Discussion
Kraken said:
According to Szafnauer the costs were really high (exorbitant in his words) and, apparently, in the Spa meeting the other teams were surprised at how much Stroll paid in the end. Sounds a long way from sweet FA to me.
The consortium could have played it in two ways, each with varying costs.Joe Saward does a good job on his blog of breaking down the finances of each option, and in the end why Stroll Senior took the more expensive (initially) route rather than the £39m or so of the initial deal.
NFC 85 Vette said:
It's as real a threat as there's been from him about quitting. This time around though, the reason is something that was caused by their own lack of discipline when facing the media, and it coming back to bite them. Wind the clock back to 2014, and those very public jibes directed at Renault. It didn't sit well, and if they were allowed to, Renault would have walked away from RBR at the end of that year.
Merc and Ferrari had no interest in providing them a power unit (we have to assume because it would make it the best car overall), so Renault were duty bound to keep providing engines. The underlying issue being that with their track record of being critical of their supply chain when things were anything other than a cake walk, it meant no power unit supplier would really volunteer their services unless they were having their own dramas and looked like they'd be without a customer...
...enter - Honda. Divorced from McLaren following some heated exchanges, and wholesale blamed for the lack of performance in the car. We now know that to not be the case, but once your reputation is mud, it's a case of guilty until proven innocent. Torro Rosso, as the 'B' team make a useful test mule. It kept Honda in the fold, after all the money and time they've invested, and if they do a good enough job, it would be adopted by RBR for 2019 - but it's likely they'd have no choice but to use it even if it was a turd, as Renault, providing it's very best French cuisine in the shape of cold served karma, wouldn't be powering their cars next year anyway (that was my understanding at least).
RBR had nowhere to turn, and they have to hope Honda sort it out - in a way I hope they do; they've been through a lot, dealt with a lot of flak and (as shown this year), weren't the root cause of McLaren's issues. On the other hand, Red Bull don't tend to play well with others, and their very public slagging off a supply chain partner, hasn't and wont help them in the long term. I hope RBR are more receptive to the cooling and packaging needs than they have been with Renault, otherwise they can just expect more of the same next year.
On a long enough timeline, the Honda engine might come good, and overtake Ferrari as being the big dog in the power unit stakes, but I think RBR need to be realistic that those days might not be as soon as Melbourne next year, so by mid-2019 it wouldn't be surprising if Horner / Marko start rattling the sabre about how useless they believe Honda to be.
Great post, exactly my thoughts. Merc and Ferrari had no interest in providing them a power unit (we have to assume because it would make it the best car overall), so Renault were duty bound to keep providing engines. The underlying issue being that with their track record of being critical of their supply chain when things were anything other than a cake walk, it meant no power unit supplier would really volunteer their services unless they were having their own dramas and looked like they'd be without a customer...
...enter - Honda. Divorced from McLaren following some heated exchanges, and wholesale blamed for the lack of performance in the car. We now know that to not be the case, but once your reputation is mud, it's a case of guilty until proven innocent. Torro Rosso, as the 'B' team make a useful test mule. It kept Honda in the fold, after all the money and time they've invested, and if they do a good enough job, it would be adopted by RBR for 2019 - but it's likely they'd have no choice but to use it even if it was a turd, as Renault, providing it's very best French cuisine in the shape of cold served karma, wouldn't be powering their cars next year anyway (that was my understanding at least).
RBR had nowhere to turn, and they have to hope Honda sort it out - in a way I hope they do; they've been through a lot, dealt with a lot of flak and (as shown this year), weren't the root cause of McLaren's issues. On the other hand, Red Bull don't tend to play well with others, and their very public slagging off a supply chain partner, hasn't and wont help them in the long term. I hope RBR are more receptive to the cooling and packaging needs than they have been with Renault, otherwise they can just expect more of the same next year.
On a long enough timeline, the Honda engine might come good, and overtake Ferrari as being the big dog in the power unit stakes, but I think RBR need to be realistic that those days might not be as soon as Melbourne next year, so by mid-2019 it wouldn't be surprising if Horner / Marko start rattling the sabre about how useless they believe Honda to be.
Edited by NFC 85 Vette on Wednesday 5th September 15:09
Kraken said:
According to Szafnauer the costs were really high (exorbitant in his words) and, apparently, in the Spa meeting the other teams were surprised at how much Stroll paid in the end. Sounds a long way from sweet FA to me.
One way, or another, they were agreeing to pay the existing debts. They were not paying a premium for the business based on its price / earnings ratio. That has little, or no value as they all tend to spend more than they earn.janesmith1950 said:
StevieBee said:
I don't think it does. At the moment at least. Formula E is attracting the manufacturers as it is they see electric motive power as the new 'mainstream' and Red Bull don't do mainstream. Quite the reverse.
It's a younger audience than F1 and arguably more relavant into the future. Red Bull would venture there for the same reason.The Red Bull brand values are all about edginess, extremes, endurance, finding limits and exceeding them, etc.
The Formula E 'brand' values are all about efficiency, sustainability, technology. The alignment simply doesn't exist between the two - yet.
The next generation FE certainly look exciting and as the tech improves then we may well see the formula become more appealing to the likes of Red Bull but given they are probably the most astute marketing company in the world today, one would consider it reasonable that if they felt FE to be viable for them, they'd already be there.
StevieBee said:
The Red Bull brand values are all about edginess, extremes, endurance, finding limits and exceeding them, etc.
I agree.There's a huge gap between the values of Edginess and the values of Sustainability.
Edginess is found in Moto GP and the TT, although Monster Energy currently has the TT wrapped up.
StevieBee said:
Marketing isn't about simply getting a brand name in front of people. It's about getting in front of the right people on the right platform at the right time.
The Red Bull brand values are all about edginess, extremes, endurance, finding limits and exceeding them, etc.
The Formula E 'brand' values are all about efficiency, sustainability, technology. The alignment simply doesn't exist between the two - yet.
The next generation FE certainly look exciting and as the tech improves then we may well see the formula become more appealing to the likes of Red Bull but given they are probably the most astute marketing company in the world today, one would consider it reasonable that if they felt FE to be viable for them, they'd already be there.
Agree with what you've said. F1 has run its course for Red Bull. You will see more and more movement of brands to FE simply because it will capture more and more of the market. It is and will remain far cheaper to market in than F1 and will therefore offer a cost effective platform for marketers where they can show the board constant upward movement. The Red Bull brand values are all about edginess, extremes, endurance, finding limits and exceeding them, etc.
The Formula E 'brand' values are all about efficiency, sustainability, technology. The alignment simply doesn't exist between the two - yet.
The next generation FE certainly look exciting and as the tech improves then we may well see the formula become more appealing to the likes of Red Bull but given they are probably the most astute marketing company in the world today, one would consider it reasonable that if they felt FE to be viable for them, they'd already be there.
F1 is not such a good mass market show at the moment and poor value for money, which is why there's a dearth of headline sponsors clamouring over themselves to participate.
janesmith1950 said:
gree with what you've said. F1 has run its course for Red Bull. You will see more and more movement of brands to FE simply because it will capture more and more of the market. It is and will remain far cheaper to market in than F1 and will therefore offer a cost effective platform for marketers where they can show the board constant upward movement.
F1 is not such a good mass market show at the moment and poor value for money, which is why there's a dearth of headline sponsors clamouring over themselves to participate.
Yes, although certain brands need to reach specific demographics. An increase in general eyeballs alone is not enough.F1 is not such a good mass market show at the moment and poor value for money, which is why there's a dearth of headline sponsors clamouring over themselves to participate.
F1 is a different proposition to FE, at least it was until the FIA started worrying about being more green and getting rid of the exciting and edgy engines.
Agreed. One thing that I think is changing, though, is society- youngsters in particular.
When I was a kid through the early 80s onwards, I loved cars. I grew into loving anything petrol powered. All my mates were I to cars, were desperate to reach 17 and get their 'wings'.
I don't think youngsters now, in the western world at least, are a titillated by cars and motors in the same way as previous generations.
They're more interested in tech and, dare I say it, EVs and associated are closer to that tech than piston engined machines ever would be.
I love F1, despite the rule changes, the good years, the bad years, I love the machines and the battles and the noises and the smells. I think I'm in what is becoming an increasingly smaller minority.
That's why I think, as a marketing device, F1 will only get less and less relevant to mass-brands.
When I was a kid through the early 80s onwards, I loved cars. I grew into loving anything petrol powered. All my mates were I to cars, were desperate to reach 17 and get their 'wings'.
I don't think youngsters now, in the western world at least, are a titillated by cars and motors in the same way as previous generations.
They're more interested in tech and, dare I say it, EVs and associated are closer to that tech than piston engined machines ever would be.
I love F1, despite the rule changes, the good years, the bad years, I love the machines and the battles and the noises and the smells. I think I'm in what is becoming an increasingly smaller minority.
That's why I think, as a marketing device, F1 will only get less and less relevant to mass-brands.
janesmith1950 said:
I don't think youngsters now, in the western world at least, are a titillated by cars and motors in the same way as previous generations.
I keep hearing this on PH, but it's not as cut and dried as that. I certainly think your statement holds true for middle class kids raised in cities. They're been brought up to care about the polar bears, that driving is slow and boring and that buying a couple of houses makes you a millionaire. Public transport and Uber works for them and they aspire to own property (how boring!). But working class kids, particularly in bits of the country where the average traffic speed is in double figures, or the last bus home is at 10:30pm, still love their petrol-powered cars, albeit in a different way to how some of us duffers loved cars back in the day.Edited by HardtopManual on Saturday 8th September 21:25
sparta6 said:
janesmith1950 said:
gree with what you've said. F1 has run its course for Red Bull. You will see more and more movement of brands to FE simply because it will capture more and more of the market. It is and will remain far cheaper to market in than F1 and will therefore offer a cost effective platform for marketers where they can show the board constant upward movement.
F1 is not such a good mass market show at the moment and poor value for money, which is why there's a dearth of headline sponsors clamouring over themselves to participate.
Yes, although certain brands need to reach specific demographics. An increase in general eyeballs alone is not enough.F1 is not such a good mass market show at the moment and poor value for money, which is why there's a dearth of headline sponsors clamouring over themselves to participate.
F1 is a different proposition to FE, at least it was until the FIA started worrying about being more green and getting rid of the exciting and edgy engines.
The move to the turbocharged V6 engines with Energy recovery and energy boost systems was driven by the engine manufacturers themselves. F1 has long been too expensive to just be a marketing exercise and engine suppliers were desperate to show at least some sort of technical transfer and expertise between F1 and road car technology, even if only to placate the board that F1 was relevant. How many normally aspirated V8's with 17k rpm are there in road cars? None of course. How many small capacity turbocharged engines with energy recovery abilities are there? Thousands with many more coming.
It's a delicate balancing act, acting in the best interests of the fans, the sport in general and the manufacturers. Generally I think the FIA and FOM have got it more or less right most of the time.
IMHO, Red Bull could be the surprise package for next year. Interesting exchange and a difference of opinion expressed here;
Red Bull 'hiding facts' about Honda power - Abiteboul
By GMM F1
Cyril Abiteboul has scoffed at Red Bull's optimism about life with Honda power.
Abiteboul is the boss at Renault, where he was at the epicentre of the French manufacturer's eventually poisonous relationship with Red Bull.
For 2019, Red Bull is finally leaving Renault to become Honda's new works engine partner. This year, the energy drink owned team has been hyping up expectations that life with Honda will be much better.
"Honda is still 20 kilowatts behind us," Abiteboul insisted, according to Marca sports newspaper.
"I know what Red Bull says but they're hiding the facts and manipulating the data. I understand their communication strategy, but there are no facts," he charged.
"Eventually it will be seen that Honda is 20 kilowatts behind and that they have not moved from their current position," Abiteboul added.
Red Bull's Dr Helmut Marko responded to Abiteboul's comments.
"We do not need to discuss that because next year we will see what our position is," he said. "Mr Abiteboul will continue to daydream but next year it will be completely clear."
https://www.sportsmole.co.uk/formula-1/red-bull/ne...
Red Bull 'hiding facts' about Honda power - Abiteboul
By GMM F1
Cyril Abiteboul has scoffed at Red Bull's optimism about life with Honda power.
Abiteboul is the boss at Renault, where he was at the epicentre of the French manufacturer's eventually poisonous relationship with Red Bull.
For 2019, Red Bull is finally leaving Renault to become Honda's new works engine partner. This year, the energy drink owned team has been hyping up expectations that life with Honda will be much better.
"Honda is still 20 kilowatts behind us," Abiteboul insisted, according to Marca sports newspaper.
"I know what Red Bull says but they're hiding the facts and manipulating the data. I understand their communication strategy, but there are no facts," he charged.
"Eventually it will be seen that Honda is 20 kilowatts behind and that they have not moved from their current position," Abiteboul added.
Red Bull's Dr Helmut Marko responded to Abiteboul's comments.
"We do not need to discuss that because next year we will see what our position is," he said. "Mr Abiteboul will continue to daydream but next year it will be completely clear."
https://www.sportsmole.co.uk/formula-1/red-bull/ne...
The current odds on Oddschecker;
2019 Formula 1 Winner:
Lewis Hamilton 1/1
Sebastian Vettel 7/2
Max Verstappen 28/5
Charles Leclerc 19/2
Valtteri Bottas 16/1
https://www.oddschecker.com/motorsport/formula-1/w...
2019 Constructor Championship:
Mercedes 3/5
Ferrari 11/4
Red Bull 7/2
Williams 500/1
https://www.oddschecker.com/motorsport/formula-1/2...
Interesting reading what Ross Brawn is thinking too...
Brawn: Honda will make Red Bull title contenders
21-12-2018 09:57
by Matt Gretton
Ross Brawn says Red Bull and Honda must become championship contenders. Red Bull, who now become a full works team, have a really good opportunity according to the Formula 1 boss.
The Austrian team haven't been on the top spot since they completed a four-year title sweep in 2013, while Honda hasn't touched a podium since their reintroduction to Formula 1 in 2015.
"Honda teaming up with Red Bull will be positive because Red Bull become a full works team," Brawn told Autosport.
"It's something I have always focused on because it really does give you some great chances. Red Bull have now got to grasp that opportunity with Honda and get back into the really sharp end.
"They have to become a championship contender again."
Helmut Marko and his Red Bull colleagues have suggested the team must make Max Verstappen the youngest champion ever in Formula 1. They'll have two seasons to achieve this feat and Brawn insists the 21-year-old has all the talent to beat the likes of Hamilton and Vettel.
"What we are seeing with Max is a great maturing of his approach, losing none of his speed and aggression but just being a bit more tempered in terms of how he attacks things," Brawn added.
"In the right car and right team, he's world champion material for sure. Max will be the known reference in the team in 2019."
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/28263/ross-brawn-re...
2019 Formula 1 Winner:
Lewis Hamilton 1/1
Sebastian Vettel 7/2
Max Verstappen 28/5
Charles Leclerc 19/2
Valtteri Bottas 16/1
https://www.oddschecker.com/motorsport/formula-1/w...
2019 Constructor Championship:
Mercedes 3/5
Ferrari 11/4
Red Bull 7/2
Williams 500/1
https://www.oddschecker.com/motorsport/formula-1/2...
Interesting reading what Ross Brawn is thinking too...
Brawn: Honda will make Red Bull title contenders
21-12-2018 09:57
by Matt Gretton
Ross Brawn says Red Bull and Honda must become championship contenders. Red Bull, who now become a full works team, have a really good opportunity according to the Formula 1 boss.
The Austrian team haven't been on the top spot since they completed a four-year title sweep in 2013, while Honda hasn't touched a podium since their reintroduction to Formula 1 in 2015.
"Honda teaming up with Red Bull will be positive because Red Bull become a full works team," Brawn told Autosport.
"It's something I have always focused on because it really does give you some great chances. Red Bull have now got to grasp that opportunity with Honda and get back into the really sharp end.
"They have to become a championship contender again."
Helmut Marko and his Red Bull colleagues have suggested the team must make Max Verstappen the youngest champion ever in Formula 1. They'll have two seasons to achieve this feat and Brawn insists the 21-year-old has all the talent to beat the likes of Hamilton and Vettel.
"What we are seeing with Max is a great maturing of his approach, losing none of his speed and aggression but just being a bit more tempered in terms of how he attacks things," Brawn added.
"In the right car and right team, he's world champion material for sure. Max will be the known reference in the team in 2019."
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/28263/ross-brawn-re...
Some people thought Alonso could be WDC before the 2015 season. The Honda might be improving, but so are all the others. Unless they can come up with a chassis that's so far ahead of the others under the new rules, they won't be any better off than they have been with the Renault.
Their biggest problem to overcome if they want to win the championship is reliability. Red Bull make unreliable cars, and Honda make unreliable engines. Putting the two together doesn't sound like a recipe for success. I don't doubt that they'll have days when they're very fast, but I just don't think they'll have enough of those days where they're fast and reliable.
Their biggest problem to overcome if they want to win the championship is reliability. Red Bull make unreliable cars, and Honda make unreliable engines. Putting the two together doesn't sound like a recipe for success. I don't doubt that they'll have days when they're very fast, but I just don't think they'll have enough of those days where they're fast and reliable.
Fortitude said:
Brawn: Honda will make Red Bull title contenders
21-12-2018 09:57
by Matt Gretton
Ross Brawn says Red Bull and Honda must become championship contenders. Red Bull, who now become a full works team, have a really good opportunity according to the Formula 1 boss.
The Austrian team haven't been on the top spot since they completed a four-year title sweep in 2013, while Honda hasn't touched a podium since their reintroduction to Formula 1 in 2015.
"Honda teaming up with Red Bull will be positive because Red Bull become a full works team," Brawn told Autosport.
"It's something I have always focused on because it really does give you some great chances. Red Bull have now got to grasp that opportunity with Honda and get back into the really sharp end.
"They have to become a championship contender again."
Helmut Marko and his Red Bull colleagues have suggested the team must make Max Verstappen the youngest champion ever in Formula 1. They'll have two seasons to achieve this feat and Brawn insists the 21-year-old has all the talent to beat the likes of Hamilton and Vettel.
"What we are seeing with Max is a great maturing of his approach, losing none of his speed and aggression but just being a bit more tempered in terms of how he attacks things," Brawn added.
"In the right car and right team, he's world champion material for sure. Max will be the known reference in the team in 2019."
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/28263/ross-brawn-re...
Is it just me or does the article NOT support the headline there? I read Mr Brawn basically saying Red Bull and Honda had to make it work, no doubt because if it fails we'll have an engine manufacturer dropping out and a team with no engine. I didn't read it in any way as Mr Brawn saying they were going to suceed.21-12-2018 09:57
by Matt Gretton
Ross Brawn says Red Bull and Honda must become championship contenders. Red Bull, who now become a full works team, have a really good opportunity according to the Formula 1 boss.
The Austrian team haven't been on the top spot since they completed a four-year title sweep in 2013, while Honda hasn't touched a podium since their reintroduction to Formula 1 in 2015.
"Honda teaming up with Red Bull will be positive because Red Bull become a full works team," Brawn told Autosport.
"It's something I have always focused on because it really does give you some great chances. Red Bull have now got to grasp that opportunity with Honda and get back into the really sharp end.
"They have to become a championship contender again."
Helmut Marko and his Red Bull colleagues have suggested the team must make Max Verstappen the youngest champion ever in Formula 1. They'll have two seasons to achieve this feat and Brawn insists the 21-year-old has all the talent to beat the likes of Hamilton and Vettel.
"What we are seeing with Max is a great maturing of his approach, losing none of his speed and aggression but just being a bit more tempered in terms of how he attacks things," Brawn added.
"In the right car and right team, he's world champion material for sure. Max will be the known reference in the team in 2019."
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/28263/ross-brawn-re...
willy wombat said:
For what it’s worth, back in the summer when Red Bull confirmed that they were going with Honda, I put £20 on with William Hill for Max V to win the 2019 championship (and I’m a Lewis fan!).
I reckon that's probably worth £20 ... to the bookie 
What odds did you get?
//j17 said:
Is it just me or does the article NOT support the headline there? I read Mr Brawn basically saying Red Bull and Honda had to make it work, no doubt because if it fails we'll have an engine manufacturer dropping out and a team with no engine. I didn't read it in any way as Mr Brawn saying they were going to suceed.
//j17,Good point. In some ways Ross Brawn is ‘ramping up’ the pressure, as well as, selling the 2019 F1 Championship…
thegreenhell said:
Some people thought Alonso could be WDC before the 2015 season. The Honda might be improving, but so are all the others. Unless they can come up with a chassis that's so far ahead of the others under the new rules, they won't be any better off than they have been with the Renault.
Their biggest problem to overcome if they want to win the championship is reliability. Red Bull make unreliable cars, and Honda make unreliable engines. Putting the two together doesn't sound like a recipe for success. I don't doubt that they'll have days when they're very fast, but I just don't think they'll have enough of those days where they're fast and reliable.
thegreenhell,Their biggest problem to overcome if they want to win the championship is reliability. Red Bull make unreliable cars, and Honda make unreliable engines. Putting the two together doesn't sound like a recipe for success. I don't doubt that they'll have days when they're very fast, but I just don't think they'll have enough of those days where they're fast and reliable.
You make some good points. My guess, is that with being a ‘works team’, they ‘splash the cash’ on another Adrian Newey innovation, like they have been dreaming of for some time…
Could it be, that Red Bull know that the 2019 Honda ‘engine spec’ will be competitive, as well as the car.
The ‘achilles heel’, as you have mentioned, will be reliability.
Fortitude said:
thegreenhell said:
Some people thought Alonso could be WDC before the 2015 season. The Honda might be improving, but so are all the others. Unless they can come up with a chassis that's so far ahead of the others under the new rules, they won't be any better off than they have been with the Renault.
Their biggest problem to overcome if they want to win the championship is reliability. Red Bull make unreliable cars, and Honda make unreliable engines. Putting the two together doesn't sound like a recipe for success. I don't doubt that they'll have days when they're very fast, but I just don't think they'll have enough of those days where they're fast and reliable.
thegreenhell,Their biggest problem to overcome if they want to win the championship is reliability. Red Bull make unreliable cars, and Honda make unreliable engines. Putting the two together doesn't sound like a recipe for success. I don't doubt that they'll have days when they're very fast, but I just don't think they'll have enough of those days where they're fast and reliable.
You make some good points. My guess, is that with being a ‘works team’, they ‘splash the cash’ on another Adrian Newey innovation, like they have been dreaming of for some time…
Could it be, that Red Bull know that the 2019 Honda ‘engine spec’ will be competitive, as well as the car.
The ‘achilles heel’, as you have mentioned, will be reliability.
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