Red bull and Honda

[coppice]

Be that as it may , as it were, I rather doubt if the lads and lasses down Swindon way will be booking a charabanc to Silverstone this year or wearing Verstappen T shirts ...

I rather doubt anybody at Honda except their marketing team believe theyr'e in F1 to develop their hybrid technology . Why would you, in the straitjacket of current F1 rules which effectively require every team to use more or less the same engine ? And car , come to that...

Honda won their last GP (as Mugen ) in '96 - and what a contrast that era was... we'd never even heard a V10 of any description before '89..

Edited by coppice on Tuesday 19th February 18:39

[markcoznottz]

coppice said:

Be that as it may , as it were, I rather doubt if the lads and lasses down Swindon way will be booking a charabanc to Silverstone this year or wearing Verstappen T shirts ...

I rather doubt anybody at Honda except their marketing team believe theyr'e in F1 to develop their hybrid technology . Why would you, in the straitjacket of current F1 rules which effectively require every team to use more or less the same engine ? And car , come to that...

Honda won their last GP (as Mugen ) in '96 - and what a contrast that era was... we'd never even heard a V10 of any description before '89..

Edited by coppice on Tuesday 19th February 18:39

Got to feel sorry for Honda, one lucky win for button in the modern era. And then to have mugen win more races than them is embarrassing quite honestly. Still could be worse, could be Toyota, or BMW, hang on they had a lucky win of thier own so it wasn't completely wasted. How those teams spent so much $$$ is unreal.

[tmk2]

coppice said:

Be that as it may , as it were, I rather doubt if the lads and lasses down Swindon way will be booking a charabanc to Silverstone this year or wearing Verstappen T shirts ...

I rather doubt anybody at Honda except their marketing team believe theyr'e in F1 to develop their hybrid technology . Why would you, in the straitjacket of current F1 rules which effectively require every team to use more or less the same engine ? And car , come to that...

Honda won their last GP (as Mugen ) in '96 - and what a contrast that era was... we'd never even heard a V10 of any description before '89..

Edited by coppice on Tuesday 19th February 18:39

Didn't Button won in' 06 at Hungary I think a Honda?

[Vaud]

Supersam83 said:

Well with this news https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47287386 what does it mean for Honda in F1?

They can't close their only car factory in Europe and then continue to plough billions into an F1 program can they?

I remember last time when the recession of 2008 hit car companies hard and they were the 1st to switch off the F1 funding tap...

Yes they can. They aren't just closing Swindon, they are closing a Turkish plant as well to consolidate all manufacturing to Japan.

[JonChalk]

tmk2 said:

Didn't Button won in' 06 at Hungary I think a Honda?

BAR-Honda, but yes.

[TheDeuce]

I don't get the link here at all. Honda moving their operations back to their home turf, as I understand it, is to reduce per unit manufacturing costs, making them more competitive, in the end to hopefully sell more cars. No part of that should have any effect on their keenness to remain relevant and involved in F1.

What is very relevant to this thread I think is that the 2019 PU does appear far more competitive than before, and no reliability issues so far. It's looking like RB made a good choice to swap, and so long as they have a stronger season than they did in 2018, there is no reason they wouldn't want to keep working with Honda either.

I see plenty of good in this partnership for RB fans. The drivers seem pretty happy so far, it's all looking to be good, so far as we can see right now.

[Composite Guru]

TheDeuce said:

I don't get the link here at all. Honda moving their operations back to their home turf, as I understand it, is to reduce per unit manufacturing costs, making them more competitive, in the end to hopefully sell more cars. No part of that should have any effect on their keenness to remain relevant and involved in F1.

What is very relevant to this thread I think is that the 2019 PU does appear far more competitive than before, and no reliability issues so far. It's looking like RB made a good choice to swap, and so long as they have a stronger season than they did in 2018, there is no reason they wouldn't want to keep working with Honda either.

I see plenty of good in this partnership for RB fans. The drivers seem pretty happy so far, it's all looking to be good, so far as we can see right now.

That’s because RB actually want to help Honda and work together to make a race winning package.
Mclaren just wanted them to turn up with a perfect engine and reap all the benefits with little input.
I think a lot of people are going to be very surprised with the partnership. Something RB and Renault never had.

[Sixpackpert]

Composite Guru said:

That’s because RB actually want to help Honda and work together to make a race winning package.
Mclaren just wanted them to turn up with a perfect engine and reap all the benefits with little input.
I think a lot of people are going to be very surprised with the partnership. Something RB and Renault never had.

Because they have no other option than to help them to make it work.

Red Bull we’re fine with Renault when they were winning their championships.

[mcholeboy_59]

JonChalk said:

BAR-Honda, but yes.

It was just Honda in '06.

[TheDeuce]

Sixpackpert said:

Because they have no other option than to help them to make it work.

Red Bull we’re fine with Renault when they were winning their championships.

I think the cooperation with Renault stalled a little when they entered the sport as a team themselves.

I agree they would help anyone making their engine, to make it as good as possible. But that can only work if the supplier really does want you to have a better engine..

I would also say, over the decades Honda engineering has produced some of the finest, most reliable and advanced road car engines out there - many of which were well over a decade ahead of their European counterparts. Who knows how much of that can translate to the engineers working on the F1 engines, but at least it's known that somewhere in the company there are some very good engineering brains.

I think Honda will get there, and in time could probably match Ferrari power and reliability. Mercedes might be a tougher challenge as the truth is, at least at present, they can drop any amount of money into their engine development program anytime they wish.

[Oi_Oi_Savaloy]

Has anyone seen the live testing? How does the red bull look? Quick? On the pace?

I gather that Honda have had outside help (ilmor) - I think they chose to go down the hcci route - does the engine sound/look strong enough to compete?

[TheDeuce]

Oi_Oi_Savaloy said:

Has anyone seen the live testing? How does the red bull look? Quick? On the pace?

I gather that Honda have had outside help (ilmor) - I think they chose to go down the hcci route - does the engine sound/look strong enough to compete?

I've been watching and apart from spinning off the track in a somewhat questionable way yesterday, it looks to drive very well.

Also timings look great compared to last year and the driver's seem positive. Certainly reliability is looking vastly better, 200+ laps and no mechanical issues!! Try doing that in last year's car! All they needed to compete last year was better reliability and a little more speed - it looks like they have both now.

No improvement to sound from last year for any of the cars sadly.

[JonChalk]

mcholeboy_59 said:

It was just Honda in '06.

Apologies all, failing memory in old age.

[F1GTRUeno]

tmk2 said:

coppice said:

Be that as it may , as it were, I rather doubt if the lads and lasses down Swindon way will be booking a charabanc to Silverstone this year or wearing Verstappen T shirts ...

I rather doubt anybody at Honda except their marketing team believe theyr'e in F1 to develop their hybrid technology . Why would you, in the straitjacket of current F1 rules which effectively require every team to use more or less the same engine ? And car , come to that...

Honda won their last GP (as Mugen ) in '96 - and what a contrast that era was... we'd never even heard a V10 of any description before '89..

Edited by coppice on Tuesday 19th February 18:39

Didn't Button won in' 06 at Hungary I think a Honda?

Not to mention Hill winning in '98 in between those two.

[coppice]

God above ,my anorak is deserting me ..how can I have forgotten Button and Hill's wins ? Haven't forgotten the first time heard a Honda V10 though , in 89. The 80s turbos actually sounded pretty damn good but the NA Honda V10 removed what little wax remained in my ears after I'd heard the Ferrari V12 ...

[isaldiri]

F1GTRUeno said:

Not to mention Hill winning in '98 in between those two.

And frentzen in 99 with 2 wins iirc.

[markcoznottz]

isaldiri said:

F1GTRUeno said:

Not to mention Hill winning in '98 in between those two.

And frentzen in 99 with 2 wins iirc.

They were mugen hondas though? All four mugen Honda wins were fortuitous though, for different reasons. Shows how hard it was even then to be successful in F1.

[thegreenhell]

markcoznottz said:

They were mugen hondas though? All four mugen Honda wins were fortuitous though, for different reasons. Shows how hard it was even then to be successful in F1.

They were still Hondas, originally designed by Honda then handed over to Mugen to run and develop. Also, IIRC, Mugen was run by Mr Honda's son.

[TheDeuce]

thegreenhell said:

They were still Hondas, originally designed by Honda then handed over to Mugen to run and develop. Also, IIRC, Mugen was run by Mr Honda's son.

So the back story there...

Mugen is not Honda, however, Honda is Mugen kinda...

Yes, the son setup Mugen, so the family connection is solid. And the son was of course another 'Mr Honda' so it kind of is Honda. Same blood, if you like.

What is really interesting is that when his father passed away, Hirotoshi (Mugen owner) became the majority shareholder of Honda. So He effectively controls both, and has done since the 90's iirc.

I know this from a misspent youth playing around with CRX's and S2000's.

The key thing, is that both father and son started their businesses from a background in tuning and racing. So not only are the 2 companies linked by family/name and now, ownership - even if they were separate it's still the same passion, and of course the passion in the son came from the father in this case. You can trace it all back to Soichiro Honda one way or another, pick your own route.

One final interesting thing for Honda fans. Honda is I think the only mainstream Japanese auto maker that was started from scratch by a person passionate about cars. The others were all manufactured out of necessity, simply because the money was there to start a car company division of a larger global group of companies. Soichiro Honda simply progressed from fiddling with racing cars to making his own cars, and then mainstream cars. And personally I think that until his death in the 90's, the cars had a little more soul than the other Japanese brands. The key thing he did in relation to F1, was to ensure a focus was always placed on engine technology during his control of Honda. That's why back in the mid 90's, Ford and Vauxhall were advertising their 'new 16v' engines as if it were cutting edge technology. Despite the fact the engines were still steel and at heart around 20 years old already. In 1989 however, Honda were putting out the fist all aluminium 16v engines, with dual cams and if specified, VTEC (variable valve timing and lift), and fully electronic, programmable fuel injection. They were ahead of Europe/US by around 20 years at that point, and ahead of their Japanese counterparts too.

So it's always worth keeping in mind, that not only do Honda have a solid history in engine design, but that the company is today controlled by the son, a guy who started his own life/company developing tuning solutions for Honda cars. So the passion, albeit detached in the corporate world, is still actually there at the very top. And I'm sure he wants to see his engines fly in F1 as much as anyone.

You just have to try and force out of your mind all the crap cars they make for old people

Edited by TheDeuce on Saturday 23 February 21:39

Edited by TheDeuce on Saturday 23 February 23:04

Edited by TheDeuce on Saturday 23 February 23:05

[slipstream 1985]

TheDeuce said:

thegreenhell said:

They were still Hondas, originally designed by Honda then handed over to Mugen to run and develop. Also, IIRC, Mugen was run by Mr Honda's son.

So the back story there...

Mugen is not Honda, however, Honda is Mugen kinda...

Yes, the son setup Mugen, so the family connection is solid. And the son was of course another 'Mr Honda' so it kind of is Honda. Same blood, if you like.

What is really interesting is that when his father passed away, Hirotoshi (Mugen owner) became the majority shareholder of Honda. So He effectively controls both, and has done since the 90's iirc.

I know this from a misspent youth playing around with CRX's and S2000's.

The key thing, is that both father and son started their businesses from a background in tuning and racing. So not only are the 2 companies linked by family/name and now, ownership - even if they were separate it's still the same passion, and of course the passion in the son came from the father in this case. You can trace it all back to Soichiro Honda one way or another, pick your own route.

One final interesting thing for Honda fans. Honda is I think the only mainstream Japanese auto maker that was started from scratch by a person passionate about cars. The others were all manufactured out of necessity, simply because the money was there to start a car company division of a larger global group of companies. Soichiro Honda simply progressed from fiddling with racing cars to making his own cars, and then mainstream cars. And personally I think that until his death in the 90's, the cars had a little more soul than the other Japanese brands. The key thing he did in relation to F1, was to ensure a focus was always placed on engine technology during his control of Honda. That's why back in the mid 90's, Ford and Vauxhall were advertising their 'new 16v' engines as if it were cutting edge technology. Despite the fact the engines were still steel and at heart around 20 years old already. In 1989 however, Honda were putting out the fist all aluminium 16v engines, with dual cams and if specified, VTEC (variable valve timing and lift), and fully electronic, programmable fuel injection. They were ahead of Europe/US by around 20 years at that point, and ahead of their Japanese counterparts too.

So it's always worth keeping in mind, that not only do Honda have a solid history in engine design, but that the company is today controlled by the son, a guy who started his own life/company developing tuning solutions for Honda cars. So the passion, albeit detached in the corporate world, is still actually there at the very top. And I'm sure he wants to see his engines fly in F1 as much as anyone.

You just have to try and force out of your mind all the crap cars they make for old people

Edited by TheDeuce on Saturday 23 February 21:39

Edited by TheDeuce on Saturday 23 February 23:04

Edited by TheDeuce on Saturday 23 February 23:05

Many moons ago I remember a max power magazine interview someone who owned a modifying garage. They asked him what he next big thing would be. "Hondas" he said I know they are driven by old people but they are about to hit the market big. And he was right