Williams F1

Williams F1

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Discussion

rscott

9,398 posts

138 months

Saturday 28th September
quotequote all
StevieBee said:
Nic Hamilton will not be competing in the last two BTCC races due to 'sponsorship issues'

The only sponsor they have of sufficient means to seemingly cause 'issues' is Rokit

I wonder if they are going to become the new Rich Energy and what impact this would have on Williams?....assuming of course the NH thing does indeed relate to them.
Rokit wasn't the issue - he lost the Duo sponsorship and Rokit stepped in to make up the difference for Knockhill. He couldn't find a replacement so withdrew from the series.

TheDeuce

3,455 posts

13 months

Sunday 29th September
quotequote all
Any clues or insights in to the brake issue today? Obviously when they had examined Russell's car, whatever they found they worried could fail for kubica too.


Lebo44

116 posts

7 months

Sunday 29th September
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Any clues or insights in to the brake issue today? Obviously when they had examined Russell's car, whatever they found they worried could fail for kubica too.
Williams has problems with brakes from the beginning of the season. Probably because they have no clue what is wrong.
https://www.wi77iams.com/rumour-brakes-behind-will...

Kubica's brakes had failure in Singapore. And he has complained about them all the season.
https://streamable.com/tocok
https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/d1c96n/...

Latifi needs to think twice about his sponsorship.

TheDeuce

3,455 posts

13 months

Sunday 29th September
quotequote all
Lebo44 said:
Williams has problems with brakes from the beginning of the season. Probably because they have no clue what is wrong.
https://www.wi77iams.com/rumour-brakes-behind-will...

Kubica's brakes had failure in Singapore. And he has complained about them all the season.
https://streamable.com/tocok
https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/d1c96n/...

Latifi needs to think twice about his sponsorship.
Ahh yes, I remember the delay at least being rumoured to be down to brakes not fitting. I had actually forgotten the same issue was experienced by Kubica at Monza though.

So... whatever solution they rushed through to get the brakes to fit has compromised them in some way - probably. Whatever the whole story is, hopefully next year the car will have reliable brakes! It's one of the basic things most drivers would politely expect their team to deliver smile

TheDeuce

3,455 posts

13 months

Sunday 29th September
quotequote all
https://www.essentiallysports.com/williams-f1-reve...

A glimmer more info on the double DNF - a slightly contradictory article that includes a direct quote from an engineer that backs up the preservation of spare parts theory as the reason Kubica was retired, but then concludes to say Kubica was retired due to fears of a repeat occurrence of the failure.

To be fair, it could be both - GR certainly damaged parts of his car when the brakes failed. Its either both a shortage of spare parts and an embedded brake design issue, or one causing concern for the other. Either way, it does nothing to enhance faith in their ability to field a competitive F1 car. We're nearly at the end of the season and still spare parts remain an issue and instead of further progress (as we have seen some progress) in terms of performance we see reminders of an unfinished basic car underneath frown

What would they have done if bad luck or driver error had caused more damage to spare parts earlier on? Just not raced!? It shouldn't be this tight from race to race. Surely to be 'in F1' you need at least enough spares for all reasonable to imagine eventualities? Even if they're currently only in F1 for the sake of it, to keep the operation alive (which I would understand as they re-structure), they should out of basic professionalism have adequate spare parts by now...

Edited by TheDeuce on Sunday 29th September 23:23

Lebo44

116 posts

7 months

Monday 30th September
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
https://www.essentiallysports.com/williams-f1-reve...

A glimmer more info on the double DNF - a slightly contradictory article that includes a direct quote from an engineer that backs up the preservation of spare parts theory as the reason Kubica was retired, but then concludes to say Kubica was retired due to fears of a repeat occurrence of the failure.

To be fair, it could be both - GR certainly damaged parts of his car when the brakes failed. Its either both a shortage of spare parts and an embedded brake design issue, or one causing concern for the other. Either way, it does nothing to enhance faith in their ability to field a competitive F1 car. We're nearly at the end of the season and still spare parts remain an issue and instead of further progress (as we have seen some progress) in terms of performance we see reminders of an unfinished basic car underneath frown

What would they have done if bad luck or driver error had caused more damage to spare parts earlier on? Just not raced!? It shouldn't be this tight from race to race. Surely to be 'in F1' you need at least enough spares for all reasonable to imagine eventualities? Even if they're currently only in F1 for the sake of it, to keep the operation alive (which I would understand as they re-structure), they should out of basic professionalism have adequate spare parts by now...
Yes, I think it is both - preservation of spare parts and fear of the failure in Kubica's car. It could be that they have written off this season completely and moved all production resources for 2020 car so that they are short on spare parts for the current car. But it's hard to believe they are able to produce competitive car with so many problems with the current one. I mean, they need to work on data and how do they gather this data if current cars are so unreliable. I have a feeling they are not progressing at all.

BrettMRC

1,056 posts

107 months

Monday 30th September
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
https://www.essentiallysports.com/williams-f1-reve...

A glimmer more info on the double DNF - a slightly contradictory article that includes a direct quote from an engineer that backs up the preservation of spare parts theory as the reason Kubica was retired, but then concludes to say Kubica was retired due to fears of a repeat occurrence of the failure.

To be fair, it could be both - GR certainly damaged parts of his car when the brakes failed. Its either both a shortage of spare parts and an embedded brake design issue, or one causing concern for the other. Either way, it does nothing to enhance faith in their ability to field a competitive F1 car. We're nearly at the end of the season and still spare parts remain an issue and instead of further progress (as we have seen some progress) in terms of performance we see reminders of an unfinished basic car underneath frown

What would they have done if bad luck or driver error had caused more damage to spare parts earlier on? Just not raced!? It shouldn't be this tight from race to race. Surely to be 'in F1' you need at least enough spares for all reasonable to imagine eventualities? Even if they're currently only in F1 for the sake of it, to keep the operation alive (which I would understand as they re-structure), they should out of basic professionalism have adequate spare parts by now...

Edited by TheDeuce on Sunday 29th September 23:23
Arrows used to have the same problem/dynamic... they would order, for example, 10 sets of manifolds and then only accept the first 3 - sending the remainder back time and time again claiming they were out of spec. All just a tactic to avoid paying... as soon as they lost one they would magically accept another one or two.

All points to cashflow balancing I think. (Possibly they are trying to reduce spend on the 2019 car to divert R&D/Manufacturing time for 2020 now)

TheDeuce

3,455 posts

13 months

Monday 30th September
quotequote all
I think it's no secret that budget is a big issue for them. The whole spare parts saga does give the impression of being very hand to mouth.

No reason to expect anything different in budget terms next season. If anything after such a very poor year on track it must become harder to find/retain sponsors. Unless they unveil some grand (and believable) turn around plan and find some investment.

What will be interesting is if using purely their in house knowledge and wisdom they can make a marked improvement (evolution) of this year's car. I'd like to think that with the pressure off between seasons the engineers will find ways of working with and improving what they have. It'll never be a 'good car' but at least some sign they're basically good at improving a car would be welcomed.

I suppose the target has to be to just not be last all season in 2020. It's about the lowliest ambition a team can have in F1, I'd like to think they can at least achieve that much.

2fast748

565 posts

142 months

Monday 30th September
quotequote all
What struck me in Russia was when Russell went off the TV cut to the Williams garage and it looked sparse. I think it hit home then how small an operation they are these days.

Lebo44

116 posts

7 months

Monday 30th September
quotequote all
Roberto Chinchero (Motorsport):
A loose wheel (not tightened properly) caused Russell's accident

Source (only in Italian):
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-clamoroso-wil...

Edited by Lebo44 on Monday 30th September 12:46

TheDeuce

3,455 posts

13 months

Monday 30th September
quotequote all
Lebo44 said:
Roberto Chinchero (Motorsport):
A loose wheel (not tightened properly) caused Russell's accident
If that's true, it makes it worse. They had Russell's car back and would have known that before they called Kubica in surely - which would imply that they called him in solely to avoid the possibility of damage, not due to brake issues, but just due to the risks of racing... If that's the position they're in, then honestly, what are they doing there in the first place?

They said they called him in due to risk of running out of spares, and that it made sense as they weren't in contention for points. But they're never in contention for points and apparently just driving round at the back is considered too risky for them!? I hope there is more to it than that, because it's just a laughable situation if that's really the case.

Lebo44

116 posts

7 months

Monday 30th September
quotequote all
found on one F1 blog - analysis of Williams financial report said:
Over the last couple of years WGPE have reported full year revenue which is double the half year amount if you exclude one-off payments, land sale and "one-off partnership income" (Stroll departure fee?).

So that would give revenue of £92m for 2019 down from £122m (after removing the £8m) in 2018, that's a drop of £30m.

H1/H2 Spending
Costs in F1 are incurred (well paid, rather than necessarily incurred) more evenly over the year than might be expected and income is mostly received evenly over the year.

In 2018 H1 Revenue £61 and a £2m loss
In 2019 H1 Revenue £46 and a £20m loss

For all practical purposes the increase in the loss, £18m, is very close to the loss of revenue, £15m give or take a bit.

FY Result
For the full year 2018 Williams reported a £12m profit.
For the full year 2019 Williams would report a £14m loss if the spending profile was the same as 2018.

Remember that in 2018 there was a one off £8m payment, so £2m loss to £12m profit is a £14m change, but subtract the £8m and you get a £6m change.

Prize Money Loss
The prize money loss is less than might be expected as Wiliams get the fixed amount of $35 million and a $10 million classic team payment so it is down only the portion related to finishing position.

If you believe the Internet, then about £20m or less would be the loss in prize money.

Sponsorship
I couldn't work out what RokIT are paying as I never knew how much the Strolls were paying, if anything, so Kubica's money might be more or less and maybe the Rexona deal had performance clauses.
So a very wild guess is that the sponsorship is down by around £10m.

Payroll
In 2018 the payroll costs were £69m up from £63m but this is not broken down between WGPE and WAE. It is worth noting that the highest paid director received £4.4m this may be reducible if the loss would be as big as expected.

Debt
£8.5 million - 4 payments of £0.5m every six months from October 2019 and the remaining £6.5m in October 2021
£1 million - To be paid off by June 2020
£10 million - Revolving Credit available until October 21 2021, currently this is fully used.
£12 million - Overdraft facility, £7million expires in December 2019, the remaining £5 million to be renewed in June each year, about £6.8 million is currently used.

If you look at the Going Concern section of the 2019 interim report you find a suggestion that there may be an inadequate cash flow over the next 16 months and new borrowings may be needed. This depends upon new sponsorship and other expected income not arriving, whilst the need is not certain it is likely enough that is mentioned, which it usually isn't.

This may be of concern as the existing debt has unspecified cash flow covenants

Paddy Lowe
I couldn't find any reference to a severance payment for Paddy Lowe, if one had been made or was expected to be made I would have expected to see it noted, so it may be that the payment was small and just part of the normal payroll process.

WAE
It may be that there is some clever accounting going on with WAE and provision of services to WGPE, if there is then it is not mentioned. Revenue up to £31m from £21m and profit roughly unchanged at £2m.
Edited by Lebo44 on Monday 30th September 12:56

Lebo44

116 posts

7 months

Monday 30th September
quotequote all
Kubica on the level of professionalism in Williams.
Kubica said:
"I haven't been on a lower level than during this weekend since the beginning of my starts (in F1). And I don't mean my driving."
"On Friday after four laps I said something was clearly wrong with the car. Nothing was done by Sunday"
Kubica on his secret goal for this season.
Kubica said:
"I had a goal to finish all races. Disappointing weekend"

budgie smuggler

3,878 posts

106 months

Monday 30th September
quotequote all
Lebo44 said:
Kubica on the level of professionalism in Williams.
Kubica said:
"I haven't been on a lower level than during this weekend since the beginning of my starts (in F1). And I don't mean my driving."
"On Friday after four laps I said something was clearly wrong with the car. Nothing was done by Sunday"
Kubica on his secret goal for this season.
Kubica said:
"I had a goal to finish all races. Disappointing weekend"
That's not good, where did you see/hear that? Wouldn't mind reading/listening to it.

Lebo44

116 posts

7 months

Monday 30th September
quotequote all
budgie smuggler said:
That's not good, where did you see/hear that? Wouldn't mind reading/listening to it.
It was interview for one of the Polish TVs so unfortunately only in Polish. I doubt there is a full transcript of this. Kubica has very good, close relations with few of the polish journalists (as they have been following him from the beginning) and I feel he's more open when talking to them.


Lebo44

116 posts

7 months

Monday 30th September
quotequote all
Russell's onboard during his crash:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1178335721171632129

Good reaction from Russell (see bolded):
"George asks for pace compared to Pierre Gasly. However, he won't get the answer. A few seconds after the restart, in the first corner he drove at a normal pace, as soon as he touches the brake his wheels lock and the Englishman heads straight for the gang. Just before contact, he presses one of the buttons on the steering wheel and takes his hands off it, placing it on his chest."

Edited by Lebo44 on Monday 30th September 14:05

thegreenhell

6,248 posts

166 months

Monday 30th September
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
If that's true, it makes it worse. They had Russell's car back and would have known that before they called Kubica in surely - which would imply that they called him in solely to avoid the possibility of damage, not due to brake issues, but just due to the risks of racing... If that's the position they're in, then honestly, what are they doing there in the first place?
Did they have Russell's car back? During the race the abandoned cars are usually left behind the barrier until the end of the race, as there's no rush to get them patched up for the next session.

In fact, they called Kubica in just one lap later, so there's no way they could have recovered the car and examined it, so it seems a sensible precaution given that they might rightly have suspected a more serious issue than merely a loose wheel, knowing that they've been having ongoing brake issues.

TheDeuce

3,455 posts

13 months

Monday 30th September
quotequote all
Lebo44 said:
found on one F1 blog - analysis of Williams financial report said:
Over the last couple of years WGPE have reported full year revenue which is double the half year amount if you exclude one-off payments, land sale and "one-off partnership income" (Stroll departure fee?).

So that would give revenue of £92m for 2019 down from £122m (after removing the £8m) in 2018, that's a drop of £30m.

H1/H2 Spending
Costs in F1 are incurred (well paid, rather than necessarily incurred) more evenly over the year than might be expected and income is mostly received evenly over the year.

In 2018 H1 Revenue £61 and a £2m loss
In 2019 H1 Revenue £46 and a £20m loss

For all practical purposes the increase in the loss, £18m, is very close to the loss of revenue, £15m give or take a bit.

FY Result
For the full year 2018 Williams reported a £12m profit.
For the full year 2019 Williams would report a £14m loss if the spending profile was the same as 2018.

Remember that in 2018 there was a one off £8m payment, so £2m loss to £12m profit is a £14m change, but subtract the £8m and you get a £6m change.

Prize Money Loss
The prize money loss is less than might be expected as Wiliams get the fixed amount of $35 million and a $10 million classic team payment so it is down only the portion related to finishing position.

If you believe the Internet, then about £20m or less would be the loss in prize money.

Sponsorship
I couldn't work out what RokIT are paying as I never knew how much the Strolls were paying, if anything, so Kubica's money might be more or less and maybe the Rexona deal had performance clauses.
So a very wild guess is that the sponsorship is down by around £10m.

Payroll
In 2018 the payroll costs were £69m up from £63m but this is not broken down between WGPE and WAE. It is worth noting that the highest paid director received £4.4m this may be reducible if the loss would be as big as expected.

Debt
£8.5 million - 4 payments of £0.5m every six months from October 2019 and the remaining £6.5m in October 2021
£1 million - To be paid off by June 2020
£10 million - Revolving Credit available until October 21 2021, currently this is fully used.
£12 million - Overdraft facility, £7million expires in December 2019, the remaining £5 million to be renewed in June each year, about £6.8 million is currently used.

If you look at the Going Concern section of the 2019 interim report you find a suggestion that there may be an inadequate cash flow over the next 16 months and new borrowings may be needed. This depends upon new sponsorship and other expected income not arriving, whilst the need is not certain it is likely enough that is mentioned, which it usually isn't.

This may be of concern as the existing debt has unspecified cash flow covenants

Paddy Lowe
I couldn't find any reference to a severance payment for Paddy Lowe, if one had been made or was expected to be made I would have expected to see it noted, so it may be that the payment was small and just part of the normal payroll process.

WAE
It may be that there is some clever accounting going on with WAE and provision of services to WGPE, if there is then it is not mentioned. Revenue up to £31m from £21m and profit roughly unchanged at £2m.
Edited by Lebo44 on Monday 30th September 12:56
Well, this summary is pretty horrific - to the point cashflow must already be being managed very tightly indeed.

Also a very vicious circle when budget affects performance, and performance is relied upon to get decent levels of sponsorship.

Two years on the row of having a comedy car in F1 is as damaging as I imagined it would be.

I've no real concern of the team/business collapsing though. In the end, if the cash dries up and it becomes inoperable, they will have no option but to sell. Hello Mercedes b team... Goodbye Claire.

TheDeuce

3,455 posts

13 months

Monday 30th September
quotequote all
thegreenhell said:
Did they have Russell's car back? During the race the abandoned cars are usually left behind the barrier until the end of the race, as there's no rush to get them patched up for the next session.

In fact, they called Kubica in just one lap later, so there's no way they could have recovered the car and examined it, so it seems a sensible precaution given that they might rightly have suspected a more serious issue than merely a loose wheel, knowing that they've been having ongoing brake issues.
If that's the case, that would make sense.

budgie smuggler

3,878 posts

106 months

Monday 30th September
quotequote all
Lebo44 said:
It was interview for one of the Polish TVs so unfortunately only in Polish. I doubt there is a full transcript of this. Kubica has very good, close relations with few of the polish journalists (as they have been following him from the beginning) and I feel he's more open when talking to them.
Ah okay, thanks anyway.