Discussion
skwdenyer said:
All that you say is based on the assumption that the things that a B team must do are things that Williams could do well. The evidence suggests that Williams have a major problem in aero, a problem that becoming a B team is going to do little to resolve.
Don't forget that Haas AIUI don't just buy-in parts; they then subcontract the build to Dallara?
I think Williams can do Aero, in theory... The actual physics of Aero, whilst hugely complex are not a secret, there is talent for hire out there. They also have (I think) 2 wind tunnels. It strikes me that their aero deficit, in fact every deficit, is more or less down to them simply failing to deliver a solid and timely final realisation of whatever they set out to do initially. They start each season with a reasonable budget, then there is infighting, people get fired, and the car comes out the other end and it's crap.Don't forget that Haas AIUI don't just buy-in parts; they then subcontract the build to Dallara?
If they were to become a Mercedes 'B team' it would need to be part of an overall acceptance some things had to change. Mercedes could undoubtedly help them with change, if they wanted it.
Although by the same token, Williams family could just sell the team. At which point it probably would become a B team or buyer of parts.
In the end, the reason any of these things won't happen is the same reason they're so stuck right now, they simply will not change or evolve. It feels as if everything that could happen is prevented because it's not the way Williams want to go. But as it is, they're going nowhere. The irony is that their stubbornness is now devaluing the legacy they seem to want to honour.
TheDeuce said:
I think Williams can do Aero, in theory... The actual physics of Aero, whilst hugely complex are not a secret, there is talent for hire out there. They also have (I think) 2 wind tunnels. It strikes me that their aero deficit, in fact every deficit, is more or less down to them simply failing to deliver a solid and timely final realisation of whatever they set out to do initially. They start each season with a reasonable budget, then there is infighting, people get fired, and the car comes out the other end and it's crap.
If they were to become a Mercedes 'B team' it would need to be part of an overall acceptance some things had to change. Mercedes could undoubtedly help them with change, if they wanted it.
Although by the same token, Williams family could just sell the team. At which point it probably would become a B team or buyer of parts.
In the end, the reason any of these things won't happen is the same reason they're so stuck right now, they simply will not change or evolve. It feels as if everything that could happen is prevented because it's not the way Williams want to go. But as it is, they're going nowhere. The irony is that their stubbornness is now devaluing the legacy they seem to want to honour.
Nicely put. If they were to become a Mercedes 'B team' it would need to be part of an overall acceptance some things had to change. Mercedes could undoubtedly help them with change, if they wanted it.
Although by the same token, Williams family could just sell the team. At which point it probably would become a B team or buyer of parts.
In the end, the reason any of these things won't happen is the same reason they're so stuck right now, they simply will not change or evolve. It feels as if everything that could happen is prevented because it's not the way Williams want to go. But as it is, they're going nowhere. The irony is that their stubbornness is now devaluing the legacy they seem to want to honour.
It's just such a shame as I'd like to see them make some progress, but they are going backwards!
It wasn't so long ago they were scoring points fairly frequently with FM and VB - but the wheels have really fallen off so to speak.
Therein lies the crux of Williams dilemma.
The question the group needs to ask themselves is, ‘what’s more important? Going racing (and competing), or being a legitimate constructor?’
And you can bet that there might be internal factions forming around that too.
Because if the important concern is that they are racing competitively, and seen to be doing so, it stands to reason that if they haven’t got a big boys budget then they need to do a Haas and become vassals. Because floundering around at the back isn’t a strong look.
If it’s more imperative to their wider business model that they are legitimate constructors which in turn lends credibility that propels their Advanced Engineering effort, then they need to perform a reset of their ambitions in the short term and publically start showing that they’ve got that very precise engineering and problem solving talent that they so espouse.
The question the group needs to ask themselves is, ‘what’s more important? Going racing (and competing), or being a legitimate constructor?’
And you can bet that there might be internal factions forming around that too.
Because if the important concern is that they are racing competitively, and seen to be doing so, it stands to reason that if they haven’t got a big boys budget then they need to do a Haas and become vassals. Because floundering around at the back isn’t a strong look.
If it’s more imperative to their wider business model that they are legitimate constructors which in turn lends credibility that propels their Advanced Engineering effort, then they need to perform a reset of their ambitions in the short term and publically start showing that they’ve got that very precise engineering and problem solving talent that they so espouse.
Mr Tidy said:
Nicely put.
It's just such a shame as I'd like to see them make some progress, but they are going backwards!
It wasn't so long ago they were scoring points fairly frequently with FM and VB - but the wheels have really fallen off so to speak.
They had a brief resurgence after several years of steady decline. But then, a plane with no engine can rise a few times before the final descent.. It's just such a shame as I'd like to see them make some progress, but they are going backwards!
It wasn't so long ago they were scoring points fairly frequently with FM and VB - but the wheels have really fallen off so to speak.
It'll change, when the Williams family change. Or let go of control, or lose control.. Just a matter of how long before 'something' big happens.
On a mildly positive note though, Williams are one of the few teams in the history of the sport that could raise headlines so high whilst being back markers. We seem to have ended up with a season in which one of the biggest stories is about a team which aren't actually in the competition at all
tigerkoi said:
Therein lies the crux of Williams dilemma.
The question the group needs to ask themselves is, ‘what’s more important? Going racing (and competing), or being a legitimate constructor?’
And you can bet that there might be internal factions forming around that too.
Because if the important concern is that they are racing competitively, and seen to be doing so, it stands to reason that if they haven’t got a big boys budget then they need to do a Haas and become vassals. Because floundering around at the back isn’t a strong look.
If it’s more imperative to their wider business model that they are legitimate constructors which in turn lends credibility that propels their Advanced Engineering effort, then they need to perform a reset of their ambitions in the short term and publically start showing that they’ve got that very precise engineering and problem solving talent that they so espouse.
Your point about internal factions, makes a great deal of sense.The question the group needs to ask themselves is, ‘what’s more important? Going racing (and competing), or being a legitimate constructor?’
And you can bet that there might be internal factions forming around that too.
Because if the important concern is that they are racing competitively, and seen to be doing so, it stands to reason that if they haven’t got a big boys budget then they need to do a Haas and become vassals. Because floundering around at the back isn’t a strong look.
If it’s more imperative to their wider business model that they are legitimate constructors which in turn lends credibility that propels their Advanced Engineering effort, then they need to perform a reset of their ambitions in the short term and publically start showing that they’ve got that very precise engineering and problem solving talent that they so espouse.
They can't have it both ways. The family of course wants to do things the way they intended when Williams was formed. But how can you truly motivate a workforce to pull that line? It's not the family legacy of the workforce... What are they fighting for exactly? If all they have each year is to fight to survive, then the killer instinct is lost. No one has to do an amazing job, just a passable job under such circumstances - if last is a foregone conclusion either way.
The advanced engineering is a profitable offshoot of their F1 R&D. If they lose the F1 side, it's dead in the water. It's not so profitable it can maintain the 800 staff and workshops that fuel the product development without it all being made possible by an F1 budget.
skwdenyer said:
All that you say is based on the assumption that the things that a B team must do are things that Williams could do well. The evidence suggests that Williams have a major problem in aero, a problem that becoming a B team is going to do little to resolve.
Don't forget that Haas AIUI don't just buy-in parts; they then subcontract the build to Dallara?
The one advantage they'd have with being the b-team/part customer is cash free to do more aero work and development also. Don't forget that Haas AIUI don't just buy-in parts; they then subcontract the build to Dallara?
TheDeuce said:
groundhog said:
DanielSan said:
The F1 business model as it stands if you're not a manufacturer team is far more effective going down the Haas/Force Stroll route of buying in as many parts as you can and then developing your own aero. Williams and Mclaren just stand as proof that going it alone in everything bar engine doesn't work and isn't cost effective.
It seems to me that if Williams F1 wants to continue long term it needs to either become a Mercedes Benz B team or do a Haas and of course get some decent leadership because it seems to me like like Teresa May is running it at the moment .When you reach that level of low, change is generally the answer. After two years on the row, it shouldn't even be a question. They should become a B team. It's not a permanent thing, nothing to stop them climbing back above that rank in the future. But for the here and now, they need help. Mercedes would I'm sure find ways of providing to them whatever is needed to stabilise the team and find ways they can start to progress, even if it's ultimately for Mercedes benefit in the short to medium term - they would still be better than they are now.
Williams has issues, we know this through 32 pages (at the moment) of comments about them. What I want to know, which is only now being discussed, is why this car has a fundamental issue for the second time in two years? Is their wind tunnel at fault? Was it Paddy Lowe at fault? Is Clare Williams at fault? Is the tea lady at fault?
Munter said:
sgtBerbatov said:
What I want to know, which is only now being discussed, is why this car has a fundamental issue for the second time in two years?
Because they have a central issue. Most likely a cash flow issue and/or a working environment issue.PH kept a firm hand on things, but nobody perhaps took a step back and said "this structure is working despite its form, due to the people in place, not because of its form." Similar problems are talked about at McLaren - importing BAe's matrix structure into a racing team environment.
Expanding on this, I'd imagine Pat Symonds might have succeeded because he was a consultant, not an employee, and probably rubbed some people up the wrong way to get results. When he left, the old structure remained.
From what has been said, my best guess is that PL realised this too late (cf his public comments about this), possibly not understanding what Symonds had done (or had to do) to keep things going and believing the structure itself was fit for purpose when it was not, and then (finally) decided he needed to fix it (and persuaded CW / FW that that was required). He may have tried to do too much too quickly on that front, losing a lot of good people in the process and alienating the workforce.
I've never worked with PL, but he doesn't on the face of it seem to have the charisma necessary to pull off a root-and-branch restructuring whilst continuing to move forward as a race team and in the face of entrenched opposition.
sgtBerbatov said:
TheDeuce said:
groundhog said:
DanielSan said:
The F1 business model as it stands if you're not a manufacturer team is far more effective going down the Haas/Force Stroll route of buying in as many parts as you can and then developing your own aero. Williams and Mclaren just stand as proof that going it alone in everything bar engine doesn't work and isn't cost effective.
It seems to me that if Williams F1 wants to continue long term it needs to either become a Mercedes Benz B team or do a Haas and of course get some decent leadership because it seems to me like like Teresa May is running it at the moment .When you reach that level of low, change is generally the answer. After two years on the row, it shouldn't even be a question. They should become a B team. It's not a permanent thing, nothing to stop them climbing back above that rank in the future. But for the here and now, they need help. Mercedes would I'm sure find ways of providing to them whatever is needed to stabilise the team and find ways they can start to progress, even if it's ultimately for Mercedes benefit in the short to medium term - they would still be better than they are now.
Williams has issues, we know this through 32 pages (at the moment) of comments about them. What I want to know, which is only now being discussed, is why this car has a fundamental issue for the second time in two years? Is their wind tunnel at fault? Was it Paddy Lowe at fault? Is Clare Williams at fault? Is the tea lady at fault?
They are also not an engineering company that dabbles in F1. You know the history (or should do). The F1 operation begat this nascent effort in Advanced Engineering. The engineering, like Hybrid Power before it got sold off to GKN is just a byproduct of what its main shareholder - Frank - wants the outfit to do. Which is racing.
Which begs the question as I pointed out ^^^ there.
tigerkoi said:
Williams are a GP team. You know, that’s why they’re listed on the Frankfurt exchange as “Williams Grand Prix Holdings”! It’s not a mistake or anything.
They are also not an engineering company that dabbles in F1. You know the history (or should do). The F1 operation begat this nascent effort in Advanced Engineering. The engineering, like Hybrid Power before it got sold off to GKN is just a byproduct of what its main shareholder - Frank - wants the outfit to do. Which is racing.
Which begs the question as I pointed out ^^^ there.
Nonsense, the F1 team & WAE are two totally different entities. On opposite ends of the site, with different staff.They are also not an engineering company that dabbles in F1. You know the history (or should do). The F1 operation begat this nascent effort in Advanced Engineering. The engineering, like Hybrid Power before it got sold off to GKN is just a byproduct of what its main shareholder - Frank - wants the outfit to do. Which is racing.
Which begs the question as I pointed out ^^^ there.
IN51GHT said:
tigerkoi said:
Williams are a GP team. You know, that’s why they’re listed on the Frankfurt exchange as “Williams Grand Prix Holdings”! It’s not a mistake or anything.
They are also not an engineering company that dabbles in F1. You know the history (or should do). The F1 operation begat this nascent effort in Advanced Engineering. The engineering, like Hybrid Power before it got sold off to GKN is just a byproduct of what its main shareholder - Frank - wants the outfit to do. Which is racing.
Which begs the question as I pointed out ^^^ there.
Nonsense, the F1 team & WAE are two totally different entities. On opposite ends of the site, with different staff.They are also not an engineering company that dabbles in F1. You know the history (or should do). The F1 operation begat this nascent effort in Advanced Engineering. The engineering, like Hybrid Power before it got sold off to GKN is just a byproduct of what its main shareholder - Frank - wants the outfit to do. Which is racing.
Which begs the question as I pointed out ^^^ there.
It’s about the underlying ethos of the company that’s listed on a stock exchange and has a majority shareholder who says the only thing he really, really cares about is putting a car on a grid on a Sunday.
tigerkoi said:
IN51GHT said:
tigerkoi said:
Williams are a GP team. You know, that’s why they’re listed on the Frankfurt exchange as “Williams Grand Prix Holdings”! It’s not a mistake or anything.
They are also not an engineering company that dabbles in F1. You know the history (or should do). The F1 operation begat this nascent effort in Advanced Engineering. The engineering, like Hybrid Power before it got sold off to GKN is just a byproduct of what its main shareholder - Frank - wants the outfit to do. Which is racing.
Which begs the question as I pointed out ^^^ there.
Nonsense, the F1 team & WAE are two totally different entities. On opposite ends of the site, with different staff.They are also not an engineering company that dabbles in F1. You know the history (or should do). The F1 operation begat this nascent effort in Advanced Engineering. The engineering, like Hybrid Power before it got sold off to GKN is just a byproduct of what its main shareholder - Frank - wants the outfit to do. Which is racing.
Which begs the question as I pointed out ^^^ there.
It’s about the underlying ethos of the company that’s listed on a stock exchange and has a majority shareholder who says the only thing he really, really cares about is putting a car on a grid on a Sunday.
6 years in the F1 team then 3 different contracts of 8, 12 & 18months at WAE.
IN51GHT said:
tigerkoi said:
IN51GHT said:
tigerkoi said:
Williams are a GP team. You know, that’s why they’re listed on the Frankfurt exchange as “Williams Grand Prix Holdings”! It’s not a mistake or anything.
They are also not an engineering company that dabbles in F1. You know the history (or should do). The F1 operation begat this nascent effort in Advanced Engineering. The engineering, like Hybrid Power before it got sold off to GKN is just a byproduct of what its main shareholder - Frank - wants the outfit to do. Which is racing.
Which begs the question as I pointed out ^^^ there.
Nonsense, the F1 team & WAE are two totally different entities. On opposite ends of the site, with different staff.They are also not an engineering company that dabbles in F1. You know the history (or should do). The F1 operation begat this nascent effort in Advanced Engineering. The engineering, like Hybrid Power before it got sold off to GKN is just a byproduct of what its main shareholder - Frank - wants the outfit to do. Which is racing.
Which begs the question as I pointed out ^^^ there.
It’s about the underlying ethos of the company that’s listed on a stock exchange and has a majority shareholder who says the only thing he really, really cares about is putting a car on a grid on a Sunday.
6 years in the F1 team then 3 different contracts of 8, 12 & 18months at WAE.
tigerkoi said:
IN51GHT said:
tigerkoi said:
IN51GHT said:
tigerkoi said:
Williams are a GP team. You know, that’s why they’re listed on the Frankfurt exchange as “Williams Grand Prix Holdings”! It’s not a mistake or anything.
They are also not an engineering company that dabbles in F1. You know the history (or should do). The F1 operation begat this nascent effort in Advanced Engineering. The engineering, like Hybrid Power before it got sold off to GKN is just a byproduct of what its main shareholder - Frank - wants the outfit to do. Which is racing.
Which begs the question as I pointed out ^^^ there.
Nonsense, the F1 team & WAE are two totally different entities. On opposite ends of the site, with different staff.They are also not an engineering company that dabbles in F1. You know the history (or should do). The F1 operation begat this nascent effort in Advanced Engineering. The engineering, like Hybrid Power before it got sold off to GKN is just a byproduct of what its main shareholder - Frank - wants the outfit to do. Which is racing.
Which begs the question as I pointed out ^^^ there.
It’s about the underlying ethos of the company that’s listed on a stock exchange and has a majority shareholder who says the only thing he really, really cares about is putting a car on a grid on a Sunday.
6 years in the F1 team then 3 different contracts of 8, 12 & 18months at WAE.
TheDeuce said:
tigerkoi said:
IN51GHT said:
tigerkoi said:
IN51GHT said:
tigerkoi said:
Williams are a GP team. You know, that’s why they’re listed on the Frankfurt exchange as “Williams Grand Prix Holdings”! It’s not a mistake or anything.
They are also not an engineering company that dabbles in F1. You know the history (or should do). The F1 operation begat this nascent effort in Advanced Engineering. The engineering, like Hybrid Power before it got sold off to GKN is just a byproduct of what its main shareholder - Frank - wants the outfit to do. Which is racing.
Which begs the question as I pointed out ^^^ there.
Nonsense, the F1 team & WAE are two totally different entities. On opposite ends of the site, with different staff.They are also not an engineering company that dabbles in F1. You know the history (or should do). The F1 operation begat this nascent effort in Advanced Engineering. The engineering, like Hybrid Power before it got sold off to GKN is just a byproduct of what its main shareholder - Frank - wants the outfit to do. Which is racing.
Which begs the question as I pointed out ^^^ there.
It’s about the underlying ethos of the company that’s listed on a stock exchange and has a majority shareholder who says the only thing he really, really cares about is putting a car on a grid on a Sunday.
6 years in the F1 team then 3 different contracts of 8, 12 & 18months at WAE.
you know the answer to that as well as I do!I’d love to walk up to Frank and say, “hey Frank, if it all goes to hell, and you had a choice, what would you sell first, the F1 team or the AE bit?”
skwdenyer said:
My best guess is that it is (or was) an organisational issue. Their management structure seems to have been set up like a traditional engineering company, not a race team. FW creating (after many years' work) the structure he saw at "proper" companies in his youth, perhaps?
PH kept a firm hand on things, but nobody perhaps took a step back and said "this structure is working despite its form, due to the people in place, not because of its form." Similar problems are talked about at McLaren - importing BAe's matrix structure into a racing team environment.
Expanding on this, I'd imagine Pat Symonds might have succeeded because he was a consultant, not an employee, and probably rubbed some people up the wrong way to get results. When he left, the old structure remained.
From what has been said, my best guess is that PL realised this too late (cf his public comments about this), possibly not understanding what Symonds had done (or had to do) to keep things going and believing the structure itself was fit for purpose when it was not, and then (finally) decided he needed to fix it (and persuaded CW / FW that that was required). He may have tried to do too much too quickly on that front, losing a lot of good people in the process and alienating the workforce.
I've never worked with PL, but he doesn't on the face of it seem to have the charisma necessary to pull off a root-and-branch restructuring whilst continuing to move forward as a race team and in the face of entrenched opposition.
Very valid points and argument. I totally agree with your view that things may have worked a certain way under PH but nobody recognised that that structure might not have been suited to a changing environment.PH kept a firm hand on things, but nobody perhaps took a step back and said "this structure is working despite its form, due to the people in place, not because of its form." Similar problems are talked about at McLaren - importing BAe's matrix structure into a racing team environment.
Expanding on this, I'd imagine Pat Symonds might have succeeded because he was a consultant, not an employee, and probably rubbed some people up the wrong way to get results. When he left, the old structure remained.
From what has been said, my best guess is that PL realised this too late (cf his public comments about this), possibly not understanding what Symonds had done (or had to do) to keep things going and believing the structure itself was fit for purpose when it was not, and then (finally) decided he needed to fix it (and persuaded CW / FW that that was required). He may have tried to do too much too quickly on that front, losing a lot of good people in the process and alienating the workforce.
I've never worked with PL, but he doesn't on the face of it seem to have the charisma necessary to pull off a root-and-branch restructuring whilst continuing to move forward as a race team and in the face of entrenched opposition.
tigerkoi said:
TheDeuce said:
tigerkoi said:
IN51GHT said:
tigerkoi said:
IN51GHT said:
tigerkoi said:
Williams are a GP team. You know, that’s why they’re listed on the Frankfurt exchange as “Williams Grand Prix Holdings”! It’s not a mistake or anything.
They are also not an engineering company that dabbles in F1. You know the history (or should do). The F1 operation begat this nascent effort in Advanced Engineering. The engineering, like Hybrid Power before it got sold off to GKN is just a byproduct of what its main shareholder - Frank - wants the outfit to do. Which is racing.
Which begs the question as I pointed out ^^^ there.
Nonsense, the F1 team & WAE are two totally different entities. On opposite ends of the site, with different staff.They are also not an engineering company that dabbles in F1. You know the history (or should do). The F1 operation begat this nascent effort in Advanced Engineering. The engineering, like Hybrid Power before it got sold off to GKN is just a byproduct of what its main shareholder - Frank - wants the outfit to do. Which is racing.
Which begs the question as I pointed out ^^^ there.
It’s about the underlying ethos of the company that’s listed on a stock exchange and has a majority shareholder who says the only thing he really, really cares about is putting a car on a grid on a Sunday.
6 years in the F1 team then 3 different contracts of 8, 12 & 18months at WAE.
you know the answer to that as well as I do!I’d love to walk up to Frank and say, “hey Frank, if it all goes to hell, and you had a choice, what would you sell first, the F1 team or the AE bit?”
There is a symbiotic relationship between the two outfits. WAE can be competitive and profitable in its field as much of the resource feeding it comes from the F1 side. Take that enormous benefit away and I don't see how it could continue.
It's in no way a case of WAE propping up the F1 team. The fact WAE is more profitable is, before it's mentioned, is totally irrelevant.
Munter said:
Because they have a central issue. Most likely a cash flow issue and/or a working environment issue.
As an engineering company they can't be the most attractive prospect at the moment, their 2019 car is 2/10ths slower than their 2017 car while every other team has gone faster and faster...We should probably drop the whole WAE thing and get back to what's wrong with Williams. Although I don't think there's very much more to say until their next outing - we have definitely (over) analysed everything that is known so far at this point.
Arguing with one another over theories passes the time but I think most of us would rather just see Williams do something bold rather than continue to wither away.
Arguing with one another over theories passes the time but I think most of us would rather just see Williams do something bold rather than continue to wither away.
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