Mansell's FW14B 'Red Five' to be auctioned

Mansell's FW14B 'Red Five' to be auctioned

Author
Discussion

JoeDix

10 posts

66 months

Thursday 7th February
quotequote all
I did think that Steve, have spent my time reading and not contributing!

Working backwards, here is a video of the car running at Silverstone for Williams 40th birthday in 2017. It features my colleague, Milan, who said "Please will you make a film of me? My family and friends back in Czech don't believe what I do for my job":

https://photos.app.goo.gl/YokGJ95GVXjS8Vi1A

Let me know if that link doesn't work and I'll upload somewhere else.

When Jonathan (Williams) first approached us about this project, he almost didn't mention the birthday party as it was only 6 months away at the time. It was always going to be a real stretch to have the car running in any kind of competitive configuration but it was achieved in the end.

theJT

273 posts

123 months

Thursday 7th February
quotequote all
JoeDix said:
I did think that Steve, have spent my time reading and not contributing!

Working backwards, here is a video of the car running at Silverstone for Williams 40th birthday in 2017. It features my colleague, Milan, who said "Please will you make a film of me? My family and friends back in Czech don't believe what I do for my job":

https://photos.app.goo.gl/YokGJ95GVXjS8Vi1A

Let me know if that link doesn't work and I'll upload somewhere else.

When Jonathan (Williams) first approached us about this project, he almost didn't mention the birthday party as it was only 6 months away at the time. It was always going to be a real stretch to have the car running in any kind of competitive configuration but it was achieved in the end.
I was fortunate enough to be at that event. Most incredible spectacle I have ever seen. Thank you so much for helping make that happen.

shibby!

860 posts

136 months

Thursday 7th February
quotequote all
Joe, thanks for sharing.

Can you tell us more please. -

Does it run?
What sort of power does it have? Tuned down?
What did the private owner do with it?
How difficult would it be to take this to track - would the owner need a whole team of mechanics just to get it started?
What do most owners of these cars do with them?
If the owner broke a wing, or bent an engine. How difficult would it be to repair?
General servicing?
Tyres?


I have so many questions!!


poosemon

33 posts

137 months

Thursday 7th February
quotequote all
shibby! said:
Joe, thanks for sharing.

Can you tell us more please. -

Does it run?
What sort of power does it have? Tuned down?
What did the private owner do with it?
How difficult would it be to take this to track - would the owner need a whole team of mechanics just to get it started?
What do most owners of these cars do with them?
If the owner broke a wing, or bent an engine. How difficult would it be to repair?
General servicing?
Tyres?


I have so many questions!!
Says full running order, however, isn't this car configured by a particular generation of computer and there is only very limited resources to be able to get it going due to the age of the hardware/software that was used? Seem to remember something along these lines in article about getting the heritage car running a couple of years back.

Amazing car to own, great provenance

cookie1600

1,066 posts

99 months

Thursday 7th February
quotequote all
poosemon said:
Says full running order, however, isn't this car configured by a particular generation of computer and there is only very limited resources to be able to get it going due to the age of the hardware/software that was used? Seem to remember something along these lines in article about getting the heritage car running a couple of years back.
Try running from 2.25s here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oM7yLMHlX4o
Advertisement

DaveTheRave87

1,157 posts

27 months

Thursday 7th February
quotequote all
How do I make this fit the noise restrictions at my local track?

cookie1600

1,066 posts

99 months

Thursday 7th February
quotequote all
DaveTheRave87 said:
How do I make this fit the noise restrictions at my local track?
If you've just paid for the car and team to run it, you'll probably buy the track as well

JoeDix

10 posts

66 months

Thursday 7th February
quotequote all
Ok Shibby, let me see what I can do:

Does it run?

Indeed, see my video link / YouTube for further evidence.

What sort of power does it have? Tuned down?

We didn't actually need to run the chassis on a dyno in the end. I did look to get it run, but came up against various limitations in terms of liability insurance combined with a lack of experience in physically strapping it down with any level of confidence. In the end we decided it wasn't worth the risk.

I'd need to go and look the figures up to be completely accurate, but from memory the original engine ran to something like a 22,000 rpm limit. In this instance, we had to make some decisions that balanced the originality with reliability - obviously in the cars heyday a great deal of the powertrain would have been considered somewhat disposable. We started out with an 18,000 rpm limit and I think this may have increased towards 20,000 rpm for Karun. The bhp figure in the article of around 700 would be accurate.

Part of the reason for slowing the engine is mentioned above and the other is in ensuring the safety of the gear shift - there's a lot of potential for damage in shifting at competition timings, made worse with "inexperienced" drivers.

What did the private owner do with it?

I can't comment on this.

How difficult would it be to take this to track - would the owner need a whole team of mechanics just to get it started?

Yes and no. Part of the work was to ensure that the car was as original as possible, whilst ensuring that we maintained more modern reliability and usability characteristics. In the video I posted you can see how we start the car after the fluids have been warmed with an external heater, the engine can be cranked and you will notice it is cranked for quite a long time - this is so we can monitor the engine parameters on the laptop and establish positive oil pressure. Once this is confirmed we essentially modify the engine map to enable fuel and spark. You can see this is done with a single key press. If you don't do this you could very easily write off the engine.

To answer your question more concisely: yes you need a whole team of mechanics, but now that team only needs 3 people rather than the original 20.

What do most owners of these cars do with them?

Sadly, most owners would store them as appreciating investments / art pieces. Although a reasonable number of them race the cars either on "rich people" track days or compete in things like Boss GP. Weirdly, the owners themselves are sometimes unable to get adequate amendments to their life insurance policies - they are factually too rich to race!

If the owner broke a wing, or bent an engine. How difficult would it be to repair?

I understand your question but it's obviously dependent on what they damage. If you stuff the whole car into the barrier at speed then you're not going to have much left to salvage. Things like engines and gearboxes can be reconditioned and refurbished, but that's more of preventative maintenance rather than repair. You're in a new ballpark for what people would consider 'economical' so a specialist of any kind can be brought in to repair something original rather than replace it.

There is a famous story that I can't remember the details for (which makes it less interesting), I think it was when the race winning Porsche 917 was brought to Goodwood with it's race winning rubber and dirt still intact. Some idiot spectator wrote his name in the dirt, so Porsche sort out an expert in restorative spray painting to paint the dirt back on! The point is, money is no object in the pursuit of perfection.

General servicing?

Just refer to the Haynes Manual..... joke! There is no such thing as general servicing. All of the data is analysed after each run, any consumables are replaced and the mantra of preventative maintenance is practised. It also depends on what's happening to the car next - you might want to schedule an engine rebuild earlier than necessary if you know the car won't be used for the rest of the year.

Tyres?

Again, it really does depend on where it's running and who is driving it. Most amateur drivers would need to run the wet tyres in the dry in order to get any temperature in them at all - and these amateur drivers are not the kind of people you want to be partly responsible for falling off the track!

Exhibition laps it doesn't really matter too much, but there are plenty of compounds around for whatever you need. There is a reasonable amount of business for historic cars. It mainly comes down to the anticipated corner speeds, power output, track temp and stint length.

jamiem555

504 posts

149 months

Thursday 7th February
quotequote all
Fascinating stuff Joe.

Muzzer79

2,582 posts

125 months

Thursday 7th February
quotequote all
CarHabit said:
I’ve not watched F1 for years as I’ve got more interest in paint drying and listening to nails being scraped down blackboards.

However, his book recalls the halcyon days of the mid-1990s F1 with all its heavyweight names and track battles we no longer have today
Ah, the benefit of rose-tinted spectacles.

I watched F1 in the nineties and can remember just as many processional races as there are now. It most certainly wasn't wheel-to-wheel most of the time.

I'd actually say that you have to go back to mid-early 80s when aerodynamics were insufficiently developed to not significantly affect a following car.

cookie1600

1,066 posts

99 months

Thursday 7th February
quotequote all
JoeDix said:
Ok Shibby, let me see what I can do:
Just refer to the Haynes Manual..... joke!
Amazing insight, thanks Joe, but what about:



https://www.grandprixlegends.com/dvds-books/Willia...

I guess I've failed the interview for the wrenching job then?

CarHabit

28 posts

31 months

Thursday 7th February
quotequote all
steveb8189 said:
How do you know if you no longer watch it? Whilst I disagree with the use of DRS it has brought back a lot of the competitive racing.
Muzzer79 said:
Ah, the benefit of rose-tinted spectacles.

I watched F1 in the nineties and can remember just as many processional races as there are now. It most certainly wasn't wheel-to-wheel most of the time.

I'd actually say that you have to go back to mid-early 80s when aerodynamics were insufficiently developed to not significantly affect a following car.
Point of my post - book was good

What people read - I have no legitimacy opining on something I am out of date with

If the racing is as good as people say, I better carve out some time to watch it this year!

The intended point still stands - I thought Adrian Newey’s book a good read


shibby!

860 posts

136 months

Thursday 7th February
quotequote all
Thank you very much Joe.

I appreciate the time and effort in writing that.

It would be a very cool toy for someone

LotusOmega375D

4,070 posts

91 months

Thursday 7th February
quotequote all
To those in the know, the FW14B was the apogee of F1 technology and dominated the season. Someone will be very lucky. It may not sell for as much as many think, since it's not Ferrari red or ex-Senna!

JoeDix

10 posts

66 months

Thursday 7th February
quotequote all
LotusOmega375D said:
To those in the know, the FW14B was the apogee of F1 technology and dominated the season. Someone will be very lucky. It may not sell for as much as many think, since it's not Ferrari red or ex-Senna!
Whilst I agree with you in some respects i.e the F14B is both beautifully styled and was / is incredibly competitive - the absolute weapon of recent history is the Jaguar R5. The level of technology on it (active diff, active throttle, active brakes, active steering etc etc) means it is still devastatingly fast even without a skilled driver and the fact that it came from an era where safety hadn't quite taken over means it's still also frighteningly light

The F14B was the first competitive iteration of active suspension, imagine how advanced it could have got if it wasn't banned so soon!

anniesdad

14,339 posts

176 months

Thursday 7th February
quotequote all
A true icon of F1, seeing it hammering down the straights with sparks akimbo was something to behold.

Probably like a few others on here I had great pleasure in building a 1/18 model kit of this very car way back when. Happy days.

smile

urquattroGus

972 posts

128 months

Thursday 7th February
quotequote all
Wow.

If there was one F1 car for me then this would be it.

Iconic and relatively pure of shape; a world beater.

Pericoloso

37,613 posts

101 months

Thursday 7th February
quotequote all
cookie1600 said:
DaveTheRave87 said:
How do I make this fit the noise restrictions at my local track?
If you've just paid for the car and team to run it, you'll probably buy the track as well
The noise NIMBYs next door are a different proposition.

Muzzer79

2,582 posts

125 months

Thursday 7th February
quotequote all
LotusOmega375D said:
It may not sell for as much as many think, since it's not Ferrari red or ex-Senna!
I was thinking the same

£3m seems a lot for something that isn't a Ferrari and wasn't driven by Senna/Schumacher/insert F1 'legend'*

  • Mansell is arguably a legend, but I'd say more a British legend that a worldwide one like Senna, for example.
I can't imagine Hill's 1996 Williams, for example, getting anywhere near that? The similarities are striking:

Dominant
Newey-designed
Driven by a single-time British F1 world champion

DoubleSix

9,330 posts

114 months

Thursday 7th February
quotequote all
Great to read the contributions fro JoeDix!

Thanks for the insight.