Discussion
CallMeLegend said:
so many armchair experts on here, I wonder how many actually have ant real experience of what it takes to get an F1 car to the grid
Is that relevant? Others manage it with the same budget and achieve a far better result - that's all you need to know to know something isn't right. Besides which, other than the gearbox questions the Williams discussion is mostly about business reality and the people running it, not specifically the technical aspects of F1.
skwdenyer said:
The minimum level of aero capability to compete in F1 is a huge deal for much of the rest of the world. WAE can do great stuff for non-F1 clients without being at the pinnacle in F1 terms.
There’s a school of thought that says that - especially with the resource caps - one simply *cannot* iterate to the sharp end in F1, because (never mind money) wind tunnels and CFD are rule-constrained.
One instead needs people who “get it” at an almost visceral level.
Back in the day it was said there were only two people who truly understood F1 cars - Adrian Newey and Gordon Murray. Bear in mind the person who told me that was Ed Wood, recently departed Chief Designer at Williams... There are undoubtedly more of those people now, but it isn’t as simple as working harder. Just like drivers, the last few percent is the differentiator.
I agree completely, I employ a good deal of heuristic engineering technique ahead of proving the design - I love working with others on that basis too. But as the original question: What are those 700 people doing? Are there simply not enough that 'get it' and have that sixth sense for what will work and what will not, why do they not have that in greater numbers? Other teams manage more with far less people. Maybe Williams attracts the wrong people? But that doesn't seem likely.. They're a very big name in F1 still. Do they struggle to retain the right people? Is talent forever being identified and then poached by other teams?There’s a school of thought that says that - especially with the resource caps - one simply *cannot* iterate to the sharp end in F1, because (never mind money) wind tunnels and CFD are rule-constrained.
One instead needs people who “get it” at an almost visceral level.
Back in the day it was said there were only two people who truly understood F1 cars - Adrian Newey and Gordon Murray. Bear in mind the person who told me that was Ed Wood, recently departed Chief Designer at Williams... There are undoubtedly more of those people now, but it isn’t as simple as working harder. Just like drivers, the last few percent is the differentiator.
Maybe the people exist but money constraints mean that every idea/improvement is subject to budget scrutiny ahead of going anywhere, gets watered down or simply scrapped altogether rather than take a risk on a new idea - I've worked at places like that before
TheDeuce said:
Is that relevant? Others manage it with the same budget and achieve a far better result - that's all you need to know to know something isn't right. Besides which, other than the gearbox questions the Williams discussion is mostly about business reality and the people running it, not specifically the technical aspects of F1.
Yes, I remember you repeating, what seemed like every other post, what a better job Force India were doing than Williams. Right up to when the Administrators letters started to arrive. Which, incidentally, they still are arriving.Williams GP Holdings last Accounts still show a profit, that's reality.
C Lee Farquar said:
Yes, I remember you repeating, what seemed like every other post, what a better job Force India were doing than Williams. Right up to when the Administrators letters started to arrive. Which, incidentally, they still are arriving.
Williams GP Holdings last Accounts still show a profit, that's reality.
What do you mean that's reality? That's because that profit is effectively the shareholders income... It's cash held back from the expensive business of building and fielding F1 cars. Profit in no way demonstrates that an F1 team has the money to hit it's ideal targets nor that it has a stable future. It's future income grows ever more dependant on improving performance in order to retain and attract sponsors - ya'know, the guys that ultimately bankroll everything, including what is scraped off the top as profit.Williams GP Holdings last Accounts still show a profit, that's reality.
TheDeuce said:
thegreenhell said:
CoolHands said:
An ally gearbox isn’t automatically ‘bad’. The advantages of cf box might only be minimal. And they would have had to pay for that too, so savings compared with not making their own might not be high.
Someone on one of the F1 technincal forums suggested that a CF gearbox would cost £12M to develop and save about 5kg over a titanium one. Obviously, buying in a Mercedes one would cost less than £12M, but they would lose control of the design and also be at the whim of Mercedes for things like suspension mounting points, which would naturally only suit the Mercedes unless you also bought the whole Mercedes rear end, which might then not suit the preferred design philosophy of the rest of the car.It's not as simple as just buying a gearbox and bolting it on.
Fair point about the mounting points etc. There will be pros and cons I'm sure, expense being one of them (although maintaining the staff and facilities to produce their own will also have a significant cost). They are however the only car on the grid that still uses an ally/titanium box, so very much against the tide. I'm thinking there must therefore be other benefits to a CF box beyond the relatively modest weight saving.
They may have partly solved the problem for 2019, but that car had a significant issue, which was preventing it from challenging even the lower end of the mid-field. Downforce = drag, so did they pile on more downforce to overcome the rear-end instability, at the expense of increasing drag?
thegreenhell said:
Someone on one of the F1 technincal forums suggested that a CF gearbox would cost £12M to develop and save about 5kg over a titanium one. Obviously, buying in a Mercedes one would cost less than £12M, but they would lose control of the design and also be at the whim of Mercedes for things like suspension mounting points, which would naturally only suit the Mercedes unless you also bought the whole Mercedes rear end, which might then not suit the preferred design philosophy of the rest of the car.
It's not as simple as just buying a gearbox and bolting it on.
I've designed a few carbon gearbox's and it's not a simple thing to createIt's not as simple as just buying a gearbox and bolting it on.
It's quite a challenging part, probably one of the more busy parts on an F1 car to get right with so much going on in a small area of the car so to buy one in compromises the whole rear end of the car
Design is a lot more involved and it also takes up a whole heap of different production resources/challenges when making race quantities so changing from metal to carbon is no easy task on top of the almost impossible task of getting a new car to the grid
When I've asked why carbon instead of metal the answer from people that do know what makes an F1 car go fast the answer is always increased stiffness first and then weight saving second
marine boy said:
When I've asked why carbon instead of metal the answer from people that do know what makes an F1 car go fast the answer is always increased stiffness first and then weight saving second
Carbon instead of 'alloy' I assume? I can understand the extra stiffness is an advantage, it makes everything aft of the gearbox more predictable by removing any movement that isn't there by design. In terms of driver confidence alone that kind of thing can no doubt make a big difference.I'm a bit surprised the gearbox, whatever it was made of could be anything less than effectively stiff enough though. Surely even fractional distortion of the casing would lead to rapid additional wear to the innards?
DanielSan said:
Tyre Smoke said:
Granted.
But that is a very bizarre stance to take. An engine and gearbox hardly detracts from it being a Williams.
If that is truly how they are running things, then they are going to go under. I'm surprised they haven't already.
Whether F1 allows the team to fold and disappear is another entity altogether. Because I really can't see Frank selling up to anyone and losing the name.
Even with the whole bizarre gearbox/constructor thing aside, theyve been getting the basics wrong since before the V6 era began, when was the last William's with a genuinely good aero package? They get away with it when the new power units came in because the Merc was an absolute rocket. As soon as Ferrari/Renault got within 20-30bhp they've fallen down the grid as pretty much every other team had a car that worked better But that is a very bizarre stance to take. An engine and gearbox hardly detracts from it being a Williams.
If that is truly how they are running things, then they are going to go under. I'm surprised they haven't already.
Whether F1 allows the team to fold and disappear is another entity altogether. Because I really can't see Frank selling up to anyone and losing the name.
The back end of a Williams is notably more basic under the skin than the other merc customer teams (and by extension, the rest of the grid). That’s not an armchair opinion either.
Paddy Lowe was very vocal about retaining the in house gearbox. I wonder if the overall design of the car he was responsible for was locked in too early (we all know f1 guys don’t sit still during gardening leave!) and was therefore stuck with it. I don’t but the rationale for it otherwise, f1 has always been about chassis building with a bought in (or gifted) engine, the average fan cares not about whether the gearbox is as well.
I really want Williams to have a good season, they’re a great team with spirit and camaraderie and George Russel is definitely the real deal. I hope leadership changes come quickly, I don’t think Claire cuts it, she’s lost the dressing room as it were.
Paddy Lowe was very vocal about retaining the in house gearbox. I wonder if the overall design of the car he was responsible for was locked in too early (we all know f1 guys don’t sit still during gardening leave!) and was therefore stuck with it. I don’t but the rationale for it otherwise, f1 has always been about chassis building with a bought in (or gifted) engine, the average fan cares not about whether the gearbox is as well.
I really want Williams to have a good season, they’re a great team with spirit and camaraderie and George Russel is definitely the real deal. I hope leadership changes come quickly, I don’t think Claire cuts it, she’s lost the dressing room as it were.
Petrus1983 said:
Williams certainly wanted to make a statement this morning by being first out on track - they’re 30 laps in and have already gone faster than the fastest time they set on the last day of 2019 pre season testing. Fingers crossed they can compete for some points this year.
Last year they managed 1:18.130This year (so far) just 1:18.534
Time for improvement of course, it's only day one and the smaller teams will spend most of this week validating the car ahead of pushing it. Although of note, Racing Point are actually already 2 tenths faster than their fastest lap in last years test. Which is quite impressive and might hint at the level of advancement of the grid this year.
Going back to Claire for a moment. She is clearly incompetent as a TP. She contradicts at every turn, blames external factors for their failings and is just towing the party line. Daddy is dictating what happens and she Carrie's out his wishes.
With regard to the gearbox, surely the other Merc customers have the same restrictions for mounting points, etc? And they are all significantly faster. Plus a customer gearbox is going to save hundreds of thousands of pounds over a season. If only in staff wages and production costs.
Williams top brass are effectively sitting at their desks with their fingers in their ears shouting La la la la we are a World champion team.
It's like watching the end of the Third Reich. Not that I'm for one minute suggesting any similarities except for a refusal to see the obvious.
With regard to the gearbox, surely the other Merc customers have the same restrictions for mounting points, etc? And they are all significantly faster. Plus a customer gearbox is going to save hundreds of thousands of pounds over a season. If only in staff wages and production costs.
Williams top brass are effectively sitting at their desks with their fingers in their ears shouting La la la la we are a World champion team.
It's like watching the end of the Third Reich. Not that I'm for one minute suggesting any similarities except for a refusal to see the obvious.
Petrus1983 said:
Where are you following it as I’m being told fibs!
Here's the 2019 times: https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/4275/f1-pre-sea...And unless you're watching live on sky, here are the live lap times from this year: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W8T0VVTeYE
A number of teams already looking like last years times will quite easily be beaten, probably this week, maybe today for a few of them - in addition to RP who are really having a pretty good day so far! - Honda power...?
Edit: Williams best time week one last year was 1:20.997, which was shocking, so they have obviously beaten that already today. Worth bearing in mind last year they arrived late, sent the car out and then almost immediately pulled it back in and held it in the garage for most of the rest of the week whilst they worked out why it was already breaking itself... This year, none of that nonsense so far, so they're indeed doing better.
Edited by TheDeuce on Wednesday 19th February 10:53
Tyre Smoke said:
Going back to Claire for a moment. She is clearly incompetent as a TP. She contradicts at every turn, blames external factors for their failings and is just towing the party line. Daddy is dictating what happens and she Carrie's out his wishes.
With regard to the gearbox, surely the other Merc customers have the same restrictions for mounting points, etc? And they are all significantly faster. Plus a customer gearbox is going to save hundreds of thousands of pounds over a season. If only in staff wages and production costs.
Williams top brass are effectively sitting at their desks with their fingers in their ears shouting La la la la we are a World champion team.
It's like watching the end of the Third Reich. Not that I'm for one minute suggesting any similarities except for a refusal to see the obvious.
Well it's all meaningless at the moment on harder tyres they are in 7th closer to Ferrari 6th than the Ferrari are to McLaren 4th. If it was reflective of 2020 performance at this stage Williams would be drunk until Melbourne. With regard to the gearbox, surely the other Merc customers have the same restrictions for mounting points, etc? And they are all significantly faster. Plus a customer gearbox is going to save hundreds of thousands of pounds over a season. If only in staff wages and production costs.
Williams top brass are effectively sitting at their desks with their fingers in their ears shouting La la la la we are a World champion team.
It's like watching the end of the Third Reich. Not that I'm for one minute suggesting any similarities except for a refusal to see the obvious.
Edit now ahead of the Ferrarri in 6th so that's settled.
Edited by Graveworm on Wednesday 19th February 11:39
Tyre Smoke said:
Going back to Claire for a moment. She is clearly incompetent as a TP. She contradicts at every turn, blames external factors for their failings and is just towing the party line. Daddy is dictating what happens and she Carrie's out his wishes.
With regard to the gearbox, surely the other Merc customers have the same restrictions for mounting points, etc? And they are all significantly faster. Plus a customer gearbox is going to save hundreds of thousands of pounds over a season. If only in staff wages and production costs.
Williams top brass are effectively sitting at their desks with their fingers in their ears shouting La la la la we are a World champion team.
It's like watching the end of the Third Reich. Not that I'm for one minute suggesting any similarities except for a refusal to see the obvious.
I'd go more with it's like watching the end of Tyrrell than the Third Reich With regard to the gearbox, surely the other Merc customers have the same restrictions for mounting points, etc? And they are all significantly faster. Plus a customer gearbox is going to save hundreds of thousands of pounds over a season. If only in staff wages and production costs.
Williams top brass are effectively sitting at their desks with their fingers in their ears shouting La la la la we are a World champion team.
It's like watching the end of the Third Reich. Not that I'm for one minute suggesting any similarities except for a refusal to see the obvious.
Tyre Smoke said:
Going back to Claire for a moment. She is clearly incompetent as a TP. She contradicts at every turn, blames external factors for their failings and is just towing the party line. Daddy is dictating what happens and she Carrie's out his wishes.
Maybe that's why she's only deputy TP.Tyre Smoke said:
With regard to the gearbox, surely the other Merc customers have the same restrictions for mounting points, etc? And they are all significantly faster. Plus a customer gearbox is going to save hundreds of thousands of pounds over a season. If only in staff wages and production costs.
Racing Point have the whole Mercedes rear end including suspension. They also use the Mercedes wind tunnel. Their new car looks suspiciously like the 2019 Mercedes in many areas.Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff