Discussion
HustleRussell said:
Hopefully this season will be a shot in the arm for the management and will become a catalyst for the necessary change.
That's what everyone, including Claire Williams said this time last year.But yes, hopefully at some point the turn around will start. I'm convinced Williams won't actually disappear, one way or another the team will go on, in whatever form they end up. But this period in their history is really dragging now.
From what I've read online about elements of the 2019 car being incomplete during their limited preseason testing, they're probably way behind the other teams in terms of running time with their complete package (day one even)? Maybe the gap, once they've had some more running, won't be as bad as 4 seconds a lap.
Trouble is, with in-season testing being so limited, it must be hard to catch up. I guess they'll be using the rest of practice, qualifying and the race itself as an extended test session.
Trouble is, with in-season testing being so limited, it must be hard to catch up. I guess they'll be using the rest of practice, qualifying and the race itself as an extended test session.
Frimley111R said:
Petrus1983 said:
They’re only 4secs off the pace - nothing to worry about 
No wonder their tech guy got the boot! And he said it's a much better car than last year!I suppose one way to look at it; this years car is slower than the one he delivered last year. So either he's outright sabotaged them or something else is going wrong.
stevesuk said:
From what I've read online about elements of the 2019 car being incomplete during their limited preseason testing, they're probably way behind the other teams in terms of running time with their complete package (day one even)? Maybe the gap, once they've had some more running, won't be as bad as 4 seconds a lap.
Trouble is, with in-season testing being so limited, it must be hard to catch up. I guess they'll be using the rest of practice, qualifying and the race itself as an extended test session.
The notion of catching up is relative though. They were slower to develop the car initially, so why expect them to be faster to develop it now than the other teams will be to further develop there cars?Trouble is, with in-season testing being so limited, it must be hard to catch up. I guess they'll be using the rest of practice, qualifying and the race itself as an extended test session.
Ultimately, to close the 4 second deficit, they would have to make leaps in progress at a faster rate than the top 3. That's not going to happen, so to be competitive, they need to find a way to start competitive.
Petrus1983 said:
George Russel has said it’s not as bad as it looks - but they’re circa 2seconds off P18 and that’s an incredible amount of time they need to find.
In real terms (grabs calculator..) it's getting lapped 2 times on Sunday by the top 3, once by everyone else except maybe P17/18Almost certainly won't happen quite like that, but that's the extent of their lack of pace.
EDIT: Maths was wrong, corrected now - I think..
Edited by TheDeuce on Friday 15th March 10:14
TheDeuce said:
The notion of catching up is relative though. They were slower to develop the car initially, so why expect them to be faster to develop it now than the other teams will be to further develop there cars?
Ultimately, to close the 4 second deficit, they would have to make leaps in progress at a faster rate than the top 3. That's not going to happen, so to be competitive, they need to find a way to start competitive.
True - but I assume the first time you run a car as a full package, you'd expect to make quicker initial progress (in terms of lap time improvements) as everything is calibrated/tested for the first time? Although I could be wrong, not having any experience in the field Ultimately, to close the 4 second deficit, they would have to make leaps in progress at a faster rate than the top 3. That's not going to happen, so to be competitive, they need to find a way to start competitive.
I guess if you look back over Formula 1 history, there are plenty of examples of teams who were once at the front of the field, slipping quickly towards the back. The names Tyrrell, Lotus and Brabham spring to mind - all past race/championship winning teams who ended up slipping to the back of the field (even if Tyrrell perhaps had some of its DNA ultimately evolve in to Brawn GP and then Mercedes).
Petrus1983 said:
It’s amazing to think Williams are still the second most successful of all teams (9 vs Ferrari at 16) - but the changes needed seem so great I can’t see how CW can stay in charge.
Can you just imagine how long ago she would have been ejected if she were at any other team putting out cars like this? For that matter how quickly Williams have ejected other senior figures for far lesser failures?Williams need to stop thinking about their history, it's irrelevant at this point. It's like seeing a run down restaurant still proudly displaying certificates in the window from when they used to win 'best in town' awards 15 years ago. You just know the only reason the restaurant is now run down, is that they got too hung up on their success in the glory days and failed to notice everywhere else was evolving. That is Williams today. And at some point this Weekend Claire will say something about their former successes.
Teddy Lop said:
that's all really interesting, I was under the impression it was a bit like ex military jets where 50, 100 year old stuff is fairly straightforward for blokes with grease under their fingernails to keep chugging away but the stuff that retired yesterday is so mega complicated and generally worn out too that only insane resources not generally available to enthusiasts will keep it going.
Do you modify the engines much for usability? I'm thinking the incredible tolerance they run too (seized when cold etc)
if you wanted to start a separate thread to post about what you get up to I'm sure I'd be well received.
The last line - I fully agree with this sentiment.Do you modify the engines much for usability? I'm thinking the incredible tolerance they run too (seized when cold etc)
if you wanted to start a separate thread to post about what you get up to I'm sure I'd be well received.
Reading information from experts is fascinating.
I love motor sport, especially F1, but I really hate the ‘my driver is better than your driver’ comments.
stevesuk said:
True - but I assume the first time you run a car as a full package, you'd expect to make quicker initial progress (in terms of lap time improvements) as everything is calibrated/tested for the first time? Although I could be wrong, not having any experience in the field
We don't know how 'complete' their current package is. But sure, if there was an end goal they wanted to start with this season that is yet to come, then that should be a leap forwards, rather than a shuffle.The problem is that the top 3 are now effectively bringing almost new cars these days when they take a step forwards. We're at FP of the first race and Mercedes are on the third major iteration of their 2019 car.
They could hopefully get a second closer to the next slowest cars perhaps. Although who knows what those teams might have to add.
garythesign said:
Teddy Lop said:
that's all really interesting, I was under the impression it was a bit like ex military jets where 50, 100 year old stuff is fairly straightforward for blokes with grease under their fingernails to keep chugging away but the stuff that retired yesterday is so mega complicated and generally worn out too that only insane resources not generally available to enthusiasts will keep it going.
Do you modify the engines much for usability? I'm thinking the incredible tolerance they run too (seized when cold etc)
if you wanted to start a separate thread to post about what you get up to I'm sure I'd be well received.
The last line - I fully agree with this sentiment.Do you modify the engines much for usability? I'm thinking the incredible tolerance they run too (seized when cold etc)
if you wanted to start a separate thread to post about what you get up to I'm sure I'd be well received.
Reading information from experts is fascinating.
I love motor sport, especially F1, but I really hate the ‘my driver is better than your driver’ comments.
TheDeuce said:
The problem is that the top 3 are now effectively bringing almost new cars these days when they take a step forwards. We're at FP of the first race and Mercedes are on the third major iteration of their 2019 car.
Yes indeed, I was thinking how much tougher things must now be for "independent" teams without factory backing and financing - to keep up with the relentless pace of progress made by the top 3 teams. Ultimately they have little hope of moving to the front of the midfield, let alone challenging for podiums. Early to judge after day one of the first race weekend, but McLaren don't seem to have made much progress either. Last year, after day one of the first race weekend, they had both cars in the top 10.
stevesuk said:
... I was thinking how much tougher things must now be for "independent" teams without factory backing and financing - to keep up with the relentless pace of progress made by the top 3 teams...
With perhaps Sauber/Alfa Romeo being the exception that proves the rule? Funnily with them having a red bar against the driver's name on the TV I often saw VET/RAI together in the timings and almost thought the Ferraris were together again! Edited by RichB on Friday 15th March 11:20
RichB said:
stevesuk said:
... I was thinking how much tougher things must now be for "independent" teams without factory backing and financing - to keep up with the relentless pace of progress made by the top 3 teams...
With perhaps Sauber/Alfa Romeo being the exception that proves the rule? Merc could try and swoop in and do the same with Williams ... but it's probably easier to negotiate it with Racing Point.
stevesuk said:
TheDeuce said:
The problem is that the top 3 are now effectively bringing almost new cars these days when they take a step forwards. We're at FP of the first race and Mercedes are on the third major iteration of their 2019 car.
Yes indeed, I was thinking how much tougher things must now be for "independent" teams without factory backing and financing - to keep up with the relentless pace of progress made by the top 3 teams. Ultimately they have little hope of moving to the front of the midfield, let alone challenging for podiums. Early to judge after day one of the first race weekend, but McLaren don't seem to have made much progress either. Last year, after day one of the first race weekend, they had both cars in the top 10.
McLaren in P14 isn't terrible, just sad to see no signs of progress. I don't see any indication of the 2019 Renault PU being as good as people speculated yet (especially vs the Honda PU..), but as you say it's very early to judge. Williams are the only team I feel it is very safe to judge at this stage.
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