The Official F1 2020 silly season *contains speculation*

The Official F1 2020 silly season *contains speculation*

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Discussion

Teppic

7,317 posts

256 months

Tuesday 10th December 2019
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Dermot O'Logical said:
Or about to be lapped?
Nope. Leading on merit at the 2007 European Grand Prix.

The race started dry, but rain was anticipated. Markus Winkelhock pitted for wet tyres at the end of the warm-up lap as the rain was now imminent, and started from the pit lane. During the first lap it started to rain, sooner and more heavily than most teams had expected. A number of drivers lost control, and many pitted at the end of the lap to change into intermediate-weather tyres. Leader Kimi Räikkönen attempted to pit, but lost grip and ran wide, having to do an extra lap on dry tyres and dropping to seventh place. Winkelhock thus found himself in the lead as a result of his early gamble, the first time that a Spyker had led a Grand Prix.

Some drivers had stayed out in the hope that the rain would stop, but it worsened, such that full wet tyres were required, rather than intermediates. Winkelhock had a huge advantage as the only driver on the right tyres, and led the race by 33 seconds ahead of Felipe Massa and Fernando Alonso, who had pitted at the end of lap one along with other drivers.

Exitleft

930 posts

223 months

Tuesday 10th December 2019
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Teppic said:
Nope. Leading on merit at the 2007 European Grand Prix.

The race started dry, but rain was anticipated. Markus Winkelhock pitted for wet tyres at the end of the warm-up lap as the rain was now imminent, and started from the pit lane. During the first lap it started to rain, sooner and more heavily than most teams had expected. A number of drivers lost control, and many pitted at the end of the lap to change into intermediate-weather tyres. Leader Kimi Räikkönen attempted to pit, but lost grip and ran wide, having to do an extra lap on dry tyres and dropping to seventh place. Winkelhock thus found himself in the lead as a result of his early gamble, the first time that a Spyker had led a Grand Prix.

Some drivers had stayed out in the hope that the rain would stop, but it worsened, such that full wet tyres were required, rather than intermediates. Winkelhock had a huge advantage as the only driver on the right tyres, and led the race by 33 seconds ahead of Felipe Massa and Fernando Alonso, who had pitted at the end of lap one along with other drivers.
Yes - and he only ever started one F1 race in his career but managed to lead the race. An exciting race for Spyker fans..

SpudLink

5,669 posts

191 months

Wednesday 11th December 2019
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Thanks for that. I knew Markus Winkelhock had once led a race, but couldn’t remember the circumstances.

thegreenhell

15,112 posts

218 months

Wednesday 11th December 2019
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Here's the first few laps, up until it was red-flagged.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hxVZvG897U

MissChief

7,095 posts

167 months

Wednesday 11th December 2019
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thegreenhell said:
Here's the first few laps, up until it was red-flagged.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hxVZvG897U
Murray and Maurice Hamilton didn't even notice that Winkelhock was ahead of Raikkonen before he pitted. If Crofty got that wrong he'd have been criticised and vilified for weeks online.

Edited by MissChief on Thursday 12th December 00:01

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 19th December 2019
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vaud said:
True. Schumacher jumped to Ferrari when they couldn't design a decent car OR run it properly. wink
vaud said:
Duns said:
The 412T2 was a decent effort, but the minimum weights in '95 were probably too low for a V12 to win.
I don't disagree, but that underlines that they had clung on to the V12 concept for too long and not designed an optimum car for the regs.
Not necessarily. If the max allowed cylinder count was 12, why make regulations unfavourable for a safe, winning V12?

Maybe the FIA clung onto a too low minimum weight for too long wink




Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 19th December 14:25

vaud

Original Poster:

50,289 posts

154 months

Thursday 19th December 2019
quotequote all
Duns said:
The 412T2 was a decent effort, but the minimum weights in '95 were probably too low for a V12 to win.
I don't disagree, but that underlines that they had clung on to the V12 concept for too long and not designed an optimum car for the regs.

thegreenhell

15,112 posts

218 months

Thursday 19th December 2019
quotequote all
Duns said:
vaud said:
True. Schumacher jumped to Ferrari when they couldn't design a decent car OR run it properly. wink
The 412T2 was a decent effort, but the minimum weights in '95 were probably too low for a V12 to win.
When he first joined Ferrari, Schumacher tested the 412T2 and commented that he was surprised how good it was considering the results they got with it. I think he he even said that he could have been champion in that car in '95, but that could just have been part of his mind games. Conversely, when Berger and Alesi both tried the Benetton they found it almost undriveable, and at least one of them had a huge crash when testing it at Estoril.

kiseca

9,339 posts

218 months

Thursday 19th December 2019
quotequote all
Duns said:
vaud said:
Duns said:
The 412T2 was a decent effort, but the minimum weights in '95 were probably too low for a V12 to win.
I don't disagree, but that underlines that they had clung on to the V12 concept for too long and not designed an optimum car for the regs.
Not necessarily. If the max allowed cylinder count was 12, why make regulations unfavourable for a safe, winning V12?

Maybe the FIA clung onto a too low minimum weight for too long wink
I'm wondering if 12 cylinder cars (V12s and flat 12s) are the least successful, reasonably commonly used configurations in Formula 1?

Discounting the recent V8 and current turbo V6 eras, where I believe number of cylinders is mandated (I could be wrong), then we've had 4 cylinders winning in the '60s, I think in the '50s, and with Brabham in, well 1983, V6s were dominant in the '80s turbo era and straight 6s in the '50s, V8 is the most successful configuration in Formula 1 history while the DFV absolutely dominated the 70s, and V10s became the ubiquitous choice from the early 1990s.

Lumping V12s and flat 12s together, I'm not sure they've managed to power more champions than even 4 cylinder engines. I must look it up, actually.

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 19th December 2019
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kiseca said:
I'm wondering if 12 cylinder cars (V12s and flat 12s) are the least successful, reasonably commonly used configurations in Formula 1?
The H16 won once. Credit where credit is due wink

kiseca

9,339 posts

218 months

Thursday 19th December 2019
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Duns said:
kiseca said:
I'm wondering if 12 cylinder cars (V12s and flat 12s) are the least successful, reasonably commonly used configurations in Formula 1?
The H16 won once. Credit where credit is due wink
thumbup Damn, I forgot about that win! I always think of the V16 and H16 as total failures!

Except for sound. When it's working, it sounds fabulous, more so than even the Ferrari V12s to my ears.

FourWheelDrift

88,377 posts

283 months

Thursday 19th December 2019
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Both Lauda's 75 & 77 championships and Scheckter's in 79 were with flat 12s. Sheckter's also being the last 12 cylinder championship winning car. Have to go back to 1964 when Surtees drove a 1.5 lt flat 12 in a couple of races alongside the regular 1.5 lt V8 and then back to Fangio title with Maserati in 1957 when he used a V12 occasionally alongside the more common 6 cyl car for any other 12 cylinder success.

Overall on average 12 cylinders has not been the way to go in F1.

kiseca

9,339 posts

218 months

Thursday 19th December 2019
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FourWheelDrift said:
Both Lauda's 75 & 77 championships and Scheckter's in 79 were with flat 12s. Sheckter's also being the last 12 cylinder championship winning car. Have to go back to 1964 when Surtees drove a 1.5 lt flat 12 in a couple of races alongside the regular 1.5 lt V8 and then back to Fangio title with Maserati in 1957 when he used a V12 occasionally alongside the more common 6 cyl car for any other 12 cylinder success.

Overall on average 12 cylinders has not been the way to go in F1.
That's exactly what I was looking for!

The surprise for me there is that it seems a V12 has never won a driver's championship exclusively? It's only ever contributed to one alongside another configuration?

Wait, McLaren used a Honda V12 too. I thought that was in 1989 and 1990 and they then went to V10s, but looks like I have that back to front, and Senna and McLaren won drivers and constructors championships with a V12 in 1991. Not only that, a V12 was also a runner up that same year with Prost in the Ferrari.

If that's the only year V12s won championships, that's quite a shock for me. I thought that the flat 12s would be the less successful of the two but turns out flat 12s did rather better until underfloor aerodynamics made them obsolete.


thegreenhell

15,112 posts

218 months

Thursday 19th December 2019
quotequote all
FourWheelDrift said:
Both Lauda's 75 & 77 championships and Scheckter's in 79 were with flat 12s. Sheckter's also being the last 12 cylinder championship winning car. Have to go back to 1964 when Surtees drove a 1.5 lt flat 12 in a couple of races alongside the regular 1.5 lt V8 and then back to Fangio title with Maserati in 1957 when he used a V12 occasionally alongside the more common 6 cyl car for any other 12 cylinder success.

Overall on average 12 cylinders has not been the way to go in F1.
Don't forget the McLaren-Honda of 1991, when they switched from V10 to V12 for just one year, winning both titles.

thegreenhell

15,112 posts

218 months

Thursday 19th December 2019
quotequote all
kiseca said:
I'm wondering if 12 cylinder cars (V12s and flat 12s) are the least successful, reasonably commonly used configurations in Formula 1?

Discounting the recent V8 and current turbo V6 eras, where I believe number of cylinders is mandated (I could be wrong), then we've had 4 cylinders winning in the '60s, I think in the '50s, and with Brabham in, well 1983, V6s were dominant in the '80s turbo era and straight 6s in the '50s, V8 is the most successful configuration in Formula 1 history while the DFV absolutely dominated the 70s, and V10s became the ubiquitous choice from the early 1990s.

Lumping V12s and flat 12s together, I'm not sure they've managed to power more champions than even 4 cylinder engines. I must look it up, actually.
Championships by cylinder count, prior to 2006, since when cylinder count has been mandated.

# cylinders WCC WDC
4 3 3
6 8 7.5
8 16 24.5
10 16 15
12 5 4


Note that WCC only started in 1958, hence why WDC and WCC totals don't tally.
Fangio's '54 title split between 6 and 8 cylinder, when he used a 6 cyl Maserati to start the year until his Mercedes was ready for the greater part of the season.

FourWheelDrift

88,377 posts

283 months

Thursday 19th December 2019
quotequote all
thegreenhell said:
FourWheelDrift said:
Both Lauda's 75 & 77 championships and Scheckter's in 79 were with flat 12s. Sheckter's also being the last 12 cylinder championship winning car. Have to go back to 1964 when Surtees drove a 1.5 lt flat 12 in a couple of races alongside the regular 1.5 lt V8 and then back to Fangio title with Maserati in 1957 when he used a V12 occasionally alongside the more common 6 cyl car for any other 12 cylinder success.

Overall on average 12 cylinders has not been the way to go in F1.
Don't forget the McLaren-Honda of 1991, when they switched from V10 to V12 for just one year, winning both titles.
Yep, I forgot about that one.

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 19th December 2019
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RedBull-Honda are looking good for next year.

kiseca

9,339 posts

218 months

Thursday 19th December 2019
quotequote all
thegreenhell said:
kiseca said:
I'm wondering if 12 cylinder cars (V12s and flat 12s) are the least successful, reasonably commonly used configurations in Formula 1?

Discounting the recent V8 and current turbo V6 eras, where I believe number of cylinders is mandated (I could be wrong), then we've had 4 cylinders winning in the '60s, I think in the '50s, and with Brabham in, well 1983, V6s were dominant in the '80s turbo era and straight 6s in the '50s, V8 is the most successful configuration in Formula 1 history while the DFV absolutely dominated the 70s, and V10s became the ubiquitous choice from the early 1990s.

Lumping V12s and flat 12s together, I'm not sure they've managed to power more champions than even 4 cylinder engines. I must look it up, actually.
Championships by cylinder count, prior to 2006, since when cylinder count has been mandated.

# cylinders WCC WDC
4 3 3
6 8 7.5
8 16 24.5
10 16 15
12 5 4


Note that WCC only started in 1958, hence why WDC and WCC totals don't tally.
Fangio's '54 title split between 6 and 8 cylinder, when he used a 6 cyl Maserati to start the year until his Mercedes was ready for the greater part of the season.
Thanks for posting that up!

So 4 cylinders are the least successful number.. That's an easier pill to swallow biggrin

ajprice

27,317 posts

195 months

Monday 23rd December 2019
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Contract dates now that Leclerc has signed to Ferrari for 5 years.

Petrus1983

8,521 posts

161 months

Monday 23rd December 2019
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I definitely don’t see Hamilton in a red car now - Ferrari are clearly backing Charles.