Alonso's legacy?

Alonso's legacy?

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anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 13th December 2018
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TobyTR said:
cb1965 said:
If you are going to discuss the career of a driver and try and assess his position in the list of all time greats you need to include the bad with the good. For instance there is no discussion around Singapore 2008 or his at times frosty relationship with teammates outside of Hamilton. The McLaren part of the story omits certain events etc. The Ferrari section seems to conveniently forget how often he aired his dirty laundry in public and that by the time he left many at Ferrari wanted him gone. He's a brilliant driver, but flawed in his people management skills, Schumacher and Hamilton both handle(d) that side of things infinitely better... and both have a lot more titles than him!
What certain events does the McLaren chapter omit?

Granted, there isn't a chapter on Singapore 2008, but perhaps that's because Alonso was cleared of involvement and what else is there to say on the matter, without risking a lawsuit for the journalist.

The negatives were included, Part three, dirty laundry: "After the race, an Italian TV interviewer asked him what he wanted for his birthday. He replied: "La macchina degli altri" - meaning someone else's car.

"Di Montezemolo was livid. He arranged for a press release to be put out the following day - Alonso's actual birthday - saying he had phoned his driver to wish him a happy birthday, but also to "tweak his ear" for his "latest comments"."

Di Montezemolo: "Sometimes for me it was necessary to work on him to avoid a situation where some declarations, some ideas, started because he wanted to win, [and] could create problems in the team.

"I disagree when somebody says: 'Alonso is a driver that destroys, no, creates troubles in the team.' No. For sure, the biggest difference between Michael Schumacher and Alonso is that Michael in the best and in the worst moments was always very, very close to the team.

"Fernando is a guy that in comparison with Michael is more concentrated on himself than on the atmosphere of the team. This doesn't mean he is not good for the team. But I was obliged to work a lot with him on his mind, on his attitude. Because for him it was more easy to make criticisms. Not outside, but inside the team sometimes, when it is better to be more close with the team to avoid somebody in the team going: 'Oh, but Alonso is not happy.'

"Fernando was not against the team. Not. But in the worst moments he was more looking at himself, [he had] more doubts: 'What do I have to do? Maybe my race driving is not at the best. Maybe the engine designer…' More conscious of himself than the team."

He was more doubtful regarding the overall competitiveness of the team, but always, always very strong, very pushing, trying to do from himself the maximum even in the difficult conditions." smile

Massa may have not seen eye-to-eye with Alonso, but in Massa's own words he was a tougher teammate to beat than M.Schumacher, (watch N.Roebuck interview). Jenson Button had no issues with Fernando when they were teamates... So that's just Hamilton and at brief times Massa.

All five chapters are heavily quoted by those high-up in F1; that makes it objective.

Domenicali, Di Montezemolo and Ferrari engineers still speak highly of Alonso. How this year panned out they'd probably rather have him leading the team than Vettel, for instance.

Hamilton's people-management skills are flawed too. He even publically denies to journalists having had PR training, when he most certainly has. Hamilton relies on race engineers to solve problems in races and come up with solutions - "Team, just tell me what I need to do?", and "There have also been noticeable occasions when Hamilton's results were compromised by an apparent need sometimes to lean on the team for decisions a driver of his greatness should have been able to make himself."

But Alonso does that himself.

Andrea Stella, Ferrari race engineer: "Our collaboration over the years was very positive. He was relaxed and open to our ways of working at Ferrari. I think he is much cleverer than me. In the race I'd say "we need to do something" and he would come back with an answer I'd never have thought of. And he could do it while driving."

I wonder if people read the articles posted at times.
You wonder if I read the articles? LOL

To be honest you're not exactly understanding the meaning of objective so I think this conversation is futile, but here's a quandary for you.... if you only choose to quote those that support your view how is that objective? Hint... it's not!

PS Do you really truly and honestly believe a man of Alonso's obvious intelligence and racing guile knew nothing about Singapore 2008? Really??? rolleyes

Muzzer79

9,805 posts

186 months

Thursday 13th December 2018
quotequote all
TobyTR said:
All five chapters are heavily quoted by those high-up in F1; that makes it objective.
Your obvious bias means you are not interpreting the article correctly.

Having quotes "by those high-up in F1" does not make it objective.

I could post an article saying what a great idea Brexit is and how remaining in the EU is foolish, quoting those high up in the Government.
However, unless I present a balanced view from the other side, it is not objective.

The articles by Benson are intended as a celebration of Alonso's career - a summary of what he achieved. He, at best, skirts the negative aspects of his personality.

TobyTR

1,068 posts

145 months

Thursday 13th December 2018
quotequote all
All articles are heavily quoted and do weigh-up the positives and negatives. READ parts 3, 4 and 5 again - all of it.

Better still, how about you post or even write a published article yourself with quotes from F1 industry bods countering the articles... Peak PistonHeads nonsense yet again - folk on here arguing with factual quotes from team principals and engineers... Not much I can help you with if you choose to disagree with Di Montezemolo and others etc.

Ah, but you know better than Benson and team principals, right? Haha.

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 14th December 2018
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Oh put your toys back in the pram and chill out. You need to realise that just quoting from people who agree with your point of view does not make anything objective.

FK

161 posts

63 months

Friday 14th December 2018
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Evening all,

There is no doubt in my mind that Mr Alonso is a truly quality driver, with so may results to chose from to substantiate this claim. I still am very impressed with how he dragged that 2012 Ferrari into championship contention.

However, some of his decision making, and his temperament, I have a few question marks over.

I think his legacy, as some have already alluded to, will be of a driver that gave his maximum every time he got into the car. Fortunately in items like this, numbers do not tell the whole story.

It would be a shame if he left F1 full of regret, because winning 2 titles and coming close of 3 other occasions is nothing to be ashamed of. To some, Nigel Mansell endeared himself to people far more when he narrowly lost out on titles, than when he steamrolled the 1992 Season with a Williams that was head, shoulders, knees and toes above the competition.

Having said all of this, everyone has a shelf life, and hopefully people will thank him what what he achieved, and look forward to the next big talent

TobyTR

1,068 posts

145 months

Sunday 16th December 2018
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cb1965 said:
Oh put your toys back in the pram and chill out. You need to realise that just quoting from people who agree with your point of view does not make anything objective.
So when are you going to post a well-written article with quotes to back up your argument...

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 17th December 2018
quotequote all
TobyTR said:
cb1965 said:
Oh put your toys back in the pram and chill out. You need to realise that just quoting from people who agree with your point of view does not make anything objective.
So when are you going to post a well-written article with quotes to back up your argument...
Maybe I already have!

TobyTR

1,068 posts

145 months

Monday 17th December 2018
quotequote all
cb1965 said:
TobyTR said:
cb1965 said:
Oh put your toys back in the pram and chill out. You need to realise that just quoting from people who agree with your point of view does not make anything objective.
So when are you going to post a well-written article with quotes to back up your argument...
Maybe I already have!
Post it up then... wink

All you've done on this thread so far is disagree with the quotes from Domenicali, Di Montezemolo and F1 engineers with no substance to back it up, because you seem to think you know better than them, haha.

Tell us again how Parts 1 and 2 are incorrect, according to you...


Edited by TobyTR on Monday 17th December 20:50

TKH

395 posts

188 months

Tuesday 18th December 2018
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Excellent driver
Childish temper
Selfish
Nice selection of birds
Lots of cash in bank
2 F1 titles

Edited by TKH on Tuesday 18th December 09:52

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 18th December 2018
quotequote all
TobyTR said:
cb1965 said:
TobyTR said:
cb1965 said:
Oh put your toys back in the pram and chill out. You need to realise that just quoting from people who agree with your point of view does not make anything objective.
So when are you going to post a well-written article with quotes to back up your argument...
Maybe I already have!
Post it up then... wink

All you've done on this thread so far is disagree with the quotes from Domenicali, Di Montezemolo and F1 engineers with no substance to back it up, because you seem to think you know better than them, haha.

Tell us again how Parts 1 and 2 are incorrect, according to you...


Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 17th December 20:50
You are entirely missing my point, while the quotes from the various F1 luminaries may well be valid they do not tell the complete story, that's all I am saying. As I said at the start of these exchanges I think Alonso is a brilliant driver, but he is not quite as portrayed in that series of articles. If you disagree then fair enough, but I doubt whatever I post up will change your mind so I'm leaving it there.

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 18th December 11:48

TobyTR

1,068 posts

145 months

Tuesday 18th December 2018
quotequote all
Fill us in on the complete story then... You're giving us the impression that you know more than Andrew Benson, David Tremayne and the team principals. So enlighten us wink

A44RON

483 posts

95 months

Wednesday 19th December 2018
quotequote all
cb1965 said:
You are entirely missing my point, while the quotes from the various F1 luminaries may well be valid they do not tell the complete story, that's all I am saying. As I said at the start of these exchanges I think Alonso is a brilliant driver, but he is not quite as portrayed in that series of articles. If you disagree then fair enough, but I doubt whatever I post up will change your mind so I'm leaving it there.

Edited by cb1965 on Tuesday 18th December 11:48
Textbook flounce.

Fortitude

492 posts

191 months

Friday 21st December 2018
quotequote all
turbomoped said:
LP670 said:
Muzzer79 said:
Fortitude said:
Fernando Alonso BEAT Michael Schumacher, in the Overall World FIA F1 Driver standings, while Michael was still driving at Ferrari.

This culminated in end of Michael Schumacher’s career at Ferrari.

In doing so, Fernando Alonso became FIA F1 World Champion twice.

SO, for me, personally, the legacy of Fernando Alonso, was the manner in which he ‘retired’ Michael Schumacher from Ferrari.
It’s tenuous, at best, to claim that he ended Schumacher’s career at Ferrari.

Schumacher went because Ferrari had to look to the future, in the form of Kimi Raikkonen at the time, not because Alonso beat him to the title.
But why did they look at Raikkonen in the first place? Because they felt he could do a better job against Alonso than Schumacher was maybe?

Schumacher did not want to retire in 2006 and only did so because he felt like he was being pushed out of Ferrari by losing his unchallenged No.1 status within the team. FWIW i think Michael would have beat Raikonnen in a straight fight but maybe he didn't want to risk his reputation going into unchartered waters.
Interesting and seems like the situation Vettel finds himself in now although he has no Ferrari titles behind him so its a wonder he has maintained the status for so long.
FIRSTLY, I have ONLY just read the replies this evening, so thank you for the discussion.

So, Muzzer79, Losing two World Championships to Fernando Alonso, changed Michael Schumacher’s status at Ferrari, started the 'cracks' in his persona and status change at Ferrari…

LP670, Thank you for explaining that status change at Ferrari, which for Michael Schumacher’s ego, must have been awful…

Turbomoped, Maybe Sebastian Vettel has made more friends at Ferrari, than Michael Schumacher did?