Would a London Grand Prix kill off the Silverstone race?

Would a London Grand Prix kill off the Silverstone race?

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Vaud

50,192 posts

154 months

Tuesday 16th July 2019
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TobyTR said:
We should be grateful we have such an awesome circuit in our home country. It's up there with Monza, Spa and Suzuka
I think that is an insult to the other 3 that you list.

coppice

8,544 posts

143 months

Tuesday 16th July 2019
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RoverP6B said:
Doesn't matter what you do with funny corner radii, these flat-as-a-pancake former bomber airfields are dull as hell to watch racing on, and to describe any part of Silverstone as mesmerising is frankly bullst. A London street circuit would be no less a proper racetrack than Silverstone or Snetterton.

With regard to the latter, a far better Norfolk airfield to use as a racetrack would be Swanton Morley... far more going on there with curves and corners, albeit it's still a bit flat. Could be an East Anglian Goodwood.
Flat - yes , but It sure wasn't dull when I saw Revson win in 73 Watson in 81 and Mansell in 87,I wasn't going to drop off during Keke's 161 mph pole lap and the sight and sound of V10 cars spearing through Bridge was indeed mesmerising. Not bullst at all - but a view I hold. It's an opinion , and validly held . Feel free to have a different one but do not suggest I am guilty of deceit please .

I prefer Brands , but Silverstone, for all its faults , has still the capacity to enthrall.

Wing? It's a funny shaped big garage. It's not going to be confused with a French Chateau but I have yet to seen a pits complex that will be.

Welshbeef

49,633 posts

197 months

Tuesday 16th July 2019
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Vaud said:
TobyTR said:
We should be grateful we have such an awesome circuit in our home country. It's up there with Monza, Spa and Suzuka
I think that is an insult to the other 3 that you list.
I assume you mean the original loop Monza and without the chicanes

Vaud

50,192 posts

154 months

Tuesday 16th July 2019
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Welshbeef said:
I assume you mean the original loop Monza and without the chicanes
Not really, no.

Silverstone isn’t the worst circuit (and when I talk about circuit I mean the track and the surrounds) but it isn’t top flight. Marginal top 10 from the current.

Welshbeef

49,633 posts

197 months

Tuesday 16th July 2019
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Vaud said:
Welshbeef said:
I assume you mean the original loop Monza and without the chicanes
Not really, no.

Silverstone isn’t the worst circuit (and when I talk about circuit I mean the track and the surrounds) but it isn’t top flight. Marginal top 10 from the current.
The racing on Sunday was great LeClrec and Verstappen right fast right on the edge superb.

Vaud

50,192 posts

154 months

Tuesday 16th July 2019
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Welshbeef said:
The racing on Sunday was great LeClrec and Verstappen right fast right on the edge superb.
I didn't say it wasn't. I just don't think it is a top circuit for either racing, ambience or surrounds. And yes I have been - both as a regular ticket and as a team guest/paddock pass.

chunder27

2,309 posts

207 months

Tuesday 16th July 2019
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In Silverstone's favour, at least it has some closeness to a proper circuit, rather than the mundane Tilke dromes.

I doubt the German fans look forward to Hockenheim, when you consider what they had in the past.

But imagine being Hungarian and only knowing that race?

And I never understand why Brno never got an F1 race? Seems a perfect place to have one in that art of the world, they probably have never been able to afford the hosting fees, Hungary was nearly always rammed with Marlboro ads.

Evangelion

7,628 posts

177 months

Tuesday 16th July 2019
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Stirling Moss always said that what made him as a driver was racing on the Continent, and that he'd never have honed his craft on flat boring British former airfields.

RoverP6B

4,338 posts

127 months

Tuesday 16th July 2019
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Tilke designed the Istanbul circuit and that's a far better place to watch racing than Silverstone. The Malaysian GP circuit ain't bad either, and Austin is decent (although I'd just have taken the US GP back to Watkins Glen or maybe somewhere like VIR?).

Dr Murdoch

3,423 posts

134 months

Tuesday 16th July 2019
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Yet the worst bit about Silverstone is the infield (since Tilke butchered it).

Bring back Abbey and Bridge thumbup

Europa1

10,923 posts

187 months

Tuesday 16th July 2019
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RoverP6B said:
Tilke designed the Istanbul circuit and that's a far better place to watch racing than Silverstone. The Malaysian GP circuit ain't bad either, and Austin is decent (although I'd just have taken the US GP back to Watkins Glen or maybe somewhere like VIR?).
Herein lies the tension: you mention watching, the F1 Drivers all go a bit gooey about driving at Silverstone.

RoverP6B

4,338 posts

127 months

Tuesday 16th July 2019
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Yeah, and other than Alonso, the drivers all seem to like the modern V6 turbo hybrid cars, doesn't change the fact they've ruined the spectacle of F1 compared to the days of far simpler aero and screaming V10s and V12s.

TheDeuce

21,128 posts

65 months

Tuesday 16th July 2019
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RoverP6B said:
Yeah, and other than Alonso, the drivers all seem to like the modern V6 turbo hybrid cars, doesn't change the fact they've ruined the spectacle of F1 compared to the days of far simpler aero and screaming V10s and V12s.
Drivers do tend to like the cars that go round the track as quickly as possible. Funny that!

Vaud

50,192 posts

154 months

Tuesday 16th July 2019
quotequote all
RoverP6B said:
Yeah, and other than Alonso, the drivers all seem to like the modern V6 turbo hybrid cars, doesn't change the fact they've ruined the spectacle of F1 compared to the days of far simpler aero and screaming V10s and V12s.
Ahh the V10 and V12 era of unreliability and cars being lapped 3 times in a race. The sound was good, but a lot was decided by car reliability, not drivers.

The later V10s and then the V8s were better (esp late era V8).

Either way we can't put the genie back in the bottle - and it's mostly an aero battle?

RoverP6B

4,338 posts

127 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
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TheDeuce said:
Drivers do tend to like the cars that go round the track as quickly as possible. Funny that!
Yet the laptimes are no better than the late V10s, and overtaking is considerably more difficult thanks to all the dirty air off the back...

TheDeuce

21,128 posts

65 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
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RoverP6B said:
TheDeuce said:
Drivers do tend to like the cars that go round the track as quickly as possible. Funny that!
Yet the laptimes are no better than the late V10s, and overtaking is considerably more difficult thanks to all the dirty air off the back...
To be honest I thought the lap records had pretty much all been beaten since the V10 era at this stage - depends if you look at 'fastest lap' or 'fastest racing lap' I guess.

I have just checked, and there are a handful of 2004 'racing' lap records still to be beaten but the vast majority have been beaten and then bettered for the last several years. Overall, the hybrids are faster - albeit more due to aero than outright power.

I think it's fair to say that if you run 20/21 races with V10 and then hybrid, and the hybrids win the majority, that the hybrid cars are quicker. Finding exceptions doesn't change the overall result.

RoverP6B

4,338 posts

127 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
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Rebuild a really good V10 chassis with the modern aero devices and it will go at least as fast as the modern cars if not faster, but at the expense of ruining the racing with the resultant wake turbulence. Alternatively, take a modern V6 turbo hybrid and simplify the aero massively to reduce the wake turbulence and the lap times will take a hit...

TheDeuce

21,128 posts

65 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
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RoverP6B said:
Rebuild a really good V10 chassis with the modern aero devices and it will go at least as fast as the modern cars if not faster, but at the expense of ruining the racing with the resultant wake turbulence. Alternatively, take a modern V6 turbo hybrid and simplify the aero massively to reduce the wake turbulence and the lap times will take a hit...
Or look forwards instead of backwards. 2021 regs seek to all but eliminate the dirty air problem, and it's fairly easy to regulate to ensure that will happen. Popular wisdom would suggest that such regulation will slow the cars down a little - I bet it won't though. We already have new regs this year that have helped cars to follow, and the cars also became faster.

I expect the reason that the PU specs will remain largely unchanged in 2021 is to allow a further power evolution to offset whatever the aero loses in efficiency. In the end, it won't be V10 - but it's pretty clear they want today's speed with yesterdays ability to follow and pass with confidence. The right people are in charge of making that happen and I think it will.

If you really look forwards there is no other place for F1 to go than full electric, at which point the cars could have insane levels of power, easily enough to pin them to the track with high drag aero and no dirty air issues at all. Yet to be seen how that works as a spectacle, but F1 is already on that trajectory. I prefer to look forwards and debate/discuss the future - as the past really won't be repeated. I do sometimes wonder if the world moves on a little too fast these days, but in the end it's true that most things get better - nostalgia might distort that view sometimes.


TobyTR

1,068 posts

145 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
RoverP6B said:
TheDeuce said:
Drivers do tend to like the cars that go round the track as quickly as possible. Funny that!
Yet the laptimes are no better than the late V10s, and overtaking is considerably more difficult thanks to all the dirty air off the back...
To be honest I thought the lap records had pretty much all been beaten since the V10 era at this stage - depends if you look at 'fastest lap' or 'fastest racing lap' I guess.

I have just checked, and there are a handful of 2004 'racing' lap records still to be beaten but the vast majority have been beaten and then bettered for the last several years. Overall, the hybrids are faster - albeit more due to aero than outright power.

I think it's fair to say that if you run 20/21 races with V10 and then hybrid, and the hybrids win the majority, that the hybrid cars are quicker. Finding exceptions doesn't change the overall result.
During Qualifying, back in the 2004-2005 they had one-lap qualifying only with their race-fuel levels on board, where as today they're allowed multiple laps over three sessions running minimal fuel levels. Race is the better indicator

Unchanged tracks from 2004 to present, the 2004-2005 V10s are still the fastest in history - still hold majority of official lap records from unchanged tracks (8:3) and the total race times are significantly quicker, even with the V10s pitting 3-4 times per race. The regs, engines and tyres allowed them to race flat-out essentially three-four sprint sessions.

950bhp/605kg kerb weight vs 800bhp+160bhp temporary-KERS/740kg kerb weight... but then you can't have the hybrid tech complexity without the added weight...

even when the 2018-2019 cars pit for fresh super-soft slicks towards the end of the race with just handful laps fuel remaining, their fastest laps are still a bit slower than the 2004 V10s on majority of circuits.

2004-2005 cars still hold:
Melbourne, Bahrain, Nurburg, Hockenheimring, Hungaroring, Monza, Shanghai, Suzuka

track layouts changed since 2005: Catalunya, Monaco, Silverstone, Spa



Edited by TobyTR on Wednesday 17th July 03:56

RoverP6B

4,338 posts

127 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
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The day F1 goes BEV is the day it dies. End of.

F1 should stop pretending to be the be-all and end-all of future road car technology and embrace an openly and unapologetically Luddite attitude to electrification. Historic racing is now a big thing, ITV broadcasts the Goodwood Revival, and as Formula E increasingly becomes more relevant to the road cars of the future, F1 can only survive at all by appealing to the enthusiasts who couldn't give a toss about the sport's carbon footprint and just want to see loud, screaming petrol (or maybe bioethanol?) powered racing cars being driven flat out all the time - none of this nonsense over managing tyre degradation or fuel consumption that has made F1 such a dull spectacle in recent years. Make them 48v mild hybrids if you must, but for goodness sake let's return to proper racing cars that are the ultimate challenge to drive - as Alonso says, today's cars are simply not as difficult to control as those of 15 years ago were.