Arrivederci Arrivebene

Arrivederci Arrivebene

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Discussion

LaurasOtherHalf

14,201 posts

133 months

Tuesday 8th January
quotequote all
realjv said:
What did Arrivabene do wrong? He lacked the ability to lead and inspire. What he saw as leadership, many of those around him took as bullying.

That's is very strong statement from the normally reserved Mark Hughes.

My only question is why did it take 4 years? Marchionne wasn't one to be indecisive.
Up until hockenheim, it looked from the outside to be working?

tigerkoi

2,328 posts

135 months

Tuesday 8th January
quotequote all
LaurasOtherHalf said:
realjv said:
What did Arrivabene do wrong? He lacked the ability to lead and inspire. What he saw as leadership, many of those around him took as bullying.

That's is very strong statement from the normally reserved Mark Hughes.

My only question is why did it take 4 years? Marchionne wasn't one to be indecisive.
Up until hockenheim, it looked from the outside to be working?
My perspective which I alluded to earlier in the thread was really timing: Marchionne had a lot more going on than worrying about the F1 team. The IPO and general FCA business. Things anyway seemed to be generally progressing upwards for the F1 team so Arrivabene was (at the time) safe. But a) Marchionne planned to be more focussed on Ferrari in semi-retirement which would have inevitably led to closer micro management and b) he didn’t survive to see the drop off in team performance which would have had Arrivabene shot.

Stan the Bat

4,373 posts

149 months

Tuesday 8th January
quotequote all
StevieBee said:
What Ferrari need is some sort of special dispensation.

Something like a say on new regulations, a veto on changes to the regulations, a seat at the table of F1 Corp Ltd, more money than any of the other teams, their own test track..... something like that and they'd be unstoppable!
Nah, that could never happen.

tongue out

LDN

5,923 posts

140 months

Wednesday 9th January
quotequote all
StevieBee said:
What Ferrari need is some sort of special dispensation.

Something like a say on new regulations, a veto on changes to the regulations, a seat at the table of F1 Corp Ltd, more money than any of the other teams, their own test track..... something like that and they'd be unstoppable!
hehe

ELUSIVEJIM

4,611 posts

88 months

Wednesday 9th January
quotequote all
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Up until hockenheim, it looked from the outside to be working?
Exactly.

It's very much like a football sacking.

Manager goes but should it have been the players.


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LaurasOtherHalf

14,201 posts

133 months

Wednesday 9th January
quotequote all
ELUSIVEJIM said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Up until hockenheim, it looked from the outside to be working?
Exactly.

It's very much like a football sacking.

Manager goes but should it have been the players.
Have you read this thread and the links posted within it and come up with that conclusion?

ELUSIVEJIM

4,611 posts

88 months

Wednesday 9th January
quotequote all
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Have you read this thread and the links posted within it and come up with that conclusion?
Vettel was the clear number one driver and blew his chance.

Not just in 2018 but in 2017 as well.

Yes, the team could have done a better job but swap Vettel and Hamilton and the Ferrari would have won.

Vettel's driving mistakes, especially in 2018, were shocking.

The mistakes you expect from a rookie not a Champion.

thegreenhell

Original Poster:

4,924 posts

156 months

Wednesday 9th January
quotequote all
While Vettel certainly made many mistakes on track, the team also made many bad calls, with poor strategy and odd tyre selections, not to mention the way they handled Kimi's departure. They also lost their way with some car developments that didn't work as expected mid-season.

We also don't know what he was having to deal with behind the scenes. While Hamilton was clearly in his comfort zone being pampered by Mercedes, Vettel could have been stuck in the middle of a political minefield, especially with the apparent power struggles within the team after Marchionne passed away. How would Hamilton have coped in that environment?

OFORBES

121 posts

37 months

Wednesday 9th January
quotequote all
If that were the situation inside Ferrari, I think what you elude to might be right, Hamilton might have struggled.

I cant wait to see how Ferrari is going to unfold this year now with this change and Charles Leclerc joining. F1 2019 is going to be an exciting season.

LaurasOtherHalf

14,201 posts

133 months

Wednesday 9th January
quotequote all
ELUSIVEJIM said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Have you read this thread and the links posted within it and come up with that conclusion?
Vettel was the clear number one driver and blew his chance.

Not just in 2018 but in 2017 as well.

Yes, the team could have done a better job but swap Vettel and Hamilton and the Ferrari would have won.

Vettel's driving mistakes, especially in 2018, were shocking.

The mistakes you expect from a rookie not a Champion.
I know you post a lot on the F1 forum but I’m often struck as to either how little you watch the sport or how little you understand it.

ELUSIVEJIM

4,611 posts

88 months

Wednesday 9th January
quotequote all
LaurasOtherHalf said:
I know you post a lot on the F1 forum but I’m often struck as to either how little you watch the sport or how little you understand it.
Just how many times did Vettel blow his chances with mistakes or hitting other drivers?

Azerbaijan - Flat-spotted his tyre which cost him dearly when trying to pass Bottas

France - Extremely clumsy move with Bottas

Austria - 3 place grid penalty in qualifying for impeding Carlos Sainz but was lucky with a Hamilton car issue.

Germany - Driving error again

Hungary - Poor performance in qualifying. Yes, the car wasn't as good in the wet but he was well off the pace.

Italy - Complete brain fade. Rookie move and cost him massively.

Japan - Desperate driving and terrible judgement.

It's not hard to understand.






LaurasOtherHalf

14,201 posts

133 months

Wednesday 9th January
quotequote all
I’ve posted my thoughts in most of those mistakes, there seems little point in repeating myself.

It just seems a very sensationalist point of view to take.

LDN

5,923 posts

140 months

Wednesday 9th January
quotequote all
LaurasOtherHalf said:
I’ve posted my thoughts in most of those mistakes, there seems little point in repeating myself.

It just seems a very sensationalist point of view to take.
I'm not so sure. Vettel has admitted that he wasn't driving his best; and Luca said Ferrari would have won with Hamilton in their car.

tigerkoi

2,328 posts

135 months

Wednesday 9th January
quotequote all
Ferrari were clearly in a mess - organisationally, operationally - when suddenly, Marchionne died.

Hidden deep within every annual FCA report for the last half decade was the following risk: the biggest impediment to FCAs plans was Marchionne’s health.

Now I’ve personally rarely seen that in a report for a conglomerate. It’s extremely rare for a major firm to highlight the integral worth of its top guy as they did.

The difference with Marchionne was that he just wasn’t that another one of those Davos, slick suited, silver bullet, Teflon CEOs on the executive Fortune 500 merrygoround...no. He was genuinely one of the best industrialist managers and leaders out there.

He knew what he was doing.

So now you have an investment bank analysts community that rather than focus on what new things Elkann will do, but whether or not he’ll stick to Marchionnes script - as they expect and think wise. To show how deeply ingrained Marchionnes plans and order was central to the firm’s performance.

Basically, the death of the guy caused a significant jolt within FCA, investors expectations and no less in Ferrari itself. I’m not in the least bit suprised that a bunch of people who probably were kept in whip hand suddenly start to spin off in different directions. Drivers included.

After all, Alonso started to really want out when Montezemolo was ousted. Think what you like about the central characters or “doing your job and driving the car, no excuses”, but relationships, personal agreements count. It’s harder to work in an environment that’s not stable.

The football manager analogy with Arrivabene is a difficult one. Sure some clubs in football, the dynamic is such that swapping out one for another isn’t really a big deal. But look at Man Utd. Mourinho’s corrosive behaviour was toxifying everything around him. But at the right club (Inter, say), he was the right fit, and his attitudes aligned with the clubs view of itself. They won the treble.

Arrivabene doesn’t look, in retrospect, to have had the sufficient and necessary people skills to lead this particular Ferrari F1 team in the way they needed to be led. And anyway, Marchionne was the true boss (of bosses) and the guy who set the tone. And with him gone, maybe factionalism and disagreements which he’d previously quash, came further to the fore. And that doesn’t help team performance at all.


LaurasOtherHalf

14,201 posts

133 months

Wednesday 9th January
quotequote all
LDN said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
I’ve posted my thoughts in most of those mistakes, there seems little point in repeating myself.

It just seems a very sensationalist point of view to take.
I'm not so sure. Vettel has admitted that he wasn't driving his best; and Luca said Ferrari would have won with Hamilton in their car.
Do not get me wrong, VET is not without blame in all of them and I’m certainly not his biggest fan.

But HAM has become the force he is through careful planning and implementation of a successful team strategy.

Mercedes have not just built the most impressive cars and engines of the modern era, they’ve done so with a fresh idea on how the car manufacturer can conquer F1.

From the Mercedes board having a hands off approach, to Wolf having shares, to every single member taking their share of the blame when things go awry.

I’d love to experience a year in management there, the fostering of talent and skills must take some doing but they’ve achieved it all beautifully.

You could maybe argue they need a stronger no2 driver (I wouldn’t) but last year’s Mercedes F1 team are up there with the greatest in sports rich history.

Their achievements are overlooked.

tigerkoi

2,328 posts

135 months

Wednesday 9th January
quotequote all
LaurasOtherHalf said:
LDN said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
I’ve posted my thoughts in most of those mistakes, there seems little point in repeating myself.

It just seems a very sensationalist point of view to take.
I'm not so sure. Vettel has admitted that he wasn't driving his best; and Luca said Ferrari would have won with Hamilton in their car.
Do not get me wrong, VET is not without blame in all of them and I’m certainly not his biggest fan.

But HAM has become the force he is through careful planning and implementation of a successful team strategy.

Mercedes have not just built the most impressive cars and engines of the modern era, they’ve done so with a fresh idea on how the car manufacturer can conquer F1.

From the Mercedes board having a hands off approach, to Wolf having shares, to every single member taking their share of the blame when things go awry.

I’d love to experience a year in management there, the fostering of talent and skills must take some doing but they’ve achieved it all beautifully.

You could maybe argue they need a stronger no2 driver (I wouldn’t) but last year’s Mercedes F1 team are up there with the greatest in sports rich history.

Their achievements are overlooked.
You’re right - the whole Mercedes outfit has been geared thoughtfully, to winning. It’s a winning unit. Like GE in the ‘90s, IBM in the ‘60s, DuPont, ‘80s/90s Chicago Bulls or AC Milan, the ‘70s Steelers etc - all organisations built front to back for sustained winning.

The people dynamic has to be right throughout the organisation top to bottom. A great driver or a spivvy well suited CEO can only paper over the cracks if the fundamental organisation is a complete mess. Hamilton may very well have one the odd race more than Vettel if roles reversed, but a good driver can’t cover over a poor organisational setup or adverse conditions week in week out.

The most successful drivers are merely at the apex of a pyramid of outstanding coordinated effort. Same as in any organisation.