Hill, Ascari, Brabham.
Interestingly one could add Stirling Moss to that list of all time greats... He competed against Fangio for much of his career. Two men are far further down than most fanboys can stand. Senna and Schumacher.
I put them behind plenty, Stewart, Clark, Prost, Lauda, Piquet, Fangio, G Hill, Ascari, Brabham.
The Vambo said:
Honestly, that is a dhead argument.
Only one driver in the world per year can be decent?
It's not even in the 'hmmm
interesting point of view' bracket, it's just stupid.
first off, wind yer neck in.head argument. Only one driver in the world per year can be decent?
It's not even in the 'hmmm
interesting point of view' bracket, it's just stupid.majority/most F1 drivers don't win a WDC & in F1 terms are just 'average' ...so in my book anyone who does win a WDC is above average & thus 'decent' & actually has a trophy that proves it
mitigation is if you leave F1 earlier than you should e.g Gilles V
in my book multi WDCer's can be considered 'greats'
i can't help it if your standards are lower
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