Leclerc, Vettel & Ferrari 2019

Leclerc, Vettel & Ferrari 2019

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Discussion

thegreenhell

4,860 posts

155 months

Thursday 29th November
quotequote all
cb1965 said:
It was his ability to find a way to drive round a car's inherent issues that was the most impressive. There are two notable stories, one told by Berger and one by Benetton engineers.

Berger's is the most interesting. In 1995 Schumacher coasted to his second WC with Benetton and at the end of the season went to Ferrari with Berger coming the other way. The first thing Berger did was jump in the WC winning B195 car at the next test to find out how good it felt to drive a WC car. After a good few laps he came back and altered the set up and went back out.... this was repeated several times before Berger ultimately reported the car as impossible to get a lap time from. When shown the data from Schumacher he just shook his head and said something along the lines of 'I can't do that with this car'.
I also seem to remember him having a massive crash at Estoril when he first tested the B195, or was that Alesi who made the same move from Ferrari to Benetton?

Meanwhile, when Schumacher tested the '95 Ferrari he reportedly expressed surprise that its drivers hadn't won the world championship in the car...

HustleRussell

15,460 posts

96 months

Thursday 29th November
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
HustleRussell said:
As we speak Leclerc is topping the timesheet in Abu Dhabi and is probably close to 100 miles in the 2018 Ferrari if he hasn't exceeded that already.

He has proven to be an adaptable driver, getting on top of the Sauber over the first few races of this season and performing consistently thereafter.

Leclerc has fantastic pedigree including being godson to Jules Bianci so probably has more F1 nous than people expect.

Vettel is especially good in qualifying but I can imagine Leclerc pressuring him quite quickly. How Vettel responds to that is the making of the man. He can't repeat his flounce over Ricciardo.
WTF difference does that make?!
That’s... a question?
I thought it’s be obvious but hey ho…

Leclerc has followed in Jules’ footsteps since they were kids in karting. Jules was ultimately on his way to Ferrari. A few years later Charles is treading a very similar path. If you are saying that Charles won’t have benefitted from watching Jules’ progression into F1 and towards Ferrari then you are obviously wrong.

HustleRussell said:
Muzzer79 said:
More comedy gold.

"'Ere! Vettel! Get your cards, you're out. LeClerc has driven less than 50 laps in the car but he's topping the meaningless test session at the end of the season.

What do you mean why are you out? Didn't you know? Old Charlie is godson to Jules Bianchi - you can't hold a candle to a gift like that old son.

In other news, you should know that we're replacing Maurizio Arrivabene with the manager from the local Londis because he's also Stoffel Vandoorne's window cleaner"
Who are you quoting and what is your source?
Also pardon me for dealing in facts. My point is that the final race of the 2018 season was a day or two ago and the first race of the 2019 season is 15 weeks away and Leclerc is already racking up serious mileage in Rosso Corsa.


Exige77

2,965 posts

127 months

Thursday 29th November
quotequote all
I think it might be a little early to confirm Leclerc as the new messiah.

He’s looked good this season and made good progress but it’s a big step up to one of the front running teams with a 4 time WDC team mate.

I will watch with interest and wish him well but it’s far from a done deal.

rdjohn

3,009 posts

131 months

Thursday 29th November
quotequote all
TobyTR said:
Nico Rosberg said an interesting quote:

''The difference between each driver in Formula 1, from the best to the worst, is about 0.3-0.4 seconds a lap (or Hamilton to Bottas 0.6sec wink ). From the best car to the worst car, I guess it's two seconds or one-and-a-half seconds... so make a percentage with that... performance is about 20 percent driver, and 80 percent car.''
I think at the highest level, the likes of Lewis, Max, Seb, Danny and yes Nico, the difference in lap time, in equal equipment, would be minuscule over say 10 fast laps. I think that Seb has been shocked this year by the margin to Lewis, just as he was shocked when Danny rolled-up at RB. My feeling is that if LeClerc, puts him under real pressure next year he will just retire.

Nico realised that to beat Lewis he had to raise his game mentally, and when he won his WDC albeit with some bad luck for Lewis, he decided he did not want to continue.

I suspect that the level that Lewis has shown this year against Valteri has truly rocked him mentally - especially when he was forced to give up his possible win in Sotchi.

I think that this is probably true in most sports. I don’t think that Federer is necessarily stronger, fitter, or more accurate than Murray, but mentally, he is much tougher.

I guess Seb could be happy with his wife, kids and $millions in the bank.

London424

11,323 posts

111 months

Thursday 29th November
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
London424 said:
There was a piece in the last week about qualifying times...Bottas was <2 tenths slower then Hamilton...that's it. The difference between WC and getting slated for underperforming (1 lap pace, not race pace).
Um, can you say Singapore?
Of course there are much bigger examples, likewise Bottas beat Lewis a few times too. The analysis was across the entire year of qualifying.

eta: https://twitter.com/karunchandhok/status/106771121...

that's the data.

Edited by London424 on Thursday 29th November 12:15

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turbomoped

461 posts

19 months

Thursday 29th November
quotequote all
A much as its fashionable (and fun) to beat up on Vettel at the moment he has won ROC in equal cars 8 years out of the 8 he entered.
Did Vettel drive in this test? If he did he would be mental to try his hardest. Save that for the last minute of quali.

Exige77

2,965 posts

127 months

Thursday 29th November
quotequote all
Vettel was soundly beaten by Hamilton this year but it still makes him one of the best of current crop.

He’s had a bit of a bashing and needs to regroup mentally over the winter. Sure he’ll be back with a bang next year.

Muzzer79

2,498 posts

123 months

Thursday 29th November
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
HustleRussell said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
HustleRussell said:
As we speak Leclerc is topping the timesheet in Abu Dhabi and is probably close to 100 miles in the 2018 Ferrari if he hasn't exceeded that already.

He has proven to be an adaptable driver, getting on top of the Sauber over the first few races of this season and performing consistently thereafter.

Leclerc has fantastic pedigree including being godson to Jules Bianci so probably has more F1 nous than people expect.

Vettel is especially good in qualifying but I can imagine Leclerc pressuring him quite quickly. How Vettel responds to that is the making of the man. He can't repeat his flounce over Ricciardo.
WTF difference does that make?!
That’s... a question?
I thought it’s be obvious but hey ho…

Leclerc has followed in Jules’ footsteps since they were kids in karting. Jules was ultimately on his way to Ferrari. A few years later Charles is treading a very similar path. If you are saying that Charles won’t have benefitted from watching Jules’ progression into F1 and towards Ferrari then you are obviously wrong.
If you are seriously suggesting that watching someone's progression into F1 tangibly benefits your own progress as a driver then I'm stunned.

It will help in respect of knowing how the game works and who key players are but it won't make you any faster on the track.


HustleRussell said:
HustleRussell said:
Muzzer79 said:
More comedy gold.

"'Ere! Vettel! Get your cards, you're out. LeClerc has driven less than 50 laps in the car but he's topping the meaningless test session at the end of the season.

What do you mean why are you out? Didn't you know? Old Charlie is godson to Jules Bianchi - you can't hold a candle to a gift like that old son.

In other news, you should know that we're replacing Maurizio Arrivabene with the manager from the local Londis because he's also Stoffel Vandoorne's window cleaner"
Who are you quoting and what is your source?
Also pardon me for dealing in facts. My point is that the final race of the 2018 season was a day or two ago and the first race of the 2019 season is 15 weeks away and Leclerc is already racking up serious mileage in Rosso Corsa.
And?

Doing 50 laps in a post-season test is meaningless, as are his times.

He's there to get a feel for the car, that's all.

Christ people, the guy has had one season in a Sauber and some have him as the next multiple WDC.

He could be the next Schumacher but he has equal chance of being the next Jean Alesi at the moment.


turbomoped said:
A much as its fashionable (and fun) to beat up on Vettel at the moment he has won ROC in equal cars 8 years out of the 8 he entered.
Fun as the ROC is, it's measure as a test of driver skill is debatable at best.

Remember; Heikki Kovalainen comprehensively won it in 2004, beating Schumacher and Loeb in the process, and he didn't set the F1 world on fire.

It's end of year fun, like a professional footballer playing a bit of 5 a side with some colleagues.





HustleRussell

15,460 posts

96 months

Thursday 29th November
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
HustleRussell said:
HustleRussell said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
HustleRussell said:
As we speak Leclerc is topping the timesheet in Abu Dhabi and is probably close to 100 miles in the 2018 Ferrari if he hasn't exceeded that already.

He has proven to be an adaptable driver, getting on top of the Sauber over the first few races of this season and performing consistently thereafter.

Leclerc has fantastic pedigree including being godson to Jules Bianci so probably has more F1 nous than people expect.

Vettel is especially good in qualifying but I can imagine Leclerc pressuring him quite quickly. How Vettel responds to that is the making of the man. He can't repeat his flounce over Ricciardo.
WTF difference does that make?!
That’s... a question?
I thought it’s be obvious but hey ho…

Leclerc has followed in Jules’ footsteps since they were kids in karting. Jules was ultimately on his way to Ferrari. A few years later Charles is treading a very similar path. If you are saying that Charles won’t have benefitted from watching Jules’ progression into F1 and towards Ferrari then you are obviously wrong.
If you are seriously suggesting that watching someone's progression into F1 tangibly benefits your own progress as a driver then I'm stunned.

It will help in respect of knowing how the game works and who key players are but it won't make you any faster on the track.
:facepalm:

Doesn’t it help that I explicitly said “F1 nous”?

Muzzer79 said:
HustleRussell said:
HustleRussell said:
Muzzer79 said:
More comedy gold.

"'Ere! Vettel! Get your cards, you're out. LeClerc has driven less than 50 laps in the car but he's topping the meaningless test session at the end of the season.

What do you mean why are you out? Didn't you know? Old Charlie is godson to Jules Bianchi - you can't hold a candle to a gift like that old son.

In other news, you should know that we're replacing Maurizio Arrivabene with the manager from the local Londis because he's also Stoffel Vandoorne's window cleaner"
Who are you quoting and what is your source?
Also pardon me for dealing in facts. My point is that the final race of the 2018 season was a day or two ago and the first race of the 2019 season is 15 weeks away and Leclerc is already racking up serious mileage in Rosso Corsa.
And?

Doing 50 laps in a post-season test is meaningless, as are his times.

He's there to get a feel for the car, that's all.

Christ people, the guy has had one season in a Sauber and some have him as the next multiple WDC.

He could be the next Schumacher but he has equal chance of being the next Jean Alesi at the moment.
Again, obvious, I have never made any such preditions or parallels, I am merely pointing out to people who may not know that Leclerc is already gaining considerable seat time in the current Ferrari.


ELUSIVEJIM

4,595 posts

87 months

Thursday 29th November
quotequote all
Going by a few news articles about Vettel stating 2018 has taken a lot out of him its sounds very much like Rosberg at the end of 2016.

I really think Vettel has been broken by Hamilton again this year and he is ripe for the taking by LeClerc.

It is too soon to say how good LeClerc will be but Vettel really needs to be much more mentally strong for 2019 with Hamilton and a teammate who will put a lot of pressure on him.

The way Vettel and Hamilton were acting at the end of this season was too nice.

Hamilton knows he has Vettel covered and I think Vettel knows that too.

Vettel would need the Ferrari to be a lot faster than Hamilton in 2019 but also hope his teammate is not the next big star.

Edited by ELUSIVEJIM on Thursday 29th November 15:26

angrymoby

806 posts

114 months

Thursday 29th November
quotequote all
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Going by a few news articles about Vettel stating 2018 has taken a lot out of him its sounds very much like Rosberg at the end of 2016.

I really think Vettel has been broken by Hamilton again this year
almost like he's been bludgeoned or 'hammered' all season

surprised the Merc PR machine hasn't used the hammer connection more ...considering it's past connection to the old AMG W124

LDN

5,832 posts

139 months

Thursday 29th November
quotequote all
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Going by a few news articles about Vettel stating 2018 has taken a lot out of him its sounds very much like Rosberg at the end of 2016.

I really think Vettel has been broken by Hamilton again this year and he is ripe for the taking by LeClerc.

It is too soon to say how good LeClerc will be but Vettel really needs to be much more mentally strong for 2019 with Hamilton and a teammate who will put a lot of pressure on him.

The way Vettel and Hamilton were acting at the end of this season was too nice.

Hamilton knows he has Vettel covered and I think Vettel knows that too.

Vettel would need the Ferrari to be a lot faster than Hamilton in 2019 but also hope his teammate is not the next big star.

Edited by ELUSIVEJIM on Thursday 29th November 15:26
Agreed. Vettel will be thinking as much about Leclerc over the winter, as Hamilton. I’m very excited about the Ferrari pairing. I think it’ll be on a par with 2007; maybe not quite, but close.

cb1965

2,573 posts

81 months

Thursday 29th November
quotequote all
LDN said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Going by a few news articles about Vettel stating 2018 has taken a lot out of him its sounds very much like Rosberg at the end of 2016.

I really think Vettel has been broken by Hamilton again this year and he is ripe for the taking by LeClerc.

It is too soon to say how good LeClerc will be but Vettel really needs to be much more mentally strong for 2019 with Hamilton and a teammate who will put a lot of pressure on him.

The way Vettel and Hamilton were acting at the end of this season was too nice.

Hamilton knows he has Vettel covered and I think Vettel knows that too.

Vettel would need the Ferrari to be a lot faster than Hamilton in 2019 but also hope his teammate is not the next big star.

Edited by ELUSIVEJIM on Thursday 29th November 15:26
Agreed. Vettel will be thinking as much about Leclerc over the winter, as Hamilton. I’m very excited about the Ferrari pairing. I think it’ll be on a par with 2007; maybe not quite, but close.
I reckon Hamilton will have looked at that test time from Leclerc and thought 'YES!' biggrin

Sa Calobra

27,434 posts

147 months

Thursday 29th November
quotequote all
I hope LeClerc does come good. My gut feel is he won't though. Kimi wasn't that far off Vettel this season and they dumped him for the next great hope. He will be good but not 'that' good.

Vettels comment did strike me as hamo has drained him.


OFORBES

Original Poster:

72 posts

36 months

Friday 30th November
quotequote all
Leclerc will undoubtably have his work cut out to out perform Vettel over the entire season, but the prospect of seeing how it all unfolds is exciting.

The 2019 season is probably one of the most exciting seasons to look forward to for a long time. Not only the Leclerc vs Vettel, but also the arrival of Norris, Russel and Kubica back in a race seat, not to mention Danill Kyvat being back at Toro Rosso for the 3rd time!

LDN

5,832 posts

139 months

Friday 30th November
quotequote all
OFORBES said:
Leclerc will undoubtably have his work cut out to out perform Vettel over the entire season, but the prospect of seeing how it all unfolds is exciting.

The 2019 season is probably one of the most exciting seasons to look forward to for a long time. Not only the Leclerc vs Vettel, but also the arrival of Norris, Russel and Kubica back in a race seat, not to mention Danill Kyvat being back at Toro Rosso for the 3rd time!
Agreed. 2019 will be a classic. Don’t forget Gasly! Could be a surprise.

OFORBES

Original Poster:

72 posts

36 months

Friday 30th November
quotequote all
LDN said:
OFORBES said:
Leclerc will undoubtably have his work cut out to out perform Vettel over the entire season, but the prospect of seeing how it all unfolds is exciting.

The 2019 season is probably one of the most exciting seasons to look forward to for a long time. Not only the Leclerc vs Vettel, but also the arrival of Norris, Russel and Kubica back in a race seat, not to mention Danill Kyvat being back at Toro Rosso for the 3rd time!
Agreed. 2019 will be a classic. Don’t forget Gasly! Could be a surprise.
Oops! Yes, Gasly has been impressive this year and thoroughly wiped the floor with (the sometimes unlucky) Hartley. Will be interesting to see how he works alongside Verstappen next year.

I'd love to see him get the better of Max...

Muzzer79

2,498 posts

123 months

Friday 30th November
quotequote all
LDN said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Going by a few news articles about Vettel stating 2018 has taken a lot out of him its sounds very much like Rosberg at the end of 2016.

I really think Vettel has been broken by Hamilton again this year and he is ripe for the taking by LeClerc.

It is too soon to say how good LeClerc will be but Vettel really needs to be much more mentally strong for 2019 with Hamilton and a teammate who will put a lot of pressure on him.

The way Vettel and Hamilton were acting at the end of this season was too nice.

Hamilton knows he has Vettel covered and I think Vettel knows that too.

Vettel would need the Ferrari to be a lot faster than Hamilton in 2019 but also hope his teammate is not the next big star.

Edited by ELUSIVEJIM on Thursday 29th November 15:26
Agreed. Vettel will be thinking as much about Leclerc over the winter, as Hamilton. I’m very excited about the Ferrari pairing. I think it’ll be on a par with 2007; maybe not quite, but close.
Vettel will be thinking what all the top level drivers think: he is the best driver, next year will be his year and that his team-mate (LeClerc) will be beaten.

You do not get to this level without having the utmost self-belief.

rdjohn

3,009 posts

131 months

Friday 30th November
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
Vettel will be thinking what all the top level drivers think: he is the best driver, next year will be his year and that his team-mate (LeClerc) will be beaten.

You do not get to this level without having the utmost self-belief.
While I wholly agree with you proposition, I did feel that by the end of this season he did seem to be asking himself “What do I have to do, to beat this guy?”

I have believed that Lewis was a cut above the rest when I saw him win GP2. When Ron gave him a chance to prove himself, and he immediately did, I thought he walked on water. But with the great benefit of hindsight, you can now see that Lewis had certain weaknesses, that were seriously challenged by Nico. It was possibly a slight lack of self-belief.

But since the second half of this year, it’s like the back-tattoo proclaims - he has risen up to a new height.

So, I don’t think it will be Vettel that kicks him off that plateau, unless the Mercedes is seriously flawed next year. I do believe that the next world champion will be from the next generation, Ocon, Max, Gasley, or LeClerc.

Max has that same self-belief that Schumacher had, so I think it will be him - but probably not powered by a Honda.

If Vettel is beaten by LeClerc, I think he will probably leave at the end of 2020.

EDLT

15,056 posts

142 months

Friday 30th November
quotequote all
rdjohn said:
While I wholly agree with you proposition, I did feel that by the end of this season he did seem to be asking himself “What do I have to do, to beat this guy?”
If he is asking himself such questions, he'll be looking at problems within the Ferrari team rather than anything he's done wrong. He was doing quite well in the first half of the season.