The Official F1 2020 silly season *contains speculation*

[Exige77]

A quick google suggests Ilmore had an F1 2 stroke in the 60s which was banned.

[thegreenhell]

Exige77 said:

It probably won’t be a two stroke as we know it.

Maybe follow the bang each cycle principle but will have separate lubrication system, direct injection, some sort of valving and even opposed pistons on a single bore.

Lots of interesting variables.

That sounds like the old Napier Deltic locomotive engine.

[TheDeuce]

thegreenhell said:

That sounds like the old Napier Deltic locomotive engine.

Could it be a deltic layout? That was originally developed to increase ptw ratio... Would make some sense for F1 use possibly? A miniaturised deltic.

Probably dreaming but would certainly be interesting to see such a design reimagined.

[JonChalk]

TheDeuce said:

thegreenhell said:

That sounds like the old Napier Deltic locomotive engine.

Could it be a deltic layout? That was originally developed to increase ptw ratio... Would make some sense for F1 use possibly? A miniaturised deltic.

Probably dreaming but would certainly be interesting to see such a design reimagined.

Electric power does low down torque for max acceleration. High-revving 2-stroke takes over for power at high speed.

Interesting.

[anonymous-user]

Exige77 said:

A quick google suggests Ilmore had an F1 2 stroke in the 60s which was banned.

Neat trick considering ilmor didn't exist until 1984.

[TheDeuce]

JonChalk said:

Electric power does low down torque for max acceleration. High-revving 2-stroke takes over for power at high speed.

Interesting.

If nothing else it would be a good way to take the step of getting a motor onto the transmission of an F1 car and pave the way for full electric in the future.

I feel getting the motor in position would be a bit more palletable to many fans if it was done while an ICE remained, at least initially.

[Exige77]

jsf said:

Exige77 said:

A quick google suggests Ilmore had an F1 2 stroke in the 60s which was banned.

Neat trick considering ilmor didn't exist until 1984.

I think your right. Further Googling suggests they came up with a rotary valve engine which was banned and a 5 stroke engine that was never adapted.

[MissChief]

I’m sure Formula E has a unique ‘all electric’ deal for a great many years. 2040 or 2050 even. That’s a very long time. By 2030 we could be looking at the majority of cars sold having all electric power. By 2040 internal combustion engines could be banned from sale altogether.

Off to google it.

Found it. https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/137961/f1-needs-...

Agag said:

Formula E has an exclusive deal for 25 seasons.

Edited by MissChief on Saturday 11th January 17:06

[TheDeuce]

MissChief said:

I’m sure Formula E has a unique ‘all electric’ deal for a great many years. 2040 or 2050 even. That’s a very long time. By 2030 we could be looking at the majority of cars sold having all electric power. By 2040 internal combustion engines could be banned from sale altogether.

Off to google it.

I'd be interested to know the FE length of agreement too. And how it's defined.

I think 2040 is the last year any car producing country at least in Europe is able to build or sell an ICE car. That fact alone means people will be wary of future values of ICE cars long before that date. Things will indeed start to shift very fast very soon. One way or another that's got to be a factor for F1, it can't be ignored and I'm sure it isn't being ignored.

As an aside, myself and my business partner just ordered an i-pace each as a company car. I can't pretend we're led by eco concerns, but the BIK tax for company cars is zero from April this year for all electric cars... It makes them cheaper for us than a midrange diesel VW golf

I'm guessing lots of similar schemes and incentives around the world exist and will get the transition underway a little faster than many expect. For us it was an absolute no brainer.

[Teddy Lop]

MissChief said:

I’m sure Formula E has a unique ‘all electric’ deal for a great many years. 2040 or 2050 even. That’s a very long time. By 2030 we could be looking at the majority of cars sold having all electric power. By 2040 internal combustion engines could be banned from sale altogether.

Off to google it.

Found it. https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/137961/f1-needs-...

Agag said:

Formula E has an exclusive deal for 25 seasons.

Edited by MissChief on Saturday 11th January 17:06

lol, I think formula 1 will do precisely as it pleases including (although I hope to god not) go fully electric and those behind formula e will find themselves about as effective as a fart in a hurricane at stopping it...

Although, I guess it's mentions for his little race series...

[Deesee]

Formula e car average race pace is 100kph, Formula one average race pace is 200kph.

Can’t see a formula e car doing 305 km in under 2 hours just yet, Grand Prix standard is F1.

F1 cars are circa 3x more powerful too.

(Without the need to bring several hundred diesel generators into a city centre to charge the things).

[TheDeuce]

Deesee said:

Formula e car average race pace is 100kph, Formula one average race pace is 200kph.

Can’t see a formula e car doing 305 km in under 2 hours just yet, Grand Prix standard is F1.

F1 cars are circa 3x more powerful too.

(Without the need to bring several hundred diesel generators into a city centre to charge the things).

All electric F1 is impossible until solid state cells are available. When they are, anything still using ICE will be slower than it should or could be. F1 will have little choice at that point, unless it wishes to become a classic race series and let FE become the new top tier. Not exactly my first choice!!

The time frame for solid state cells is unknown, although enough billions to buy a small country are being pumped in which suggests the end is in sight.. Even those that think all electric F1 is the devils work will celebrate better battery technology though, their phones will charge in minutes and last all week. It's a world changing technology that the world is beyond desperate for at this point.

[Deesee]

Formula e car is 300kg heaver at the start (410kg at the end). Has roughly 1/2 the top end max speed is 1 second slower 0 to 100kph, can’t measure 100 to 350kph because it can’t do it.

To be honest a couple of stripped out Tesla’s would not be a million miles away on a fast lap performance.

They would have to lose an awful lot of weight and gain a huge amount of power..

Anyway I’m off to register formula H...and possibly Tesla touring cars..

[Teddy Lop]

Deesee said:

Formula e car is 300kg heaver at the start (410kg at the end). Has roughly 1/2 the top end max speed is 1 second slower 0 to 100kph, can’t measure 100 to 350kph because it can’t do it.

To be honest a couple of stripped out Tesla’s would not be a million miles away on a fast lap performance.

They would have to lose an awful lot of weight and gain a huge amount of power..

Anyway I’m off to register formula H...and possibly Tesla touring cars..

f-e also start a race with a 54kwh 250kg battery.... Which is what you get from about 4 litres of petrol... If I'm correct an F1 car can pack over 1300kwh on the grid!

[TheDeuce]

Deesee said:

Formula e car is 300kg heaver at the start (410kg at the end). Has roughly 1/2 the top end max speed is 1 second slower 0 to 100kph, can’t measure 100 to 350kph because it can’t do it.

To be honest a couple of stripped out Tesla’s would not be a million miles away on a fast lap performance.

They would have to lose an awful lot of weight and gain a huge amount of power..

Anyway I’m off to register formula H...and possibly Tesla touring cars..

Yea Formula E is a bit of none starter for me, the technology just isn't there to make the cars peform as racing cars should, far too heavy and until that is solved then objectively speaking, ICE remains the best solution. FE's objective isn't to define the best cars for the job though, it's to alter perceptions etc. Not for me, but I get it. Also I do watch some races and there is some good racing.

Solid state will at least double cell density* making the combination of battery and motor(s) equivalent to ICE weight and capable of running a real race distance. That's the obvious tipping point, when electric can be shown to out-perform ICE on every metric (bar sound )

*commercial cells aim to double cell density, the technology itself is proven to go some way beyond that so special (expensive) cells for motorsport could likely be a notch above what ends up in cars, phones and drones.

[anonymous-user]

TheDeuce said:

MissChief said:

I’m sure Formula E has a unique ‘all electric’ deal for a great many years. 2040 or 2050 even. That’s a very long time. By 2030 we could be looking at the majority of cars sold having all electric power. By 2040 internal combustion engines could be banned from sale altogether.

Off to google it.

I'd be interested to know the FE length of agreement too. And how it's defined.

I think 2040 is the last year any car producing country at least in Europe is able to build or sell an ICE car. That fact alone means people will be wary of future values of ICE cars long before that date. Things will indeed start to shift very fast very soon. One way or another that's got to be a factor for F1, it can't be ignored and I'm sure it isn't being ignored.

As an aside, myself and my business partner just ordered an i-pace each as a company car. I can't pretend we're led by eco concerns, but the BIK tax for company cars is zero from April this year for all electric cars... It makes them cheaper for us than a midrange diesel VW golf

I'm guessing lots of similar schemes and incentives around the world exist and will get the transition underway a little faster than many expect. For us it was an absolute no brainer.

So what happened to:

‘As a result of my encounter, I called my local Porsche dealer - it's not a done deal just yet, I have to figure some stuff out and honestly the price is a stretch... But with the BIK tax as it is set to be when deliveries begin, this is maybe my chance to have something I normally could not. I'm going to sleep on it, but hand on heart I can't imagine I will be able to hold off putting pre-order money down very soon. Which, if anyone is interested, is 100% refundable up until the point a build slot is offered and accepted. In the UK the pre-order deposit is £5k.

This is more than I hoped the car would cost, and way more than I originally expected to spend on an EV. But there simply isn't anything else EV in the performance segment (as in power, brakes, chassis, centre of gravity) for less.’

[TheDeuce]

REALIST123 said:

So what happened to:

‘As a result of my encounter, I called my local Porsche dealer - it's not a done deal just yet, I have to figure some stuff out and honestly the price is a stretch... But with the BIK tax as it is set to be when deliveries begin, this is maybe my chance to have something I normally could not. I'm going to sleep on it, but hand on heart I can't imagine I will be able to hold off putting pre-order money down very soon. Which, if anyone is interested, is 100% refundable up until the point a build slot is offered and accepted. In the UK the pre-order deposit is £5k.

This is more than I hoped the car would cost, and way more than I originally expected to spend on an EV. But there simply isn't anything else EV in the performance segment (as in power, brakes, chassis, centre of gravity) for less.’

It was just too expensive Vs the lease deals jlr could offer. The taycan demand far outstrips their production capability. The killer blow: only initial pre order customers have any possibility of having the car around the time the new BIK rates apply which is crucial, as the lease/hp also needs to end around the same time in three years when BIK is very likely to shoot up again.

In the end the Porsche headline price was about £10k more but without the lease deals the real cost was double the Jag, and also the undefined build time.. We are both very sad as we would have loved to have been one of the first to own a genuine sporty EV, it's a sore point. We tried every way to bend the numbers and make it work.

Edited by TheDeuce on Saturday 11th January 19:52

[C Lee Farquar]

Oh dear, insufficient funds allocated to run a performance car?

I trust you will be following your own advice and immediately offering your business for sale?

[TheDeuce]

C Lee Farquar said:

Oh dear, insufficient funds allocated to run a performance car?

I trust you will be following your own advice and immediately offering your business for sale?

What are you on about? The car is a result of the business, not a factor in its success. Sorry, you've lost me there.

Anyway yes, insufficient funds, we can't afford the taycans. I was hopeful of some lease deals as is so often the case with new cars but it wasn't to be.

[anonymous-user]

TheDeuce said:

What are you on about? The car is a result of the business, not a factor in its success. Sorry, you've lost me there.

Anyway yes, insufficient funds, we can't afford the taycans. I was hopeful of some lease deals as is so often the case with new cars but it wasn't to be.

He was being funny.

If it really needs explaining, he’s comparing you with having a business that can’t afford to run a class leading car with Williams who can’t afford to build and run a class leading car and who you have suggested need new management.

It’s only a joke but not a bad one as it goes.