Red Bull

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Stan the Bat

4,373 posts

149 months

Sunday 30th December 2018
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I hope you are right.


Fortitude

292 posts

129 months

Tuesday 1st January
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Sharpening the attack: How Red Bull emerged as a threat again
Senior writer
Lawrence Barretto
30 December 2018

FINAL paragraph of the article;

"So what of Red Bull chances next year? Can they become genuine title contenders for the first time since 2013 if Honda delivers an engine on par with Mercedes and Ferrari? “I think we will certainly be a lot closer, yes,” says Horner. Maybe, just maybe, a two-way fight will become three next year."

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.sharpen...

Lucas Ayde

1,899 posts

105 months

Wednesday 2nd January
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Can't help think that it's just wishful thinking from RB. Unless Honda come good in stunning fashion and RB execute transferring to the new power unit perfectly of course.


If they do mount a real challenge for the WDC, will be interesting to see how Verstappen behaves wrt to passing when he has something to lose. In the past he's been happy to be seen to be willing to cause a collision when he wants to either get past someone, or block someone from passing. If you are sitting at the head of the table then the prospect of crashing out becomes a lot more costly.

Equally, if they aren't at least as competitive as 2018, it will be entertaining to see how he handles it. Especially if Ricciardo is placing ahead of him. Could be some fantastic tantrums in prospect laugh


Mr_Thyroid

1,642 posts

164 months

Wednesday 2nd January
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The story is always more complicated that the championship positions but I was comparing 2018 results to 2017 for the Renault/Honda users:

RedBull - increased points and number of wins
McLaren - increased points and championship position
Renault - increased points and championship position
TorroRosso - decreased points and championship position (and best placed driver - fewer points and lower championship position)

I was surprised by this - the positive noises from Red Bull made me imagine that Torro Rosso probably did better than last year.

//j17

3,078 posts

160 months

Wednesday 2nd January
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Lucas Ayde said:
If they do mount a real challenge for the WDC, will be interesting to see how Verstappen behaves wrt to passing when he has something to lose. In the past he's been happy to be seen to be willing to cause a collision when he wants to either get past someone, or block someone from passing. If you are sitting at the head of the table then the prospect of crashing out becomes a lot more costly.
Personally I think he'll start out as the same petulant teenager who think's he's god's gift to driving...until he tries to bully a Hamilton/Vettel he's actually fighting against for the WDC. Rather than letting him past to take the odd race win and finish a distant 4th in the WDC I think he'll find himself walking back to the pits.
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Fortitude

292 posts

129 months

Saturday 5th January
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LAST paragraph from a thought provoking article;

"I think Red Bull will be very good at making sure Honda have that clarity of what should be focused on."

Brawn noted Honda's progress in 2018 and its improved communication with Red Bull, a well-known weakness of the McLaren-Honda association. But Formula 1's sporting manager doubts the Milton Keynes-based outfit can pull off a championship this year.

"Red Bull are a terrific racing company and they do great cars. It's a special opportunity for Honda to succeed," added Brawn.

"I expect Red Bull to continue winning races. Whether there is enough there yet, in the first year of the partnership, to win championship, I don't know.

"It would be pretty special if they did, but I think next season will be the first of a new partnership that is going to bring world championships."

Brawn: Honda success will depend on Red Bull setting 'the right priorities'

http://f1i.com/news/327306-brawn-honda-success-wil...

Fortitude

292 posts

129 months

Saturday 5th January
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thegreenhell said:
MissChief said:
It’s reckoned both Mercedes and Ferrari were knocking on the door of 1,000HP in ‘party/qualifying’ mode with Renault 20-30HP back and Honda a further 10-20HP back. If they continue to work on this, and with the increase to 105Kg of fuel, they could hit this with regularity in the race. Even if Honda gain 40HP they’ll still be short of Ferrari and Mercedes, but i guess they’re aiming for Renault at the moment.
Renault themselves are claiming big gains for next season. It wouldn't surprise me if they were deliberately holding back some good developments over the past year, as they didn't really show much progress through 2018. They were trying to 'encourage' RBR to drop them in favour of Honda, and then once that deal was done they wouldn't have any motivation to show their hand before the end of the season either. They let them run the 'spec 3' Renault a couple of times, but it seemed a bit half-hearted, as if they knew there was something much better waiting in the wings.
'Honda 2019 development hits two setbacks'
5th January 2018, 10:12 , by Matthew Scott

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/3857/honda-2019...

thegreenhell

4,924 posts

156 months

Saturday 5th January
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Fortitude said:
'Honda 2019 development hits two setbacks'
5th January 2018, 10:12 , by Matthew Scott

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/3857/honda-2019...
Meanwhile, Renault F1 engine gains "much bigger" than ever before

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/renault-winter-...

Honda may well have surpassed the power output of the 2018 Renault, but everyone else has moved on as well. It's no good just being better than the others were last year. The Honda issues described in the article above are the same they've been having for years, so if there's any truth in it then it's got to be very worrying for RBR if Honda can't figure out something so fundamental.

Kraken

632 posts

137 months

Saturday 5th January
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I read an article a while ago from Gerry Anderson where he said the problem with Honda was they always thought their engine was better than everybody elses even when they had the facts in front of them. I read another article yesterday from Ross Brawn where he said the exact same thing about when he joined Honda. They insisted their engine was the best when Brawn knew full well, having come from there, that the Ferrari engine was far better.

Doink

1,193 posts

84 months

Sunday 6th January
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I don't wish any ill on Honda, we need them in F1 competing with the best however I just can't stop smirking on the thought of Horners face when weekend after weekend he gets asked 'where did it go wrong for you this weekend Christian', 'how much do you think you are losing down the straights Christian?'........

MissChief

4,943 posts

105 months

Sunday 6th January
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Doink said:
I don't wish any ill on Honda, we need them in F1 competing with the best however I just can't stop smirking on the thought of Horners face when weekend after weekend he gets asked 'where did it go wrong for you this weekend Christian', 'how much do you think you are losing down the straights Christian?'........
He will likely be a bit more restrained than he was as a Renault customer, but likely still putting pressure on Honda for more power. I hope he isn’t though!

rdjohn

3,088 posts

132 months

Sunday 6th January
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As a paying customer, I always felt that Horner and Marko were fully justified in complaining about poor performance from Renault.

Renault and PURE were very vocal that this was the way forward for F1 motive power and dragged Mercedes and Ferrari along, only to produce the most expensive and worst performing PU. I am sure that Horner would have been very happy to continue with the engine that won RB 4-championships on the trot. They had delivered the performance edge that RB were paying for.

RB can now see that Honda are pouring in the resources that fully justifies RB supporting two team efforts. He also knows that if a Honda partnership does not work, there is no alternative but to quit F1.

That will be F1’s loss - there are lots of other activities that fully justify the huge sums that Dietrich Mateschitz can put cash his into.



Doink

1,193 posts

84 months

Sunday 6th January
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Trouble is even if everybody had Mercedes engines there could still only be one winner and 19 losers and I suspect Horner would never be really happy unless his team were winning. Back to renault though yes I agree to an extent in that you make your displeasure known to renault for the slightly underpowered engine you pay for but its the same engine they put in their own cars so its not like they're ripping you off - the fact of the matter is the engine isn't as good as a Merc but they go racing with what they have at that particular point in time, Horner might well not be happy with that but he should have done all his moaning behind closed doors but he chose to do it to the worldwide media to try and make renault look like a right bunch of chumps so for that I really hope the Honda proves no better which is a shame for Honda as they deserve a better team

rdjohn

3,088 posts

132 months

Sunday 6th January
quotequote all
Media tends to drive what we think.

You stick a microphone in front of Horner and ask “are you disappointed with the Renault engine failure today?” And produce the headline.

HORNER SLAMS APPALLING RENAULT PERFORMANCE

Red Bull know how to manufacture a championship car. In 2014, they were the only other manufacturer capable of wins, but the PU’s were unreliable - in a championship that heavily penalised unreliability.

Even after 5-seasons when both Ferrari and Mercedes were incredibly durable with just 3 PUs, Renault seemed to be shooting into the wind. As a partner, you grin and bear it. As a paying customer, you complain repeatedly.

In what field of competition would anyone just shrug their shoulders and say “C’est la vie”?

If you were a happy Ford customer for 4-cars and then the price goes up and you get 4-dogs, would you be the slightest bit happy with Ford? It is exactly the same principle.

LaurasOtherHalf

14,201 posts

133 months

Sunday 6th January
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People seem to be quick to forget the fractious relationship RB had with renault even when they were winning championships.


ajprice

15,526 posts

133 months

Tuesday 8th January
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https://wtf1.com/post/red-bull-already-thinks-it-m...

Marko's saying there's a strong possibility that RB will have to plan for engine penalties, because of the Honda's reliability.

Another article with the same quotes about Honda reliability says their power will be above Renault, closer to Merc/Ferrari and they'll have a party mode https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red-bull-honda-... .

Swings and roundabouts, I think the basic message is "We'll be fast until it breaks." hehe

Edited by ajprice on Wednesday 9th January 06:36

Stan the Bat

4,373 posts

149 months

Thursday 10th January
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I wonder how long they will give Gasly when Verstappen starts wiping the floor with him.

Kraken

632 posts

137 months

Monday 14th January
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So Torro Rosso are now saying that they are prepared to take more engine penalties to help develop the Honda engine faster and so help Red Bull with the championship. Guess that's what happens with junior teams but it doesn't sit right with me.

Fortitude

292 posts

129 months

Yesterday (19:33)
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Doink said:
I don't wish any ill on Honda, we need them in F1 competing with the best however I just can't stop smirking on the thought of Horners face when weekend after weekend he gets asked 'where did it go wrong for you this weekend Christian', 'how much do you think you are losing down the straights Christian?'........
Thumbs up from Christian Horner at the moment...

Horner upbeat on Honda progress
NEWS STORY
17/01/2019

Following a tempestuous twelve-year relationship with Renault, this season sees Red Bull begin a new partnership with Honda.

With the Japanese manufacturer signalling an even bigger step forward than that taken in 2018, Honda convinced it will benefit from the data now supplied by two teams and Toro Rosso willing (eager?) to continue as guinea pig for big sister, the mood in Milton Keynes is extremely positive.

"Communication in any business, in particular in this sport, is a vital element," Christian Horner tells the official F1 website.


"Obviously Honda are based in Japan, but their UK base is just around the corner from us in Milton Keynes," he adds. "We've obviously got a huge amount of discussion going on between the groups.

"So far it's all been very positive and I think we've found a very healthy working environment, that we've been nurturing through the relationship with Red Bull technology, Toro Rosso and Honda, so that we don't go into next year completely afresh."

Despite claiming four wins with Renault last season, Horner remains convinced that but for more power from the French unit it could have been more.

"It's always easy to say ifs, buts and maybes," he admits. "If there would have been another 40kw in the back of the car then the season could have looked quite different.

"Hats off to everyone at Milton Keynes for arguably producing one of our best ever chassis. If you look at the other users with the same engine, there's a world of difference."

https://www.pitpass.com/63781/Horner-upbeat-on-Hon...

37chevy

2,199 posts

93 months

Stan the Bat said:
I wonder how long they will give Gasly when Verstappen starts wiping the floor with him.
What makes you think that will happen? Gasly has shown he’s more than capable in F1....