Williams F1

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Discussion

tigerkoi

2,927 posts

197 months

Monday 13th May 2019
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Tyre Smoke said:
I can't understand why they are so short of spares IF there is still money in the bank.
I know the thread has been a great bit of blood sport in analysing just how awfully Williams seem to be run these days but surely you don’t even run a half-pint business by rinsing every last cent in the bank account. Do you?

No serious business could stomach their FD tipping the piggy bank just to pay for a bit of carbon. Then again...

Williams I’d suggest are a firm that has to look at cash flow management more than most - it’s also why they’ve got a revolving credit facility (and one highlighted as a key notice/risk in their annual report as it’s renewal is due with associated dependencies - shortly, IIRC).

Staggered by how long this thread has stayed so immediate - thought we’d done all the issues about 50 pages back! Williams needs to take a leaf out of McLaren’s current manual (them and Zak Brown as everyone’s favourite whipping boys last season) and shut up and keep a low media profile whilst they get their act together!





TheDeuce

21,266 posts

65 months

Monday 13th May 2019
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Tyre Smoke said:
I hear you, and see what you're saying, but we are weeks into the racing season now. How long does it take with 700+ employees to lay up and build a tub? They have the design, they have the spec sheet, making it is the easy, and should be quick, bit.

If it's not money, what is it? They have the staff, they have the tooling, they have the know how. What else could it possibly be?
If you read back a bit there was some debate over how long it takes, including QC and certification. But it's almost as fast to produce 2, or 4 at the same time, so the real puzzle is that after damaging one in pre season, they only built a single spare.

As for the reason, none of us can know. It just seems madness to not have a proper supply of spares. Especially if your car is described as a bit of a handful by the poor sods piloting the thing.

TheDeuce

21,266 posts

65 months

Monday 13th May 2019
quotequote all
tigerkoi said:
I know the thread has been a great bit of blood sport in analysing just how awfully Williams seem to be run these days but surely you don’t even run a half-pint business by rinsing every last cent in the bank account. Do you?

No serious business could stomach their FD tipping the piggy bank just to pay for a bit of carbon. Then again...

Williams I’d suggest are a firm that has to look at cash flow management more than most - it’s also why they’ve got a revolving credit facility (and one highlighted as a key notice/risk in their annual report as it’s renewal is due with associated dependencies - shortly, IIRC).

Staggered by how long this thread has stayed so immediate - thought we’d done all the issues about 50 pages back! Williams needs to take a leaf out of McLaren’s current manual (them and Zak Brown as everyone’s favourite whipping boys last season) and shut up and keep a low media profile whilst they get their act together!
The delayed payment from Stroll was a thing that raised cash flow concerns for me.

It's just maths. They have a huge operation and a tiny budget, it's almost laughable. I think Haas has a similar budget, but about 200 employees. They also don't have support a huge complex for hundreds of staff and massive workshops. Workshops that have so far failed to deliver a home built result even remotely close to what other achieve, even if they just buy in parts.

tigerkoi

2,927 posts

197 months

Monday 13th May 2019
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C Lee Farquar said:
They seem to have done well since the low point of pre season testing.

The cars have been reliable and they've had spares to repair as necessary.

Shortly after posters on here were saying they would be soon be insolvent and wouldn't attract new sponsorship.. they announce sponsorship by The Financial Times. One assumes the FT can conduct robust due diligence and wouldn't want to sponsor a Company about to go into administration.
While I get your sentiment please don’t think companies like the FT (or even Nikkei) have staff lying around who do much in the way of things like due diligence on a sponsorship gig as you may presume! biggrin

Additionally the transaction concerns would more likely be the other way, i.e. you want to sponsor me, so you show me you have the readies...



TheDeuce

21,266 posts

65 months

Monday 13th May 2019
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C Lee Farquar said:
They seem to have done well since the low point of pre season testing.

The cars have been reliable and they've had spares to repair as necessary.

Shortly after posters on here were saying they would be soon be insolvent and wouldn't attract new sponsorship.. they announce sponsorship by The Financial Times. One assumes the FT can conduct robust due diligence and wouldn't want to sponsor a Company about to go into administration.
Oh come on, that sponsorship was almost not worthy of celebrating, it's a tiny deal. And you can bet that it will come with journalist access in FT favour as the Williams situation is financially 'interesting' right now.

I do fully expect they will struggle to secure serious title sponsorship next season, their budget will be trickier than ever and on that tragectory, they will at some point fail unless they turn it around. That doesn't mean I (or by memory anyone else) thought it would happen overnight.

It also wouldn't be the end of the team. It would just force the sale of the team.

Tyre Smoke

23,018 posts

260 months

Monday 13th May 2019
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Definitely. I don't think Williams are overly concerned where any (legal) sponsorship money comes from.

And with regards to money and tub production, if it is as easy to build two three or four as one, why don't you?

What team was it that didn't show up in Australia because they couldn't pay their freight costs? Minardi?

tigerkoi

2,927 posts

197 months

Monday 13th May 2019
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
The delayed payment from Stroll was a thing that raised cash flow concerns for me.

It's just maths. They have a huge operation and a tiny budget, it's almost laughable. I think Haas has a similar budget, but about 200 employees. They also don't have support a huge complex for hundreds of staff and massive workshops. Workshops that have so far failed to deliver a home built result even remotely close to what other achieve, even if they just buy in parts.
Sure, but my point was tuned into anyone believing that even a basket case outfit like Williams would flout cash flow conventions by spending their last buck - as another poster posited.

Williams at 600 or so employees is still relatively small fry in the whole scheme of things but with listings on the likes of Frankfurt will still have proper accountants doing their job (you’d hope!) and I’d be staggered if things were at the negligent/sharp stage - yet.

The Stroll thing was interesting, but could very well have been a case a couple of other considerations:

1) that Stroll Snr, as a “customer” of Williams was just signifying his acute displeasure at their performance (and swayed by son’s incessant whining) and therefore was showing who was the boss - “I’m not paying for this crap...!”; or...

2) like a lot of wealthy guys, there’s paper wealth and there’s liquidity, and even a guy of his means didn’t want to tie up cash funds in a dead project when he secretly was looking at a new opportunity anyway...

C Lee Farquar

4,066 posts

215 months

Monday 13th May 2019
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TheDeuce said:
Oh come on, that sponsorship was almost not worthy of celebrating, it's a tiny deal. And you can bet that it will come with journalist access in FT favour as the Williams situation is financially 'interesting' right now.
So how much is it worth?

TheDeuce

21,266 posts

65 months

Monday 13th May 2019
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Tyre Smoke said:
Definitely. I don't think Williams are overly concerned where any (legal) sponsorship money comes from.

And with regards to money and tub production, if it is as easy to build two three or four as one, why don't you?

What team was it that didn't show up in Australia because they couldn't pay their freight costs? Minardi?
Sticking to the tub question, it's been done to death on this thread. I'm an engineer and queue things through a workshop, a tub is a multi process unit, so the only difference in time no matter how many you make is length of the longest process. No one has so far been able to offer a sensible justification for making just one spare - other than money. But that's almost unbelievable. They support a staff of 700+ but can't afford basic materials?

What has become apparent is that the further you dig down into the Williams situation, the more baffling it becomes. So much makes no sense.

Their own press releases and statements contradict. We're clueless, frankly. Just got to accept they're a bit crap because they're a bit crap right now. Even if we can't understand why. The only certainty is the performance, which is indeed, crap.

TheDeuce

21,266 posts

65 months

Monday 13th May 2019
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C Lee Farquar said:
So how much is it worth?
Who knows or cares. It was for a rear wing endplate...

I doubt very much it's enough to turn the teams fortunes around, so it's probably not worth thinking about.

The fact it's FT pretty much guarantees there will be a deal that gets their guys some access. All press sponsorship works that way. It's not as if anyone is going to learn the FT exists because they saw it on a tiny part of a Williams F1 car that is hardly shown on TV in the first place.

Tyre Smoke

23,018 posts

260 months

Monday 13th May 2019
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Deuce, I totally agree with you.

But having seen quite a few factories (in the meat trade) continue to trade as though nothing was wrong, not trying to cut costs of staff, etc and suddenly going bust virtually overnight, nothing would surprise me.

It matters not what a FD says, all they can do is report to the board the state of the company's financial health. If they want to continue to spend what they haven't got, they will run out of money. Exactly as Caterham did.

tigerkoi

2,927 posts

197 months

Monday 13th May 2019
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TheDeuce said:
Their own press releases and statements contradict. We're clueless, frankly. Just got to accept they're a bit crap because they're a bit crap right now. Even if we can't understand why. The only certainty is the performance, which is indeed, crap.
An unarguable point hehe

Honestly, and I’m sure old Claire must be feeling quite embattled currently, but you’d think that someone talked up as a comms/PR type and having cut their teeth in that game, would seemingly know precisely what to say, and what not to say at times like these. Then again most marketing, comms types are completely useless as soon as things go even a touch off script so maybe she never even had those chops in the first place.

If I was a seasoned sponsor I’d be pretty cheesed off by their poor and inept media performance. Drivers talking with poor body language, no shows from senior staff, dirty linen on show. The only ones paradoxically we might be benefitting are actually RokIt. They’re Mickey Mouse and therefore have zero to lose and all to gain from their non-brand getting TV minutes.

tigerkoi

2,927 posts

197 months

Monday 13th May 2019
quotequote all
Tyre Smoke said:
Deuce, I totally agree with you.

But having seen quite a few factories (in the meat trade) continue to trade as though nothing was wrong, not trying to cut costs of staff, etc and suddenly going bust virtually overnight, nothing would surprise me.

It matters not what a FD says, all they can do is report to the board the state of the company's financial health. If they want to continue to spend what they haven't got, they will run out of money. Exactly as Caterham did.
Sorry, that’s wrong.

In a proper company - not some two Bob outfit on the village parade - it matters significantly what an FD says and does. They are a formal officer of the company. It’s their job. Not just some junior admin.

Try doing that in a proper company, then prepare for jail.

The FD of Autonomy - Sushovan Hussain - learnt that the hard way. Like many others.

TheDeuce

21,266 posts

65 months

Monday 13th May 2019
quotequote all
Tyre Smoke said:
Deuce, I totally agree with you.

But having seen quite a few factories (in the meat trade) continue to trade as though nothing was wrong, not trying to cut costs of staff, etc and suddenly going bust virtually overnight, nothing would surprise me.

It matters not what a FD says, all they can do is report to the board the state of the company's financial health. If they want to continue to spend what they haven't got, they will run out of money. Exactly as Caterham did.
The reason it's always likely that a struggling F1 team will fail overnight, is that the biggest part of their revenue is based on sponsorship. And beyond that, they get F1 money for turning up.

If the sponsorship doesn't come in one year, then no car, or a limited and unsustainable run happens and then they duck out. The sponsorship money ceases, because of course no sponsors will pay for a car that isn't racing. The F1 money will also cease, because they have failed to deliver a car that can race. There is no build up to that moment that we will witness, it will just happen. There is no way they can continue to operate with that size of operation if funding from either source is halted.

We won't have a clue if/when that day might arrive. But it's very obvious that sponsorship income is relative to performance, and Williams are not performing. At some point, that will bite them. On that day, the breakdown will be swift. Someone will probably say this is all guesswork, but honestly, how else can it play out? There is not going to be a queue of healthy sponsors for a slow F1 car.

TheDeuce

21,266 posts

65 months

Monday 13th May 2019
quotequote all
tigerkoi said:
An unarguable point hehe

Honestly, and I’m sure old Claire must be feeling quite embattled currently, but you’d think that someone talked up as a comms/PR type and having cut their teeth in that game, would seemingly know precisely what to say, and what not to say at times like these. Then again most marketing, comms types are completely useless as soon as things go even a touch off script so maybe she never even had those chops in the first place.

If I was a seasoned sponsor I’d be pretty cheesed off by their poor and inept media performance. Drivers talking with poor body language, no shows from senior staff, dirty linen on show. The only ones paradoxically we might be benefitting are actually RokIt. They’re Mickey Mouse and therefore have zero to lose and all to gain from their non-brand getting TV minutes.
Yes you're right I think. It's a very poor deal for any sponsor and the general press coverage of the team does not help. Claire is kind of honest but not in a good way, she displays self doubt. Which is lovely as a person, but not so useful when she also requires millions from a sponsor.

As ever I will qualify my comments by saying it's not an anti Claire thing. She didn't choose to be born in to a future F1 team principal role. She's probably far smarter than many of the marketing folk I deal with.

tigerkoi

2,927 posts

197 months

Monday 13th May 2019
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
tigerkoi said:
An unarguable point hehe

Honestly, and I’m sure old Claire must be feeling quite embattled currently, but you’d think that someone talked up as a comms/PR type and having cut their teeth in that game, would seemingly know precisely what to say, and what not to say at times like these. Then again most marketing, comms types are completely useless as soon as things go even a touch off script so maybe she never even had those chops in the first place.

If I was a seasoned sponsor I’d be pretty cheesed off by their poor and inept media performance. Drivers talking with poor body language, no shows from senior staff, dirty linen on show. The only ones paradoxically we might be benefitting are actually RokIt. They’re Mickey Mouse and therefore have zero to lose and all to gain from their non-brand getting TV minutes.
Yes you're right I think. It's a very poor deal for any sponsor and the general press coverage of the team does not help. Claire is kind of honest but not in a good way, she displays self doubt. Which is lovely as a person, but not so useful when she also requires millions from a sponsor.

As ever I will qualify my comments by saying it's not an anti Claire thing. She didn't choose to be born in to a future F1 team principal role. She's probably far smarter than many of the marketing folk I deal with.
I don’t think you’re anti-Claire at all; it’s just not hard to avoid any other conclusion than that she’s out of her depth. Gender is little to do with it.

In essence it’s actually a real shame. The most high-profile lady in the sport only has the job because of who she is rather than any underlying competence. That must be a real source of frustration for some talented ladies in motorsport I’d hazard. A few years back I saw some of the submissions by the MA students at Coventry on the Automotive Design course. The women seemed to have it from the numbers and their work was deeply impressive. And then you flick on the telly and see you Claire Williams who probably doesn’t know a front wing from George Russell’s leg.

Your intelligence bar for marketing folk must be super low though biggrin

DanielSan

18,745 posts

166 months

Tuesday 14th May 2019
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TheDeuce said:
The reason it's always likely that a struggling F1 team will fail overnight, is that the biggest part of their revenue is based on sponsorship. And beyond that, they get F1 money for turning up.

If the sponsorship doesn't come in one year, then no car, or a limited and unsustainable run happens and then they duck out. The sponsorship money ceases, because of course no sponsors will pay for a car that isn't racing. The F1 money will also cease, because they have failed to deliver a car that can race. There is no build up to that moment that we will witness, it will just happen. There is no way they can continue to operate with that size of operation if funding from either source is halted.

We won't have a clue if/when that day might arrive. But it's very obvious that sponsorship income is relative to performance, and Williams are not performing. At some point, that will bite them. On that day, the breakdown will be swift. Someone will probably say this is all guesswork, but honestly, how else can it play out? There is not going to be a queue of healthy sponsors for a slow F1 car.
With any other team you'd be right, but at the moment there's so much chat about Williams on every media source at each race weekend that sponsoring them this season would weirdly be very cheap for an F1 sponsor and actually generate more coverage than sticking your logo on the side of a Mclaren or Force India.

Mclaren had a new logo on the side of the car this weekend and it's barely been mentioned at all, yet in every F1 race thread on here there's constant Williams discussion and that goes on after the race weekend in this thread.... There's no such thing as bad publicity after all.

Car-Matt

1,923 posts

137 months

Tuesday 14th May 2019
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Today's news is that Latifi is testing today and may replace Bobby K as Bobby K has a clause in his contract saying he can be replaced if the team decide.

Fundoreen

4,180 posts

82 months

Tuesday 14th May 2019
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All a bit tiresome now.
Fans used to vent their frustrations and hopes in a letter page somewhere before now. Mostly supportive that things will improve.
Now its 2019 people offer their outrage and indignation like its something being personally done to themselves.
I fully expect someone in the forum world will write to williams with a list of bullet points they want addressing by friday.
Williams seem to run in a traditional way so I bet they would just tell anyone verbalizing all this nonsense to their faces to foxtrot oscar.

Petrus1983

8,516 posts

161 months

Tuesday 14th May 2019
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Car-Matt said:
Today's news is that Latifi is testing today and may replace Bobby K as Bobby K has a clause in his contract saying he can be replaced if the team decide.
Latifi is around .8sec off RKs qualifying lap from Saturday at the moment. Ironically that puts him closer to RK than RK was to GR.

Eta - does he have a superlicense?