Red bull and Honda
Discussion
isaldiri said:
If Honda somehow are competitive it'll still mean only 3 potentially race winning engines. The Renault engine in the works team or Mclaren hasn't exactly looked a race winning engine has it?
Red Bull have won races and got quite a few podiums with it so the engine clearly can be competitive in the right chassis.Is the Honda going to be better than the Renault engine? Hard to say as only one team is running it this season and they have been struggling to be middle-tier for years no matter what engine - but bear in mind that Red Bull waited until the last possible moment before committing to Honda for next year (and they would have had full access to the raw stats from Toro Rosso). Not exactly a sign of confidence in a clearly better engine, despite their braggadocio about Honda vs Renault since then.
SmoothCriminal said:
Redbull are not "contenders" now either.
They get a few lucky results when ferrari and mercedes make tactical errors or have mechanicals.
Why be a customer and have a same old same old approach. Renault have had since the inception of the hybrid formula to make a competitive engine and they haven't managed to.
Redbull will be a Honda factory team with all the support that brings.
Can bet the redbulls will still be finishing ahead of the ph messiah teeth at renault next year.
What? Seriously? You could swap RB for McLaren in your post and look how that worked out.They get a few lucky results when ferrari and mercedes make tactical errors or have mechanicals.
Why be a customer and have a same old same old approach. Renault have had since the inception of the hybrid formula to make a competitive engine and they haven't managed to.
Redbull will be a Honda factory team with all the support that brings.
Can bet the redbulls will still be finishing ahead of the ph messiah teeth at renault next year.
RB are in similar position to McLaren. They had multiple engine issues and eventually gave up and swapped to the next supplier they could find. There is absolutely no guarantee that Honda can make any better a job of it than Renault. I'd rather have a Renault engine than a Honda one!
I really can't see Red Bull being any worse off with Honda than they are with Renault.
Firstly we don't know for sure their reasoning on the technical side but we do know that Red Bull will enjoy the benefit of being a 'works' team once again. Personally I bet the Honda has some packaging, weight, centre of gravity advantage etc which has given Newey some cause to be excited about it. It may be complementary to the team's philosophy.
The Red Bull Renault relationship was broken and Renault looking to ascend weren't going to help Red Bull win for much longer.
Honda has now arrived, their PU is rumoured to have 60bhp more than the Renault- and Honda's upward trajectory has been that bit steeper, with Renault appearing to be paralysed with fear of reliability issues at times.
Finally Renault are saying they are going to be less conservative in future and will be bringing a pretty much all new PU for 2019. With their rate of progress I can't help thinking that they may take a step back before they go forwards. See Honda's reliability immediately after big change.
For the benefit of the sport I'd love to see both PUs take a significant step forward for 2019 but I don't think Red Bull are going to lose out much in this instance.
Firstly we don't know for sure their reasoning on the technical side but we do know that Red Bull will enjoy the benefit of being a 'works' team once again. Personally I bet the Honda has some packaging, weight, centre of gravity advantage etc which has given Newey some cause to be excited about it. It may be complementary to the team's philosophy.
The Red Bull Renault relationship was broken and Renault looking to ascend weren't going to help Red Bull win for much longer.
Honda has now arrived, their PU is rumoured to have 60bhp more than the Renault- and Honda's upward trajectory has been that bit steeper, with Renault appearing to be paralysed with fear of reliability issues at times.
Finally Renault are saying they are going to be less conservative in future and will be bringing a pretty much all new PU for 2019. With their rate of progress I can't help thinking that they may take a step back before they go forwards. See Honda's reliability immediately after big change.
For the benefit of the sport I'd love to see both PUs take a significant step forward for 2019 but I don't think Red Bull are going to lose out much in this instance.
Lucas Ayde said:
Red Bull have won races and got quite a few podiums with it so the engine clearly can be competitive in the right chassis.
Is the Honda going to be better than the Renault engine? Hard to say as only one team is running it this season and they have been struggling to be middle-tier for years no matter what engine - but bear in mind that Red Bull waited until the last possible moment before committing to Honda for next year (and they would have had full access to the raw stats from Toro Rosso). Not exactly a sign of confidence in a clearly better engine, despite their braggadocio about Honda vs Renault since then.
My point was that without red bull, the Renault engine wouldn't have a hope of winning a race. Looking at McLaren and Renault results you would hardly say the engine looks like a race winning one would you? Of course it's possible Renault will make a huge step up next year both engine and chassis for the works team but it's probably rather unlikely I'd say. Is the Honda going to be better than the Renault engine? Hard to say as only one team is running it this season and they have been struggling to be middle-tier for years no matter what engine - but bear in mind that Red Bull waited until the last possible moment before committing to Honda for next year (and they would have had full access to the raw stats from Toro Rosso). Not exactly a sign of confidence in a clearly better engine, despite their braggadocio about Honda vs Renault since then.
isaldiri said:
Lucas Ayde said:
Red Bull have won races and got quite a few podiums with it so the engine clearly can be competitive in the right chassis.
Is the Honda going to be better than the Renault engine? Hard to say as only one team is running it this season and they have been struggling to be middle-tier for years no matter what engine - but bear in mind that Red Bull waited until the last possible moment before committing to Honda for next year (and they would have had full access to the raw stats from Toro Rosso). Not exactly a sign of confidence in a clearly better engine, despite their braggadocio about Honda vs Renault since then.
My point was that without red bull, the Renault engine wouldn't have a hope of winning a race. Looking at McLaren and Renault results you would hardly say the engine looks like a race winning one would you? Of course it's possible Renault will make a huge step up next year both engine and chassis for the works team but it's probably rather unlikely I'd say. Is the Honda going to be better than the Renault engine? Hard to say as only one team is running it this season and they have been struggling to be middle-tier for years no matter what engine - but bear in mind that Red Bull waited until the last possible moment before committing to Honda for next year (and they would have had full access to the raw stats from Toro Rosso). Not exactly a sign of confidence in a clearly better engine, despite their braggadocio about Honda vs Renault since then.
If the Honda PU really does have 60bhp more than the Renault - and I've only heard that claim come out of Christian Horner's mouth - then that would put it very close to the Mercedes and Ferrari in terms of power. I doubt it's anywhere near those in terms of driveability or reliability though.
thegreenhell said:
And if Mercedes didn't have a works team, but instead were just engine suppliers to Force India and Williams, then that wouldn't look like such a great engine either.
If the Honda PU really does have 60bhp more than the Renault - and I've only heard that claim come out of Christian Horner's mouth - then that would put it very close to the Mercedes and Ferrari in terms of power. I doubt it's anywhere near those in terms of driveability or reliability though.
I've heard it called a jewel too.If the Honda PU really does have 60bhp more than the Renault - and I've only heard that claim come out of Christian Horner's mouth - then that would put it very close to the Mercedes and Ferrari in terms of power. I doubt it's anywhere near those in terms of driveability or reliability though.
Red bulls problem is, however bad the renault may be, thats at least partly their own fault for not working more closely to improve and integrate the PU; Instead we see the opposite with them gobbing off continuously and simply demanding better. It's no accident the 2 best performing teams are wholly integrated engine/chassis, interestingly this is where mclaren were correct in their ideas that they needed to be a works team but they too failed in the execution of integrating with the engine supplier, so I struggle to see that red bull are going to have more success with honda than they did with renault.
Honda have taken a big step forward this season, and perhaps the relationship with McLaren had soured during their last year together, but the Honda engine in the Toro Rosso certainly looked and performed like a different unit than when it was in the back of a McLaren.
Perhaps Honda have come to terms with the fact that they had to change the way that they went about things if they were to stop embarrassing themselves on a global stage every fortnight for nine months of the year.
As for Renault, having downsized their engine department during the years when they dominated the sport with Red Bull, they were always going to be on the back foot going into the brave new world of turbo V6's and hybrid powertrains. Even in a Red Bull chassis, they lacked both performance and reliability, and they still lag behind Ferrari and Mercedes. The Red Bull's superior aerodynamics and chassis has flattered the Renault power unit, and Renault have invested heavily to try to drag their works team towards the front, and narrow the gap.
If Honda can make the kind of progress over the coming winter as they managed a year ago, they could put Red Bull on terms with Mercedes and Ferrari, who are now in the "diminishing returns" phase of power unit development.
As always in Formula 1, the winners are those who have worked hardest, and interpreted the rules better than the others - the teams with the most talented engineers and lawyers.
Perhaps Honda have come to terms with the fact that they had to change the way that they went about things if they were to stop embarrassing themselves on a global stage every fortnight for nine months of the year.
As for Renault, having downsized their engine department during the years when they dominated the sport with Red Bull, they were always going to be on the back foot going into the brave new world of turbo V6's and hybrid powertrains. Even in a Red Bull chassis, they lacked both performance and reliability, and they still lag behind Ferrari and Mercedes. The Red Bull's superior aerodynamics and chassis has flattered the Renault power unit, and Renault have invested heavily to try to drag their works team towards the front, and narrow the gap.
If Honda can make the kind of progress over the coming winter as they managed a year ago, they could put Red Bull on terms with Mercedes and Ferrari, who are now in the "diminishing returns" phase of power unit development.
As always in Formula 1, the winners are those who have worked hardest, and interpreted the rules better than the others - the teams with the most talented engineers and lawyers.
thegreenhell said:
And if Mercedes didn't have a works team, but instead were just engine suppliers to Force India and Williams, then that wouldn't look like such a great engine either.
.
Fair point but Renault are the works team after all not Red Bull. They should in theory be the strongest of the teams running the engine due to integration etc and yet they are nowhere near Red Bull so I think it's fair to say RB are winning races despite the Renault engine..
Red Bull, Mercedes and Ferrari all spend in the region of $300M per year on the chassis side, which is at least double what the likes of even Renault and McLaren can spend. Renault may be a factory team, but remember they are only a couple of years into rebuilding a team that had little or no investment into it for several years under previous ownership. Even throwing money at the team wouldn't get them back up to the front overnight.
Dermot O'Logical said:
Honda have taken a big step forward this season, and perhaps the relationship with McLaren had soured during their last year together, but the Honda engine in the Toro Rosso certainly looked and performed like a different unit than when it was in the back of a McLaren.
Perhaps Honda have come to terms with the fact that they had to change the way that they went about things if they were to stop embarrassing themselves on a global stage every fortnight for nine months of the year.
As for Renault, having downsized their engine department during the years when they dominated the sport with Red Bull, they were always going to be on the back foot going into the brave new world of turbo V6's and hybrid powertrains. Even in a Red Bull chassis, they lacked both performance and reliability, and they still lag behind Ferrari and Mercedes. The Red Bull's superior aerodynamics and chassis has flattered the Renault power unit, and Renault have invested heavily to try to drag their works team towards the front, and narrow the gap.
If Honda can make the kind of progress over the coming winter as they managed a year ago, they could put Red Bull on terms with Mercedes and Ferrari, who are now in the "diminishing returns" phase of power unit development.
As always in Formula 1, the winners are those who have worked hardest, and interpreted the rules better than the others - the teams with the most talented engineers and lawyers.
The first time the engine ran in the 'correct' configuration, similar to Ferrari and Mercedes was either very late 2016 or early 2017. As such it was, to all intents and purposes, a brand new engine with associated teething and reliability troubles. McLaren should have realised this and stopped complaining and got on with working with Honda. As this season has gone on the Honda engine has been systematically improved in the Toro Rosso and it's quite possible that it will be at least on par, if not better than the Renault in the back of the McLaren, all while paying Renault handsomely for their engine and losing out on Honda's vast technological input and investment. Great job Zac!Perhaps Honda have come to terms with the fact that they had to change the way that they went about things if they were to stop embarrassing themselves on a global stage every fortnight for nine months of the year.
As for Renault, having downsized their engine department during the years when they dominated the sport with Red Bull, they were always going to be on the back foot going into the brave new world of turbo V6's and hybrid powertrains. Even in a Red Bull chassis, they lacked both performance and reliability, and they still lag behind Ferrari and Mercedes. The Red Bull's superior aerodynamics and chassis has flattered the Renault power unit, and Renault have invested heavily to try to drag their works team towards the front, and narrow the gap.
If Honda can make the kind of progress over the coming winter as they managed a year ago, they could put Red Bull on terms with Mercedes and Ferrari, who are now in the "diminishing returns" phase of power unit development.
As always in Formula 1, the winners are those who have worked hardest, and interpreted the rules better than the others - the teams with the most talented engineers and lawyers.
MissChief said:
The first time the engine ran in the 'correct' configuration, similar to Ferrari and Mercedes was either very late 2016 or early 2017. As such it was, to all intents and purposes, a brand new engine with associated teething and reliability troubles. McLaren should have realised this and stopped complaining and got on with working with Honda. As this season has gone on the Honda engine has been systematically improved in the Toro Rosso and it's quite possible that it will be at least on par, if not better than the Renault in the back of the McLaren, all while paying Renault handsomely for their engine and losing out on Honda's vast technological input and investment. Great job Zac!
It's almost as though Mclaren are just seeking a short term solution to their problems. Rather than committing to the development and bringing the Honda engine on, especially given the massive cash injection they were getting, they've taken the short term route of putting another engine in the car and hoping that instantly got them up the grid again. Now that hasn't worked they seem completely lost, are they hoping next year than bringing in Norris to replace Vandoorne will move them up the grid with at least one car? Or are they going to accept he may need a year to settle in and get the best out of what's already a s
t situation. I wouldn't be surprised by 2021 if Mclaren don't have either Sainz or Norris in the car and they're still at the back of the grid with the wrong engine. 
Renault lump nearly wins again. Who would have thought you could outdrag a mercedes and ferrari up that hill and pass at the first corner.
The assumption seems to be that if the Renault car is so slow its because of the engine but its just they and mclaren cant exploit the engine fully.
Good luck next year red bull and try to be nice to your partners.
The assumption seems to be that if the Renault car is so slow its because of the engine but its just they and mclaren cant exploit the engine fully.
Good luck next year red bull and try to be nice to your partners.
turbomoped said:
Renault lump nearly wins again. Who would have thought you could outdrag a mercedes and ferrari up that hill and pass at the first corner.
The assumption seems to be that if the Renault car is so slow its because of the engine but its just they and mclaren cant exploit the engine fully.
Good luck next year red bull and try to be nice to your partners.
DRS assisted and the RB still has the best aero, good downforce/drag ratio.The assumption seems to be that if the Renault car is so slow its because of the engine but its just they and mclaren cant exploit the engine fully.
Good luck next year red bull and try to be nice to your partners.
MissChief said:
turbomoped said:
Renault lump nearly wins again. Who would have thought you could outdrag a mercedes and ferrari up that hill and pass at the first corner.
The assumption seems to be that if the Renault car is so slow its because of the engine but its just they and mclaren cant exploit the engine fully.
Good luck next year red bull and try to be nice to your partners.
DRS assisted and the RB still has the best aero, good downforce/drag ratio.The assumption seems to be that if the Renault car is so slow its because of the engine but its just they and mclaren cant exploit the engine fully.
Good luck next year red bull and try to be nice to your partners.
Paul Di Resta said something interesting after the race in Brazil. Apparently word in the paddock is that all teams are expecting to take a hit in terms of downforce numbers for 2019 due to the new regs- except Red Bull. He implied that Red Bull are seeing similar numbers to this years'.
Gaz. said:
HustleRussell said:
Paul Di Resta said something interesting after the race in Brazil. Apparently word in the paddock is that all teams are expecting to take a hit in terms of downforce numbers for 2019 due to the new regs- except Red Bull. He implied that Red Bull are seeing similar numbers to this years'.
Because they are the only team not governed by the CFD limits.I will have a guess for your amusement
‘Not governed by the CFD limits’. Does that mean that;
-they have more computing / engineering resource in aero than other teams
or
-they currently have the potential to run a load more clean downforce which will be unaffected by 2019 changes but choose not to because Tag Heuer
or
-some regulated limit which applies to other teams does not apply to Red Bull or they have a work-around
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