"Sebastian Vettel a 'massively overrated one-trick pony"
Discussion
I have wondered if perhaps Vettel is one of those athletes who has simply peaked young?
It happens a lot. Perhaps now he is a little older he has matured and isn’t as totally focused or open to risk as he might have been in his early 20s. Not that he is now a bad driver by any means but could have lost that last 1% between unstoppable and beatable at this level.
LeClerc on the other hand was like watching Hamilton blast on to the scene I might have a new favourite driver.
It happens a lot. Perhaps now he is a little older he has matured and isn’t as totally focused or open to risk as he might have been in his early 20s. Not that he is now a bad driver by any means but could have lost that last 1% between unstoppable and beatable at this level.
LeClerc on the other hand was like watching Hamilton blast on to the scene I might have a new favourite driver.
I think a bit like Schumacher he benefited from something that lasted a long time.
IN MS's case it was primarily down to him and his hard work, but also an unlimited budget, for... endless testing and a very close relationship with Bridgestone, making tyres developed almost exclusively around one driver and his team, to the detriment of all others who used them.
With Red Bull, Vettel and Newey clearly were at one, the car was built around him, he did what he had to to get away and avoid the DRS zones and won everything as the car was amazing on the bends, very risky but very clever too. And he made it work nearly every time.
AS soon as the goalposts changed and the turbo's came in DR kicked his arse and he ran away to Ferrari where he has been nothing like the same driver since.
He clearly much like Alonso at Ferrari cannot give the team what they want to make the car work for him, their fault and his. But also clearly cannot drive outside of those parameters. I think Lewis maybe can, but then he has had a performance advantage most of his career at Merc.
You feel that Alonso drives to what the cars limit is, Seb has a certain style like MS did, and if it's there he is unbeatable, Lewis is a mix of the two.
IN MS's case it was primarily down to him and his hard work, but also an unlimited budget, for... endless testing and a very close relationship with Bridgestone, making tyres developed almost exclusively around one driver and his team, to the detriment of all others who used them.
With Red Bull, Vettel and Newey clearly were at one, the car was built around him, he did what he had to to get away and avoid the DRS zones and won everything as the car was amazing on the bends, very risky but very clever too. And he made it work nearly every time.
AS soon as the goalposts changed and the turbo's came in DR kicked his arse and he ran away to Ferrari where he has been nothing like the same driver since.
He clearly much like Alonso at Ferrari cannot give the team what they want to make the car work for him, their fault and his. But also clearly cannot drive outside of those parameters. I think Lewis maybe can, but then he has had a performance advantage most of his career at Merc.
You feel that Alonso drives to what the cars limit is, Seb has a certain style like MS did, and if it's there he is unbeatable, Lewis is a mix of the two.
chunder27 said:
You feel that Alonso drives to what the cars limit is, Seb has a certain style like MS did, and if it's there he is unbeatable, Lewis is a mix of the two.
Going from what I've heard MS needed a car that was hard to drive, his trick was taming a tricky car - Don't think the cars are like that anymore given how much data/engineering/understanding that goes into the design of the cars.Dunc.
chunder27 said:
I think a bit like Schumacher he benefited from something that lasted a long time.
IN MS's case it was primarily down to him and his hard work, but also an unlimited budget, for... endless testing and a very close relationship with Bridgestone, making tyres developed almost exclusively around one driver and his team, to the detriment of all others who used them.
With Red Bull, Vettel and Newey clearly were at one, the car was built around him, he did what he had to to get away and avoid the DRS zones and won everything as the car was amazing on the bends, very risky but very clever too. And he made it work nearly every time.
AS soon as the goalposts changed and the turbo's came in DR kicked his arse and he ran away to Ferrari where he has been nothing like the same driver since.
He clearly much like Alonso at Ferrari cannot give the team what they want to make the car work for him, their fault and his. But also clearly cannot drive outside of those parameters. I think Lewis maybe can, but then he has had a performance advantage most of his career at Merc.
You feel that Alonso drives to what the cars limit is, Seb has a certain style like MS did, and if it's there he is unbeatable, Lewis is a mix of the two.
To be fair to Alonso, he drove around the dog Ferraris problems in 2013 and 2014 to over-perform in those cars (annihilated Kimi that year), same could be said in last year's McLaren too. Him, M.Schumacher and Lewis all have that ability to drive around a car's problems and squeeze something out of them.IN MS's case it was primarily down to him and his hard work, but also an unlimited budget, for... endless testing and a very close relationship with Bridgestone, making tyres developed almost exclusively around one driver and his team, to the detriment of all others who used them.
With Red Bull, Vettel and Newey clearly were at one, the car was built around him, he did what he had to to get away and avoid the DRS zones and won everything as the car was amazing on the bends, very risky but very clever too. And he made it work nearly every time.
AS soon as the goalposts changed and the turbo's came in DR kicked his arse and he ran away to Ferrari where he has been nothing like the same driver since.
He clearly much like Alonso at Ferrari cannot give the team what they want to make the car work for him, their fault and his. But also clearly cannot drive outside of those parameters. I think Lewis maybe can, but then he has had a performance advantage most of his career at Merc.
You feel that Alonso drives to what the cars limit is, Seb has a certain style like MS did, and if it's there he is unbeatable, Lewis is a mix of the two.
You make a good point about Vettel possibly losing a couple of percent since having his arse tanned by Ricciardo at Red Bull. Maybe his self-belief has never recovered since then and he no longer believes he is the best like during the n/a V8 d.b.diffuser days with Red Bull that suited his driving style.
I still think he's top-5 on the current grid. Vettel obvs was a bit special when he arrived on the scene and put in impressive performances with BMW-Sauber
TobyTR said:
To be fair to Alonso, he drove around the dog Ferraris problems in 2013 and 2014 to over-perform in those cars (annihilated Kimi that year), same could be said in last year's McLaren too. Him, M.Schumacher and Lewis all have that ability to drive around a car's problems and squeeze something out of them.
You make a good point about Vettel possibly losing a couple of percent since having his arse tanned by Ricciardo at Red Bull. Maybe his self-belief has never recovered since then and he no longer believes he is the best like during the n/a V8 d.b.diffuser days with Red Bull that suited his driving style.
I still think he's top-5 on the current grid. Vettel obvs was a bit special when he arrived on the scene and put in impressive performances with BMW-Sauber
Not sure Ricciardo would acknowledge such activities, doubt they were part of his contract clause at RB You make a good point about Vettel possibly losing a couple of percent since having his arse tanned by Ricciardo at Red Bull. Maybe his self-belief has never recovered since then and he no longer believes he is the best like during the n/a V8 d.b.diffuser days with Red Bull that suited his driving style.
I still think he's top-5 on the current grid. Vettel obvs was a bit special when he arrived on the scene and put in impressive performances with BMW-Sauber
On a serious note, not been commenting too much on these (basically who is faster) topics. Vettel has gone faster than Charles in China FP1 & 2, Bottas beat Hamilton in FP2 and Hamilton spun it as well. Kubica has been faster, Hulk has generally been faster than Ricciardo, but I've not seen many topics where people are hating on him as much as they seemingly love to berate Vettel when DR beat him there at Red Bull.
They are all extremely fast drivers, though I'll agree some are probably a smidge better than others. But with so many variables, driver preferences (towards car handling), car performance differences combined with what I can only guess even minute differences between seemingly identical parts will make a difference in these extremes. Weather, tire choice, wind & temperature and other variables as well as down to how the driver feels that day really emphasises how extremely difficult it is to just simply label driver A vastly superior to driver B.
Regards
MrwReckless said:
TobyTR said:
To be fair to Alonso, he drove around the dog Ferraris problems in 2013 and 2014 to over-perform in those cars (annihilated Kimi that year), same could be said in last year's McLaren too. Him, M.Schumacher and Lewis all have that ability to drive around a car's problems and squeeze something out of them.
You make a good point about Vettel possibly losing a couple of percent since having his arse tanned by Ricciardo at Red Bull. Maybe his self-belief has never recovered since then and he no longer believes he is the best like during the n/a V8 d.b.diffuser days with Red Bull that suited his driving style.
I still think he's top-5 on the current grid. Vettel obvs was a bit special when he arrived on the scene and put in impressive performances with BMW-Sauber
Not sure Ricciardo would acknowledge such activities, doubt they were part of his contract clause at RB You make a good point about Vettel possibly losing a couple of percent since having his arse tanned by Ricciardo at Red Bull. Maybe his self-belief has never recovered since then and he no longer believes he is the best like during the n/a V8 d.b.diffuser days with Red Bull that suited his driving style.
I still think he's top-5 on the current grid. Vettel obvs was a bit special when he arrived on the scene and put in impressive performances with BMW-Sauber
On a serious note, not been commenting too much on these (basically who is faster) topics. Vettel has gone faster than Charles in China FP1 & 2, Bottas beat Hamilton in FP2 and Hamilton spun it as well. Kubica has been faster, Hulk has generally been faster than Ricciardo, but I've not seen many topics where people are hating on him as much as they seemingly love to berate Vettel when DR beat him there at Red Bull.
They are all extremely fast drivers, though I'll agree some are probably a smidge better than others. But with so many variables, driver preferences (towards car handling), car performance differences combined with what I can only guess even minute differences between seemingly identical parts will make a difference in these extremes. Weather, tire choice, wind & temperature and other variables as well as down to how the driver feels that day really emphasises how extremely difficult it is to just simply label driver A vastly superior to driver B.
Regards
37chevy said:
So. 3 races in, 3 races where Ferrari have used team orders to impede Leclerc and help Vettel. 7 points lost for Leclerc, which would have him 3rd in the standings.
How far do Ferrari get into the season before they realise that they might be backing the wrong horse?
they wouldn't allow him to pass in oz, he had mechanical last time out and they fHow far do Ferrari get into the season before they realise that they might be backing the wrong horse?
ked him today yet he's still only a point behind 4xWDC team leader seb. He's a smart kid and knows to play a long game but if marinello take the piss they risk him having his head turned.Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff