The Michael Schumacher Debate Thread

[The Vambo]

angrymoby said:

The Vambo said:

Honestly, that is a dhead argument.

Only one driver in the world per year can be decent?

It's not even in the 'hmmm interesting point of view' bracket, it's just stupid.

first off, wind yer neck in.

Naw, tough guy. You can whine or complain to the mods, your choice.

angrymoby said:

so in my book anyone who does win a WDC is above average & thus 'decent'

Above average?

Ignorance isn't a defense but these words you are using have a predetermined meaning. If you think only one driver from 20 per year can be above average you are either mentally incapable of mathematics or don't understand what the word average means.

Only you can confirm what type of the 2 retards you are.

[angrymoby]

The Vambo said:

Above average?

Ignorance isn't a defense but these words you are using have a predetermined meaning. If you think only one driver from 20 per year can be above average you are either mentally incapable of mathematics or don't understand what the word average means.

Only you can confirm what type of the 2 retards you are.

bless

[The Vambo]

angrymoby said:

The Vambo said:

Above average?

Ignorance isn't a defense but these words you are using have a predetermined meaning. If you think only one driver from 20 per year can be above average you are either mentally incapable of mathematics or don't understand what the word average means.

Only you can confirm what type of the 2 retards you are.

bless

Stephen Fry, is that you?

As the locals say here, clamped.

[anonymous-user]

The Vambo said:

angrymoby said:

The Vambo said:

Honestly, that is a dhead argument.

Only one driver in the world per year can be decent?

It's not even in the 'hmmm interesting point of view' bracket, it's just stupid.

first off, wind yer neck in.

Naw, tough guy. You can whine or complain to the mods, your choice.

angrymoby said:

so in my book anyone who does win a WDC is above average & thus 'decent'

Above average?

Ignorance isn't a defense but these words you are using have a predetermined meaning. If you think only one driver from 20 per year can be above average you are either mentally incapable of mathematics or don't understand what the word average means.

Only you can confirm what type of the 2 retards you are.

The mathematics doesn’t really come into it given that the 20 individuals are being measured in many ways and some of the parameters don’t apply to all individuals.

If you think that, statistically, you can’t have only 1 individual above the average then you are quite wrong.

[The Vambo]

REALIST123 said:

If you think that, statistically, you can’t have only 1 individual above the average then you are quite wrong.

Lucky for me then that I do realise that it is theoretically possible for only 1/20 to be above average but practically extremely unlikely in this situation, wouldn't you agree?

Back to the point, when you have drivers like DC and Massa having a better win ratio than Button, it highlights how ridiculous the point is.

[Mr Tidy]

Tyre Smoke said:

Brilliant post cb, not sure I agree with all your points about Lewis, he whines and complains a lot when things aren't going his way. Something Senna or Schuey would never have done.

Maybe that is the difference - MS or AS would just drive into any challenger to take them out, whereas LH might whine but never put a competitor into the tyre wall!

For me that makes MS and AS look like cheating b*stards - it's not supposed to be a contact sport after all. There are other race series for that!

Actually I'd love to have seen either of them driving Saloon Stock Cars on an oval - a dose of reality is sometimes good!

[Mr Tidy]

Tyre Smoke said:

Brilliant post cb, not sure I agree with all your points about Lewis, he whines and complains a lot when things aren't going his way. Something Senna or Schuey would never have done.

Maybe that is the difference - MS or AS would just drive into any challenger to take them out, whereas LH might whine but never put a competitor into the tyre wall!

For me that makes MS and AS look like cheating b*stards - it's not supposed to be a contact sport after all. There are other race series for that!

Actually I'd love to have seen either of them driving Saloon Stock Cars on an oval - a dose of reality is sometimes good!

At least they would have learned about crashes that they didn't cause!

Edited by Mr Tidy on Sunday 26th August 00:33

[TobyTR]

angrymoby said:

TobyTR said:

Herbert, Barrichello, Massa and Irvine were decent drivers and he destroyed them all

clearly your definition of 'decent' differs to mine, as not a single WDC between them

TobyTR said:

I couldn't put any of the current WDC'ers into my top-5 because they've been categorically beaten by teammates in the past.

well, at least a few of them have raced against fellow WDC'ers (see Z's table about half way down)
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

TobyTR said:

Would a prime (not 43yo) M.Schumacher be beaten over an entire season by Rosberg, Button or Ricciardo in the same car? Not in my opinion.

i doubt he would have let them get a foot in the door

TobyTR said:

When another 40-43 year old multiple ex world champion returns to F1 and still remains highly competitive then I'll change my mind, but until then M.Schumacher is the only one to pull that off.

clearly your definition of 'highly competitive' differs to mine too

So you wouldn't class Felipe Massa as decent then? Despite losing out to Hamilton for the WDC only on the final lap of 2008? So in your view, any driver who finishes runner-up is not decent? Odd statement... Hell, even Irvine managed to score a couple of podiums in the Jaguar.

And Schumacher did set the fastest qualifying time in Monaco 2012 at the age of 43 and was relatively competitive that year, so yeah, it wasn't a total disaster given his age.

The hate for Schumacher is laughable.

[Sa Calobra]

Blag flags
Penalties
Banned
Tyres
Traction control
Rigged fuel rig
What else was there?

[37chevy]

Sa Calobra said:

Blag flags
Penalties
Banned
Tyres
Traction control
Rigged fuel rig
What else was there?

Team orders
Teammates handing over wins on the finish line
Flexible wings
Bargeboards
Running drivers off the track

And these are the ones I can remember quickly

[angrymoby]

The Vambo said:

Lucky for me then that I do realise that it is theoretically possible for only 1/20 to be above average but practically extremely unlikely in this situation, wouldn't you agree?

Back to the point, when you have drivers like DC and Massa having a better win ratio than Button, it highlights how ridiculous the point is.

I have no idea what stats you'd use to gauge what your 'average' F1 driver is ...over 800 drivers & lots of variables to consider, so many that even Z would balk i reckon. Maybe you could enlighten us a bit? ...but i reckon the general statement of "your average F1 driver doesn't win a championship" holds true

The Vambo said:

As the locals say here, clamped.

I'm not sure where your location is, to figure out the colloquial meaning? from the odd usage of the word 'defense' i'm guessing the U.S ...& with your apparent Rain Man'esque love of stats ...are your locals from Las Vegas?

[angrymoby]

TobyTR said:

So you wouldn't class Felipe Massa as decent then? Despite losing out to Hamilton for the WDC only on the final lap of 2008? So in your view, any driver who finishes runner-up is not decent? Odd statement... Hell, even Irvine managed to score a couple of podiums in the Jaguar.

In a word 'no'

he was in the fastest/ WCC car that year- & being in a Ferrari meant he also had all the gentle assistance of Bernie & Max as well ...yet still didn't win it.

lovely guy though, does that help?

TobyTR said:

The hate for Schumacher is laughable.

as is the salty defence of his record

as a side note, lovely guy though (off track)

[Sa Calobra]

Id say Lewis is the most clinical of them all. When things aren't going his way he has a moan. Others drive into people (including Vettel in there) etc etc.

Lewis stays cool. If he didn't mean everyone would call him ice cool.

Shame about MS. He showed his human side. Breaking down and crying in the press conference was one. Etc.

AS, Vettel and MS lost it for me when they let anger anf frustration take over their driving.

One thing I will point out- all those races were MS was a country mile ahead of everyone often 30sec+ ahead. How did he do that?

The times he wasn't caught.

[TobyTR]

angrymoby said:

TobyTR said:

So you wouldn't class Felipe Massa as decent then? Despite losing out to Hamilton for the WDC only on the final lap of 2008? So in your view, any driver who finishes runner-up is not decent? Odd statement... Hell, even Irvine managed to score a couple of podiums in the Jaguar.

In a word 'no'

he was in the fastest/ WCC car that year- & being in a Ferrari meant he also had all the gentle assistance of Bernie & Max as well ...yet still didn't win it.

lovely guy though, does that help?

TobyTR said:

The hate for Schumacher is laughable.

as is the salty defence of his record

as a side note, lovely guy though (off track)

I think you'll find the McLaren and Ferrari were evenly matched in 2008. Ferrari won the WCC because they had the stronger pairing of Massa and Kimi. So exactly what gentle assistance did Bernie & Max give Massa that year?

No salty defence of his record here, I'm just stating the facts. Even if you take Schumacher's dirty antics and team orders into account, he still has 6 WDCs andat least 86 wins... But in your eyes he's not one of the greatest, right?

alas, it's a salty defence of his record... I suggest you go and watch the 1996 F1 season again and his performances in a very average Ferrari. And the 2000 season when he beat Hakkinen in a fair fight.

[hairyben]

TobyTR said:

I think you'll find the McLaren and Ferrari were evenly matched in 2008. Ferrari won the WCC because they had the stronger pairing of Massa and Kimi. So exactly what gentle assistance did Bernie & Max give Massa that year?

No salty defence of his record here, I'm just stating the facts. Even if you take Schumacher's dirty antics and team orders into account, he still has 6 WDCs andat least 86 wins... But in your eyes he's not one of the greatest, right?

alas, it's a salty defence of his record... I suggest you go and watch the 1996 F1 season again and his performances in a very average Ferrari. And the 2000 season when he beat Hakkinen in a fair fight.

especially given his triumphant win in the wet at spa, legendary.

[Sa Calobra]

Many drivers have had great wet weather race and wins.

No offence but with the amount of question marks over his machinery you wonder if he was driving an assisted car.

How many drivers have such a question mark?

[irocfan]

Sa Calobra said:

Many drivers have had great wet weather race and wins.

No offence but with the amount of question marks over his machinery you wonder if he was driving an assisted car.

How many drivers have such a question mark?

EVERY era of motorsports people have tried to push the boundaries, if the engineers aren't trying it then they're not trying. To blame MS for this is to be looking at him quite unfairly as every driver will do whatever he can to gain an advantage

[Sa Calobra]

Do whatever he can.

That's one thing you could say about him.

[TobyTR]

Well ever since F1 Racing has published their '100 greatest F1 drivers of all time' feature, which is put together by ex F1 drivers and the top F1 journalists, M.Schumacher has always been ranked in the top-3, every time.

It's only biased British fans that don't rate him, as is evident on this thread

[anonymous-user]

Damon Hill rates him in the top 3 of all time, but then again he is not biased