Gasley - What's gone wrong?

Gasley - What's gone wrong?

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Discussion

Teddy Lop

1,494 posts

11 months

Tuesday 13th August
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dunc_sx said:
Not in 2018 anyway. Max out qualified DR the majority of the time (as he did in 2017) and finished ahead of him in every race they both completed beyond the 6th race of the season.

That's pretty conclusive in my opinion.

Dunc.

Edited by dunc_sx on Monday 12th August 23:01
Danny DNFd 8 times, usually from high points positions, all mech plus being hit by team mate, max had 1 pure mech DNF.

TheDeuce

2,563 posts

10 months

Tuesday 13th August
quotequote all
Teddy Lop said:
dunc_sx said:
Not in 2018 anyway. Max out qualified DR the majority of the time (as he did in 2017) and finished ahead of him in every race they both completed beyond the 6th race of the season.

That's pretty conclusive in my opinion.

Dunc.

Edited by dunc_sx on Monday 12th August 23:01
Danny DNFd 8 times, usually from high points positions, all mech plus being hit by team mate, max had 1 pure mech DNF.
Absolutely. Overall, DR was the points scorer when he was paired with Max. The fact last season was farcical for DR takes away from a lot of his good work on track, when he was often ahead of max.

Max last year was indeed stronger during qualifying but if it were not for the dnfs DR's ability to overtake and make up lost ground would have at least seen him draw equal overall.

Some drivers are excellent over one lap, max has that talent. DR's strength lies in his ability to stay cool throughout a race and make up places reliably - race after race, generally without incident.

Two different but imo very close drivers that together this season would have formed a very difficult combination of talents for Ferrari to combat.

Edited by TheDeuce on Tuesday 13th August 07:53

dunc_sx

1,018 posts

141 months

Tuesday 13th August
quotequote all
Teddy Lop said:
Danny DNFd 8 times, usually from high points positions, all mech plus being hit by team mate, max had 1 pure mech DNF.
So how come he couldn't finish above Max when he didn't have a DNF in 2018? (with the exception of the first 6 races when it was Crashstappen).

If he was quicker/better in races he would have been finishing higher than him when he did finish surely?

My recollection of the 2018 red bull drivers was as soon as MV stopped crashing DR couldn't keep up - That's just my recollection though and only my opinion - Not trying to be a keyboard warrior laugh

Dunc.


Edited by dunc_sx on Tuesday 13th August 08:29

glazbagun

9,764 posts

141 months

Tuesday 13th August
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CoolHands said:
They just want someone to pick up more points than Gasly. I don’t think they need, want or care for the driver to be matching Max. Horner clearly said they want more points from the number 2 to get ahead of Ferrari.
I think Hungary especially showed how much you lose when you don't have a teammate a useful distance from your leader to mess up your rivals. Would Mercedes have dared pit Lewis if it would have him stuck behind Ricciardo and Max when he left the pits? I doubt it- they had nothing to lose as it was.

TheDeuce

2,563 posts

10 months

Tuesday 13th August
quotequote all
dunc_sx said:
Teddy Lop said:
Danny DNFd 8 times, usually from high points positions, all mech plus being hit by team mate, max had 1 pure mech DNF.
So how come he couldn't finish above Max when he didn't have a DNF in 2018? (with the exception of the first 6 races when it was Crashstappen).

If he was quicker/better in races he would have been finishing higher than him when he did finish surely?

My recollection of the 2018 red bull drivers was as soon as MV stopped crashing DR couldn't keep up - That's just my recollection though and only my opinion - Not trying to be a keyboard warrior laugh

Dunc.


Edited by dunc_sx on Tuesday 13th August 08:29
Several of the times he did DNF he was ahead, that's my recollection at least - I certainly remember quite a few occasions when he DNF'd and it was genuinely upsetting as he had been running very well and on track for high points/podium finish. Maybe someone else will have the time to go through each race report and crunch the numbers - I don't but without doubt DR being let down by machinery not talent was very much a story of last season.

I think the only confusion here is that somewhat cruelly, the DNF's occurred most when he was running very well. Simple bad luck in other words. If such bad luck leads Max to DNF mostly when it doesn't matter and DR to DNF mostly when it does matter, that isn't really a fair test of ability.

All we know for sure, was that in the majority of races where they both finished, DR had more podiums, points and an equal number of wins.

This article contains a useful chart of their time together, it only covers up to race four of last season, although beyond that DR DNF'd every second race so not much point taking anything from that period: https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11363892/d...


moffspeed

872 posts

151 months

Tuesday 13th August
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I feel pretty sorry for the guy but R.B. have always been ruthless when it comes to replacing light bulbs (a Bernie expression). His career reminds me a bit of that of Pascal Wehrlein - and Formula E will probably be his final destination also.

In Hungary Gasly was mired in traffic and M.V. had his last minute stop for a balls out FL. Despite this Gasly , in an undamaged car, setting the 12th best race lap in a Red Bull was never going to go down well - nearly 4 seconds off Max’s banzai lap but more representatively 2.5 seconds off Lewis’s pace and a second and a half adrift of Seb.

Gasly set his fastest time on lap 65. Albon happened to be quickest on this lap also - just over four tenths quicker than Gasly...

dunc_sx

1,018 posts

141 months

Tuesday 13th August
quotequote all
Yeah I guess looking over the entire 3 years (I'd forgotten about 2016 completely!) it does make Max look pretty average but the point I'm probably failing to make well is MV's driving changed very much for the better part of the way through 2018. At this point in my opinion DR couldn't compete with him. Ignoring the any DNF's for DR which undoubtedly caused a massive hit in his points tally for the year MV was getting the better of him on track (when they both finished the race).

Here's the results table for the red bull guys in 2018, after the 6th race you can see MV was finishing higher up the order in every race they both finished. I think when MV finished crashing all the time he really did turn into a fair force to be reckoned with and his reputation/respect has grown due to this in the eyes of many.

https://www.f1-fansite.com/f1-results/2018-f1-cham...

Anyway this has nothing to do with Gasley now so I'll shut up and accept everyone has a different opinion on things beer

Dunc.






The Surveyor

6,783 posts

181 months

Tuesday 13th August
quotequote all
dunc_sx said:
Teddy Lop said:
Danny DNFd 8 times, usually from high points positions, all mech plus being hit by team mate, max had 1 pure mech DNF.
So how come he couldn't finish above Max when he didn't have a DNF in 2018? (with the exception of the first 6 races when it was Crashstappen).

If he was quicker/better in races he would have been finishing higher than him when he did finish surely?

My recollection of the 2018 red bull drivers was as soon as MV stopped crashing DR couldn't keep up - That's just my recollection though and only my opinion - Not trying to be a keyboard warrior laugh

Dunc.
And this year, Max has certainly matured in his race-craft and has got significantly faster as a result. DR looks like he reached the limit of his potential a couple of years ago.

TheDeuce

2,563 posts

10 months

Tuesday 13th August
quotequote all
dunc_sx said:
Yeah I guess looking over the entire 3 years (I'd forgotten about 2016 completely!) it does make Max look pretty average but the point I'm probably failing to make well is MV's driving changed very much for the better part of the way through 2018. At this point in my opinion DR couldn't compete with him. Ignoring the any DNF's for DR which undoubtedly caused a massive hit in his points tally for the year MV was getting the better of him on track (when they both finished the race).

Here's the results table for the red bull guys in 2018, after the 6th race you can see MV was finishing higher up the order in every race they both finished. I think when MV finished crashing all the time he really did turn into a fair force to be reckoned with and his reputation/respect has grown due to this in the eyes of many.

https://www.f1-fansite.com/f1-results/2018-f1-cham...

Anyway this has nothing to do with Gasley now so I'll shut up and accept everyone has a different opinion on things beer

Dunc.





Yes but in several of the races where DR did DNF later in the season he would have finished higher. Hence, bad luck played it's parts. If we could re-run that season with zero DNF's I think the results would be close enough to say that although both drivers are different, their overall ability to take points was about the same.

Max has improved steadily, so has DR upto last year at least. We don't really know how useful Renault has been for continued improvement as a driver.

To take it back to Gasly.. however we each compare max to DR it's clear that DR was at least good enough for a second driver for the team, if not as good (although I think he probably was as good). This is what red bull need to beat Ferrari, and it's what Gasly couldn't deliver. Albon now has to prove he can deliver the same in a very short - a fairly huge task, he basically has to show he's good enough to take around 80% the points that max takes next season, which based on this season is what it would have taken to beat Ferrari. That means the new kid has to show he can catch and pass Ferrari's this season.

Supersam83

291 posts

89 months

Tuesday 13th August
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Well didn't Max win his first race when he moved up to the main Red Bull team.

So if Albon doesn't win in Spa then it's a failure lol laugh

768

4,731 posts

40 months

Tuesday 13th August
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moffspeed said:
Gasly set his fastest time on lap 65. Albon happened to be quickest on this lap also - just over four tenths quicker than Gasly...
Gasly possibly would have been better off in the TR. wobble

Race 2018 Toro Rosso 2019 Red Bull
Australia 11 DNF
Bahrain 8 4
China 6 18
Azerbaijan DNF 12
Spain 6 DNF
Monaco 5 7
Canada 8 11
France 10 DNF
Austria 7 11
GB 4 13
Germany DNF 14
Hungary 6 6

Fundoreen

836 posts

27 months

Tuesday 13th August
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I dont think redbull want to lose drivers easily anymore so they probably put a good case to gastly that his career would go on longer back at torro rosso where he was doing a good job.
Worth remembering Kvyat outscored ricciardo in his first season at red bull in 2015.
Ricciardo had previously handed 4x wc vettel a drubbing in 2014.
Somehow they seem to have mismanaged kyvats potential. Probably due to vettels 'torpedo' sniping from his cozy ferrari seat.
Maybe if albon does about the same as gastly in the car kvyat gets the call next year.

Alfa numeric

2,959 posts

123 months

Tuesday 13th August
quotequote all
Fundoreen said:
Maybe if albon does about the same as gastly in the car kvyat gets the call next year.
I think this is it- at the end of the year the team will have seen all three drivers in a Red Bull, and can therefore make a more informed decision as to who is best to promote to the pound seat.

rev-erend

20,067 posts

228 months

Tuesday 13th August
quotequote all
I am pretty sure DR left Red Bull as he was being made to play the no.2 driver slot behind Max.

Some of the DNF's looked not like a deliberate sabotage of his car but for sure getting 2nd best.


Graveworm

2,300 posts

15 months

Tuesday 13th August
quotequote all
rev-erend said:
I am pretty sure DR left Red Bull as he was being made to play the no.2 driver slot behind Max.

Some of the DNF's looked not like a deliberate sabotage of his car but for sure getting 2nd best.
Plus most of his "Bad" scoring only happened when he said he was going to Renault and they had to cut him out of the development discussions,

DanielSan

14,284 posts

111 months

Tuesday 13th August
quotequote all
768 said:
Gasly possibly would have been better off in the TR. wobble

Race 2018 Toro Rosso 2019 Red Bull
Australia 11 DNF
Bahrain 8 4
China 6 18
Azerbaijan DNF 12
Spain 6 DNF
Monaco 5 7
Canada 8 11
France 10 DNF
Austria 7 11
GB 4 13
Germany DNF 14
Hungary 6 6
Germany was technically a DNF wasn't it or did he get his front wing replaced? Can't remember

768

4,731 posts

40 months

Tuesday 13th August
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coughimayhavelabelledthecolumnswrongcough

TheDeuce

2,563 posts

10 months

Tuesday 13th August
quotequote all
Graveworm said:
rev-erend said:
I am pretty sure DR left Red Bull as he was being made to play the no.2 driver slot behind Max.

Some of the DNF's looked not like a deliberate sabotage of his car but for sure getting 2nd best.
Plus most of his "Bad" scoring only happened when he said he was going to Renault and they had to cut him out of the development discussions,
I think that with the stress of leaving, the subsequent severing of trust and the unfortunately ridiculous number of mechanical DNF's, there is little point judging any of the later part of his 2018 efforts. The culmination of effects/possible effects are more than enough to make any sort of judgement not worthwhile.

The only relevance he has for me in this debate is whether or not he could be tempted back. I get the impression Renault are not in a great place and are under increasing pressure as a part publicly funded team. They need to re-structure and re-capitalise which seems a stretch of the taxpayers patience... Not sure that whatever DR was promised is particularly likely to materialise anytime soon, in-spite of playing second fiddle to Max, an RB return could still prove his best career move. Or maybe Vettel will slope off and we'll see DR wearing red smile

Edited by TheDeuce on Tuesday 13th August 22:22

95 fiesta si

704 posts

96 months

Wednesday 14th August
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As expected.

Gasly doing a swap with Albon

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/49317809


Jasandjules

62,894 posts

173 months

Wednesday 14th August
quotequote all
95 fiesta si said:
As expected.

Gasly doing a swap with Albon

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/49317809
Feel sorry for both him and Kvyat..... But somehow I think Albon will step up.