Williams F1

Williams F1

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Dermot O'Logical

751 posts

78 months

Friday 27th December 2019
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And when you think that things really can't get any worse for Williams, they seem to have lumbered themselves with Dan Tantrum as some sort of "development" driver.

He must be bringing money from somewhere, but Red Bull dropped him some time ago, and surely nobody with any sense and/or internet access would politely tell him to go forth and multiply if he came sniffing around hoping for a drive.

TheDeuce

3,938 posts

15 months

Friday 27th December 2019
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Dermot O'Logical said:
And when you think that things really can't get any worse for Williams, they seem to have lumbered themselves with Dan Tantrum as some sort of "development" driver.

He must be bringing money from somewhere, but Red Bull dropped him some time ago, and surely nobody with any sense and/or internet access would politely tell him to go forth and multiply if he came sniffing around hoping for a drive.
That's the sitch though... Their performance as an F1 team isn't attracting big enough sponsors these days so they're selling whatever they can - including a dev driver seat - to bridge the gap. I imagine the only reason they took so long to confirm latifi was because they wanted to make absolutely certain there was no chance of a billionaire buying their son a seat instead.

It is what it is however, they have no choice. Other than sell the team, which they won't do until there is literally no other option. There is at least a slight chance that whatever money they've dragged in so far is enough to give them a worthwhile shot at 2021 so just maybe they can get back on top of the sport.. or at least off their backside.

HustleRussell

17,226 posts

109 months

Friday 27th December 2019
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Whatever you think of Ticktum, he’s quick- and I see no downside for Williams having a quick driver in the simulator or eventually sharing with Latifi on Fridays. Historically, Williams has been a team which will take a punt on a quick but unfinished driver.

REALIST123

12,537 posts

102 months

Saturday 28th December 2019
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HustleRussell said:
Whatever you think of Ticktum, he’s quick- and I see no downside for Williams having a quick driver in the simulator or eventually sharing with Latifi on Fridays. Historically, Williams has been a team which will take a punt on a quick but unfinished driver.
Especially if he comes bearing money.

Tyre Smoke

12,825 posts

210 months

Saturday 28th December 2019
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REALIST123 said:
HustleRussell said:
Whatever you think of Ticktum, he’s quick- and I see no downside for Williams having a quick driver in the simulator or eventually sharing with Latifi on Fridays. Historically, Williams has been a team which will take a punt on a quick but unfinished driver.
Especially Only if he comes bearing money.
FTFY

Teddy Lop

2,169 posts

16 months

Saturday 28th December 2019
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HustleRussell said:
Whatever you think of Ticktum, he’s quick- and I see no downside for Williams having a quick driver in the simulator or eventually sharing with Latifi on Fridays. Historically, Williams has been a team which will take a punt on a quick but unfinished driver.
I struggle to relate any decision Williams make today as being that relative in reasoning to what they may have done at the height of their powers.

And flogging off engineering smacks of fire sale to me.

C Lee Farquar

2,631 posts

165 months

Saturday 28th December 2019
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Is there any verified information on what Patrick Head has done or observed since his return?

(I'm not looking to rehash the 'yesterday's man' etc. debate, just interested in his opinion/actions)

Tyre Smoke

12,825 posts

210 months

Saturday 28th December 2019
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I've seen no evidence of his input. However, you have to ask, is that because he's having an influence and they'd be even further behind without him?

TheDeuce

3,938 posts

15 months

Saturday 28th December 2019
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HustleRussell said:
Whatever you think of Ticktum, he’s quick- and I see no downside for Williams having a quick driver in the simulator or eventually sharing with Latifi on Fridays. Historically, Williams has been a team which will take a punt on a quick but unfinished driver.
Quick but unfinished is indeed a good way for any team to grab a bargain for the future. However, due to his reputation (not kicking the lad, but it's a factor in F1) I don't think Williams would have taken him on in their heyday. If it wasn't for the money I don't think they'd take him now either, there are others that could do the dev role as well without the reputation.

The crux is, he paid and they said yes. He does have talent so that's a positive perhaps... But I think it's a bit generous to pretend that Williams made the decision for anything other than financial incentive.

TheDeuce

3,938 posts

15 months

Saturday 28th December 2019
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Tyre Smoke said:
I've seen no evidence of his input. However, you have to ask, is that because he's having an influence and they'd be even further behind without him?
I would assume he's keeping his hand on the rudder, he's got no problems managing people and getting them to work effectively. He's also financially (and passion) motivated to keep the teams head above water as best he can.

Safe pair of hands that likely doesn't need to be there full time but is still able to lead a tight team when he is. I doubt he's going to directly deliver any break through results with the cars evolution into 2020.. but probably is still able to drive the team to perform as best they can with what they have.


andburg

3,397 posts

118 months

Saturday 28th December 2019
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The sale of wae hopefully is to provide investment that will help once caps come in rather than the current car.

Everyone else is spending big so unless Williams do the same they will be stuck at the back for a long time.

TheDeuce

3,938 posts

15 months

Saturday 28th December 2019
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andburg said:
The sale of wae hopefully is to provide investment that will help once caps come in rather than the current car.

Everyone else is spending big so unless Williams do the same they will be stuck at the back for a long time.
No doubt that's the plan, the current car is what it is... I'm sure they'll make some progress for next year but unlikely as much as other teams.

Would be nice to know what they got for WAE as they need a lot of money to compete with the other teams 2021 effort - also, I'm thinking some of the money is needed to get through next year.

Edited by TheDeuce on Saturday 28th December 12:23

rallycross

10,519 posts

186 months

Saturday 28th December 2019
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Tyre Smoke said:
I've seen no evidence of his input. However, you have to ask, is that because he's having an influence and they'd be even further behind without him?
Did he come back, take a good look and realise it’s a basket case and nothing could be done to fix it?

TheDeuce

3,938 posts

15 months

Saturday 28th December 2019
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rallycross said:
Tyre Smoke said:
I've seen no evidence of his input. However, you have to ask, is that because he's having an influence and they'd be even further behind without him?
Did he come back, take a good look and realise it’s a basket case and nothing could be done to fix it?
As of my earlier post, he has a financial interest so no doubt keeps his nose in at least, keeps the engine turning...

They essentially named him to replace Lowe as they couldn't afford anyone else and he was motivated to do his bit when he was asked.

He's a powerful leader, a proven motivator (if perhaps a tad outdated) and a generally positive influence. Do I think he's there 9-5 each day? Nah, he's already retired! Meeting twice a week to give his opinion to heads of departments and maybe the odd 20 minute bking of whoever he feels is letting the side down. That's about all anyone that leaves the sport and then returns under a token role gives. They'll share endless wisdom when required (Lauda..) but they're hardly at the coal front driving progress in terms of modern F1 engineering.

These old hands of the sport are incredibly valuable in terms of inspiration and motivation, no doubt. But the development of a modern F1 car needs someone fully in tune with what is current and what path their competitors are working towards. Williams don't seem to have such a person right now.

C Lee Farquar

2,631 posts

165 months

Sunday 29th December 2019
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TheDeuce said:
They essentially named him to replace Lowe as they couldn't afford anyone else
My reading was that he's there on a short-term consultancy basis. I have great respect for Patrick Head but the one thing that he and FW seem to find impossible is to employ a good technical director.

I don't think we need to waste anytime talking about Sam Michael, Pat Symonds didn't stay long and Paddy Lowe, for whatever reason, didn't work out.



TheDeuce

3,938 posts

15 months

Sunday 29th December 2019
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C Lee Farquar said:
TheDeuce said:
They essentially named him to replace Lowe as they couldn't afford anyone else
My reading was that he's there on a short-term consultancy basis. I have great respect for Patrick Head but the one thing that he and FW seem to find impossible is to employ a good technical director.

I don't think we need to waste anytime talking about Sam Michael, Pat Symonds didn't stay long and Paddy Lowe, for whatever reason, didn't work out.
However they describe heads function, he's the closest thing to a replacement for Lowe. And I doubt very much he's actually all that involved day to day to be honest.

I'd like to believe his return was more about support ing Claire when it comes to the management and business side of the team. I'm sure the engineers and designers know their own jobs and are about as good as in any other team - yet are ultimately scuppered by budget one way or another. No doubt at least part of Lowe's struggle was also budget.

The team has the kind of revenue needed to support the size of business it represents just to pay wages, maintain property etc. There can't be very much loose change left to build and field a set of F1 cars each year. For all we know Lowe's car was late because he was scrabbling for results and being held back each stage endlessly having to argue why the required costs are justified. It's absolutely no secret Williams are cash strapped these days and one way or another that will impact the potential of what anyone heading their design efforts can acheive.

C Lee Farquar

2,631 posts

165 months

Sunday 29th December 2019
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TheDeuce said:
However they describe heads function, he's the closest thing to a replacement for Lowe.
That I didn't know.

TheDeuce

3,938 posts

15 months

Sunday 29th December 2019
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C Lee Farquar said:
TheDeuce said:
However they describe heads function, he's the closest thing to a replacement for Lowe.
That I didn't know.
I say that only because his return was announced after Lowe's departure, and the inference was he was coming in to fill the gap.

My personal suspicion is that he both wanted and was welcomed back as a steady pair of hands in general as the team obviously isn't in the best of shape right now. He owns shares so it's in his interest to help stabilise things, it's in everyone's interests. Stabilise and then start to look for a long term solution to the problems. Just my guess though, not based on fact. I follow Williams fortunes pretty closely and the truth is I've heard bugger all about what he's actually doing/done for them, haven't even heard those such as brundle or DC comment on his function, both of whom are tuned in to paddock talk and normally divulge an overview of who is doing what behind the scenes.

Edited by TheDeuce on Sunday 29th December 22:10

ajprice

16,849 posts

145 months

Wednesday 8th January
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After Kubica taking the PKN Orlen sponsorship with him to Alfa Romeo, Williams have now lost the sponsorship from Rexona, who haven't renewed the contract with them. Tata, Omnitec and Symantec have also stopped their sponsorship. http://www.sportspromedia.com/news/williams-f1-rex...

TheDeuce

3,938 posts

15 months

Wednesday 8th January
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ajprice said:
After Kubica taking the PKN Orlen sponsorship with him to Alfa Romeo, Williams have now lost the sponsorship from Rexona, who haven't renewed the contract with them. Tata, Omnitec and Symantec have also stopped their sponsorship. http://www.sportspromedia.com/news/williams-f1-rex...
This was all predicted (in this thread) following yet another very poor year. The loss of both such major sponsors effectively at the same time is unfortunate though - even with latifi's sponsorship/paid seat basic maths would suggest the team are still short on last year's revenue unless they find another sponsor.

A problem no doubt compounded by the fact that next year they have the same car, albeit evolved slightly, so it's difficult to believe it won't be at the back again. That is a difficult proposition to sell to a sponsor. They get hardly any screen time at the back and when they do it's almost always accompanied by the commentators talking about how much they're struggling.