Are Haas embarrassed about Rich Energy?

Are Haas embarrassed about Rich Energy?

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Discussion

skwdenyer

6,669 posts

179 months

Monday 4th March
quotequote all
JonChalk said:
Their website always talks about themselves as the Haas F1 team.

Their twitter handle is still @HaasF1team.

Their Facebook page is still Haas F1 team.

Despite their legal entry being Rich Energy Haas F1 team.

Williams have gone the whole hog with ROKIT; changed the lot, talk about themselves as "ROKiT Williams", etc.

Is the shine coming off already?
Every job ad they post right now calls themselves the Rich Energy Haas F1 Team, so they don't seem to be backing-off too far.

skwdenyer

6,669 posts

179 months

Monday 4th March
quotequote all
The Moose said:
Kraken said:
The Moose said:
The problem is that energy drinks in general are not a premium product. ‘Premium’ customers don’t buy energy drinks!
Why can't it be a premium product? There are premium brands of many other beverages.
Because customers of premium products don’t generally buy energy drinks.

A previous poster has described the typical consumer of that type of product...and I agree.
"Premium" and "luxury" are not absolutes, they are relative concepts - usually relative to one's station / situation in life, one's aspirations, one's social groups, etc.

For every consumer of small-run hand-bottled whiskey, there is a buyer of a monogrammed Juicy Couture velour shell suit at megabucks from Harrods. Even within single product groups there can be many "premium" positions relative to different, identifiable (and, hopefully, addressable) demographic groups.

It is quite possible for there to be a "premium energy drink" appealing to a "upper strata" of the energy drink consuming marketplace.

For me, being somebody who does appreciate a very fine malt from time to time, when I feel the need for an energy drink (yes, they have actual functional benefits from time to time IMHO), I go for the 49p corner shop special precisely because I have no need for my choice of energy drink to say anything about me smile

DanielSan

13,796 posts

106 months

Monday 4th March
quotequote all
skwdenyer said:
"Premium" and "luxury" are not absolutes, they are relative concepts - usually relative to one's station / situation in life, one's aspirations, one's social groups, etc.

For every consumer of small-run hand-bottled whiskey, there is a buyer of a monogrammed Juicy Couture velour shell suit at megabucks from Harrods. Even within single product groups there can be many "premium" positions relative to different, identifiable (and, hopefully, addressable) demographic groups.

It is quite possible for there to be a "premium energy drink" appealing to a "upper strata" of the energy drink consuming marketplace.

For me, being somebody who does appreciate a very fine malt from time to time, when I feel the need for an energy drink (yes, they have actual functional benefits from time to time IMHO), I go for the 49p corner shop special precisely because I have no need for my choice of energy drink to say anything about me smile
Don't be coming in here with sensible points and opinions. You have to just have a stereotype in your head and assume that what's in your head and your head only is fact...

ukaskew

4,726 posts

160 months

Monday 4th March
quotequote all
The Premium and Luxury and Exclusivity angle is all well and good, but then, directly from Rich Energy themselves...

- 90 million cans made
- In 6000 UK outlets

Those are some numbers, I'll say that. For context, 6000 UK outlets is equivalent to being sold in every single Tesco, Asda, Morrisons and Sainsbury's, or two thirds of petrol stations in the UK. I can say with some confidence that Rich Energy is not sold in those supermarkets, and that there are not 6000 high-end exclusive bars and nightclubs to make up that shortfall.

Oh and from the few images of cans I've seen, they say 'Made in Austria' on them, which is a bit of an issue when you're promoting your high tech British factory.

skwdenyer

6,669 posts

179 months

Monday 4th March
quotequote all
DanielSan said:
Don't be coming in here with sensible points and opinions. You have to just have a stereotype in your head and assume that what's in your head and your head only is fact...
smile
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C Lee Farquar

2,347 posts

155 months

Monday 4th March
quotequote all
If not premium, it's certainly exclusive. I've yet to see a can for sale.

I'm still perplexed and seeing someone wearing one of their jackets, deep in the Basque area of the Pyrenees last September.

skwdenyer

6,669 posts

179 months

Monday 4th March
quotequote all
ukaskew said:
The Premium and Luxury and Exclusivity angle is all well and good, but then, directly from Rich Energy themselves...

- 90 million cans made
- In 6000 UK outlets

Those are some numbers, I'll say that. For context, 6000 UK outlets is equivalent to being sold in every single Tesco, Asda, Morrisons and Sainsbury's, or two thirds of petrol stations in the UK. I can say with some confidence that Rich Energy is not sold in those supermarkets, and that there are not 6000 high-end exclusive bars and nightclubs to make up that shortfall.

Oh and from the few images of cans I've seen, they say 'Made in Austria' on them, which is a bit of an issue when you're promoting your high tech British factory.
Oh, very much +1 from me. Just because I can identify that there might be a position for such a brand, and even imagine how the relevant demographic might be addressed, doesn't mean that I buy everything they're dishing-out right now.

In some ways, it almost feels like Saturday afternoon British wrestling with Big Daddy and Giant Haystacks up against WWF. I wish them well, it is just that the whole thing seems to lack a certain "something" - their website copy sounds like it was penned by one of the characters on The Archers rather than a crack international squad of content specialists, for instance!

Re the "Made in Austria" thing, their website talks of water from an Alpine spring, and a manufacturing plant in an unspecified location, but that their cans are made in the UK ... and...

If you visit http://www.richenergy.co.nl which is the face of Rich Energy Nederland BV they claim cans also made in Austria. That site also claims the whole thing kicked off with Storey meeting an Austrian scientist 6 years ago.

Something about the NL entity is odd. If you back-check the VAT number provided it comes back to BLOCK BOUW B.V. and not Rich Energy. Somebody more interested than me might want to spend a few Euro to get some company information there - it isn't free like the UK's Companies House now is.

Now, a Redditer bought some drink and posted an image of the back of the can: https://imgur.com/gallery/kXUow9R

Interestingly the can states "(c) 2015 RICH D.O.O" - what's that? That's a company registered in Croatia - http://www.hoovers.com/company-information/cs/comp...

That company owns a trademark for the term "Rich" on energy drinks - https://trademarks.justia.com/791/87/rich-79187972...

A bit more digging turns up https://hr.kompass.com/c/rich-d-o-o/hr473904/[/url... - Dinko is the diminuitive of Dominik, but that doesn't help.

It may be a coincidence (given William Storey's background in boxing and boxing promotion) that Top Sports Consulting in Bosnia is run by Serb Vladica Lemić but through apparently younger-brother Zoran Lemić's Bosnia-registered limited company. *IF* (big if) there's a relationship there, there are questions about that family - https://www.nacional.hr/football-leaks-massive-tax...

I could go on, but the folks over on Reddit have done quite a lot more digging: https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/aqjetw/...

As for their claims, I think we can break those down a bit more:

- £50m manufacturing facility is their white-label producer (several suggestions on the Reddit link as to who that is)
- 50m / 90m cans is probably from the same source (their recipe could just be a generic one, so he claims the total production of the generic as his own?)
- cans made in the UK - yes, probably, from a global can manufacturer
- met an Austrian scientist (per the .nl site) - probably the guy from the white label manufacturer
- available in 43 countries - is that just where Amazon UK will ship to? perhaps the total number of countries (excluding the UK) in "Europe" per the UN (I can easily see somebody Googling that...)

We know that Starzinger are the manufacturer - https://www.importgenius.com/importers/rich-energy - and that they've shipped at least about 86k units to the USA (in that shipment, at least).

The other interesting thing is a mention in the Panama Papers at https://transparint.com/documents/Panama_Papers_En... for "Rich Energy International Co., Limited" and "RICH ENERGY INTERNATIONAL LTD" - wonder if they're related?

There's also a "Rich Energy PTE Ltd" in Singapore per https://www.sgpbusiness.com/company/Rich-Energy-Pt...

Also interesting is that "Rich Energy International Ltd" seems to be / have been a ready-made company in Hong Kong, incorporated in 2010 per https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&a... - and that the Rich Energy cans say "est MMX" which might just be another coincidence.

Some of the offshore Rich Energy entities turn up in the Panama Papers, but that might be a coincidence too.

Re the Croatian Rich Energy, it looks like it launched in Croatia in 2011 or perhaps earlier. There was an attempt to market that in the USA in around 2013:

courtesy of https://web.archive.org/web/20131101123110/http://...

For a bit more info on some of their attempts, see http://www.dailynebraskan.com/culture/rich-lounge-...

The current lot have set up various Facebook pages - Australasia for one and, rather more niche, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines - https://www.facebook.com/Rich-Energy-Drink-SVG-237...

I must say that the US seems to be trying to do something semi-serious with all of this: https://www.richenergy.us

Anyhow, enough of this madness... to mis-quote Arthur C Clarke:

Two possibilities exist: either Rich Energy is a scam, or they are serious. Both are equally terrifying...

ukaskew

4,726 posts

160 months

Monday 4th March
quotequote all
skwdenyer said:
Oh, very much +1 from me. Just because I can identify that there might be a position for such a brand, and even imagine how the relevant demographic might be addressed, doesn't mean that I buy everything they're dishing-out right now.
I’m surprised no F1 journalist with time to kill over the winter break didn’t decide to spend a couple of days investigating the claims, particularly any made specifically at the F1 launch, it would have made for a good read. It’s pretty easy to start picking holes in their claims, but aside from just quoting the Rich Energy chaps annoyance that people were doubting him, nobody (to my knowledge) actually pursued it any further. Just comparing the West Ham Ladies sponsorship launch vs. the Haas one throws up a whole bunch of issues and inconsistencies to investigate (or at least highlight). Reddit users seem to have put more effort in than anyone actually reporting on F1.

Dermot O'Logical

594 posts

68 months

Monday 4th March
quotequote all
Don't the FIA conduct a form of Due Diligence on team owners and backers in some form? Past events, with team owners and sponsors turning out to be less than blemish free portray the sport in an unfavourable light, and quickly create the wrong sort of global headline news. Although the same doesn't necessarily apply to the governments of countries hosting Grands Prix. Perhaps Formula 1 is where all of the laundered money ends up. It has to go somewhere.

Looking on the bright side, Haas have the wherewithal to support the team should Rich Energy turn into some kind of "Emperor's New Clothes" debacle.

The last thing that Formula 1 needs right now is another Andrea Moda. Or Force India.

tigerkoi

2,588 posts

137 months

Monday 4th March
quotequote all
Dermot O'Logical said:
Don't the FIA conduct a form of Due Diligence on team owners and backers in some form? Past events, with team owners and sponsors turning out to be less than blemish free portray the sport in an unfavourable light, and quickly create the wrong sort of global headline news. Although the same doesn't necessarily apply to the governments of countries hosting Grands Prix. Perhaps Formula 1 is where all of the laundered money ends up. It has to go somewhere.

Looking on the bright side, Haas have the wherewithal to support the team should Rich Energy turn into some kind of "Emperor's New Clothes" debacle.

The last thing that Formula 1 needs right now is another Andrea Moda. Or Force India.
Gene Haas himself has done “time” for tax evasion and associated witness intimidation.



malks222

895 posts

78 months

Monday 4th March
quotequote all
rallycross said:
petop said:
You can buy the drink on Amazon !
Good luck with that, but if you are daft enough to press PAY for item don't expect to receive anything anytime soon!
it tells me I can have my case of it delivered tonight between 6-10pm........ is it worth a gamble?!?! I mean amazon have a good returns policy.

Kraken

782 posts

139 months

Monday 4th March
quotequote all
The Moose said:
Because customers of premium products don’t generally buy energy drinks.
I must have strange friends then as they drink Red Bull by the gallon and are very much premium product customers.

Some Gump

10,730 posts

125 months

Monday 4th March
quotequote all
ukaskew said:
I’m surprised no F1 journalist with time to kill over the winter break didn’t decide to spend a couple of days investigating the claims, particularly any made specifically at the F1 launch, it would have made for a good read. It’s pretty easy to start picking holes in their claims, but aside from just quoting the Rich Energy chaps annoyance that people were doubting him, nobody (to my knowledge) actually pursued it any further. Just comparing the West Ham Ladies sponsorship launch vs. the Haas one throws up a whole bunch of issues and inconsistencies to investigate (or at least highlight). Reddit users seem to have put more effort in than anyone actually reporting on F1.
Why would they? They report on sport, not companies. If they go on the attack of Haas' sponsor, they alienate themselves from Haas and also probably others - why would any team want a relationship with a journo who puts tabloid style headlines above the sporting aspect?

DanielSan

13,796 posts

106 months

Monday 4th March
quotequote all
Some Gump said:
ukaskew said:
I’m surprised no F1 journalist with time to kill over the winter break didn’t decide to spend a couple of days investigating the claims, particularly any made specifically at the F1 launch, it would have made for a good read. It’s pretty easy to start picking holes in their claims, but aside from just quoting the Rich Energy chaps annoyance that people were doubting him, nobody (to my knowledge) actually pursued it any further. Just comparing the West Ham Ladies sponsorship launch vs. the Haas one throws up a whole bunch of issues and inconsistencies to investigate (or at least highlight). Reddit users seem to have put more effort in than anyone actually reporting on F1.
Why would they? They report on sport, not companies. If they go on the attack of Haas' sponsor, they alienate themselves from Haas and also probably others - why would any team want a relationship with a journo who puts tabloid style headlines above the sporting aspect?
It'd be career suicide and let's face it, isn't really anything to do with their form of journalism. They report on sport news not the commercial agreements.

The Moose

17,313 posts

148 months

Monday 4th March
quotequote all
Kraken said:
The Moose said:
Because customers of premium products don’t generally buy energy drinks.
I must have strange friends then as they drink Red Bull by the gallon and are very much premium product customers.
Based on your comment and the assertion that I was stereotyping, I did a little research for energy drink demographic data. Quickly, the only brand demographics I found were Red Bull.

http://snapshot.numerator.com/brand/red_bull

You'll note that as the age increases, consumption lowers.
You'll also note that as the income increases, consumption also lowers.

The demographic of Red Bull appears to be younger people or those on lower income.

I don't know the market too well, but know that when I was employing Polish trades people in the UK, they all drank Shark (at least, I think it was Shark) or some such other energy drink due to the cost.

I think it's clear that premium product customers don't generally consume energy drinks (although there will of course be some).

Dynamic Space Wizard

351 posts

43 months

Monday 4th March
quotequote all
DanielSan said:
Some Gump said:
ukaskew said:
I’m surprised no F1 journalist with time to kill over the winter break didn’t decide to spend a couple of days investigating the claims, particularly any made specifically at the F1 launch, it would have made for a good read. It’s pretty easy to start picking holes in their claims, but aside from just quoting the Rich Energy chaps annoyance that people were doubting him, nobody (to my knowledge) actually pursued it any further. Just comparing the West Ham Ladies sponsorship launch vs. the Haas one throws up a whole bunch of issues and inconsistencies to investigate (or at least highlight). Reddit users seem to have put more effort in than anyone actually reporting on F1.
Why would they? They report on sport, not companies. If they go on the attack of Haas' sponsor, they alienate themselves from Haas and also probably others - why would any team want a relationship with a journo who puts tabloid style headlines above the sporting aspect?
It'd be career suicide and let's face it, isn't really anything to do with their form of journalism. They report on sport news not the commercial agreements.
There's no room for the truth in journalism.

tigerkoi

2,588 posts

137 months

Monday 4th March
quotequote all
DanielSan said:
Some Gump said:
ukaskew said:
I’m surprised no F1 journalist with time to kill over the winter break didn’t decide to spend a couple of days investigating the claims, particularly any made specifically at the F1 launch, it would have made for a good read. It’s pretty easy to start picking holes in their claims, but aside from just quoting the Rich Energy chaps annoyance that people were doubting him, nobody (to my knowledge) actually pursued it any further. Just comparing the West Ham Ladies sponsorship launch vs. the Haas one throws up a whole bunch of issues and inconsistencies to investigate (or at least highlight). Reddit users seem to have put more effort in than anyone actually reporting on F1.
Why would they? They report on sport, not companies. If they go on the attack of Haas' sponsor, they alienate themselves from Haas and also probably others - why would any team want a relationship with a journo who puts tabloid style headlines above the sporting aspect?
It'd be career suicide and let's face it, isn't really anything to do with their form of journalism. They report on sport news not the commercial agreements.
I agree with you in terms of it being harder to maintain relationships if the probing is considered by the teams and players to be unwarranted or uncomfortable. Fair enough. But that’s just the nature of good journalism. Balancing relationships but getting the juicy stuff.

However this sport we call F1, its half about racing actual cars, and the other about the politics of it all. It’s the most politicised (arguably) major sport in the world. Saying anything less is a bit disingenuous.

Many who do report on F1 will naturally have limited knowledge of business matters if they’ve focussed their whole career on the actual sporting side - but then I’d argue that many of them (Saward included) should up their game as their journalism therefore needs to adequately cover the whole, not part, of what F1 actually is all about.

JonChalk

Original Poster:

1,491 posts

49 months

Monday 4th March
quotequote all
malks222 said:
it tells me I can have my case of it delivered tonight between 6-10pm........ is it worth a gamble?!?! I mean amazon have a good returns policy.
That creates a dilemma; drink all 24 cans of an unknown parentage (variously reported as having an odd and/or cabbagey aftertaste, I think I read on one Amazon review) or pour it down the drain?

Some Gump

10,730 posts

125 months

Monday 4th March
quotequote all
The Moose said:
Based on your comment and the assertion that I was stereotyping, I did a little research for energy drink demographic data. Quickly, the only brand demographics I found were Red Bull.

http://snapshot.numerator.com/brand/red_bull

You'll note that as the age increases, consumption lowers.
You'll also note that as the income increases, consumption also lowers.

The demographic of Red Bull appears to be younger people or those on lower income.
.
Well that's bloody obvious! When the demographic is the young, you'll find that the young tend not to earn very much!
How many under 24's are on >40k? Oxbridge graduates? People who studied in LSE? The link is correlation not causation.

Red Bull remains premium within it's sector. It costs more than the others. The can is smaller. You rarely see it on promo but very frequently Relentless, Monster and Rockstar are.

As the other guy said above, premium / high end is relative within a sector. It can be a premium product without it being quaffed by Posh and becks, in the same way that many other things would be premium / high end in their sectors precisely because they do not appeal to people like Posh and Becks!

CoolHands

9,223 posts

134 months

Monday 4th March
quotequote all
Can’t believe anyone regularly drinks that kind of st.