Fernando Alonso

[angrymoby]

sgtBerbatov said:

I forgot Alonso was in charge of McLaren's design department.

i forgot the design department threatened to pull the trigger

[angrymoby]

ash73 said:

I agree 100%, he should have just got his head down when the rookie started all the silly shenanigans in Hungary quali.

Hungary was the end of the shenanigans, not the start

[TheLimla]

ash73 said:

TheLimla said:

Alonso should have just rolled his sleeves up and got on with the task at hand which was to beat a rookie rather than silly shenanigans!

I agree 100%, he should have just got his head down when the rookie started all the silly shenanigans in Hungary quali.

Yes Alonso should have risen above it and not thrown his toys out of the pram so blatantly in front of the world seeing as he wanted to be the No1 driver and team lead.

[deadslow]

TheLimla said:

ash73 said:

TheLimla said:

Alonso should have just rolled his sleeves up and got on with the task at hand which was to beat a rookie rather than silly shenanigans!

I agree 100%, he should have just got his head down when the rookie started all the silly shenanigans in Hungary quali.

Yes Alonso should have risen above it and not thrown his toys out of the pram so blatantly in front of the world seeing as he wanted to be the No1 driver and team lead.

This moment was the culmination of a lot of niggle, mainly coming from Lewis (read the mechanic's book). You could forgive LH for being a PITA - it was, after all, his first season. It is harder to understand Big Ron, whose objective was to win both titles, which they would have done at a canter. Fair enough, Alonso blew his top, but his team-mate had just ratted him out to the stewards, so he was never going to take that quietly.

I don't understand why RD didn't manage this better, after all, Renault had committed exactly the same crime, and suffered no sanction.

It ended up a mess, when it could have been a dream year for Macca.

[thegreenhell]

ash73 said:

Alonso appologised

These words do not belong together in any sentence.

[TheDeuce]

The Alonso debate has raged since he left. I'd quite like to see a PH poll on whether people look forward to his return or not...

Wouldn't surprise me if the quiet majority wanted to see him return tbh. Quite possibly some of whom only wish to see what drama he can cause...

[angrymoby]

again, Hungary was not the beginning ...it was the end of a long series of events, stemming mainly from one driver wanting/ expecting/ demanding number one status

If you want number one status, do your homework & don't join a team like Mclaren.

Knowing the above, if you do join Mclaren & want number one status, make sure it's in writing.

If you dont get number one status, dont start whinging about it from pretty much race one & onwards.

If you start playing stupid games, don't be surprised if you win stupid prizes especially if you do it outside of the team's jurisdiction & you then you'll get called out for it.

& never, ever call Ron Dennis's bluff.

...oh & then, don't go onto to ps off future teams/ engine suppliers as it will reinforce the opinion that the problem is you- polarised opinions or not

& lets not also forget only one side of the Mclaren garage that was receiving the trickle down from Ferrari>Stepney>Coughlan>de la Rosa ...& it wasn't Hamilton's

[deadslow]

angrymoby said:

again, Hungary was not the beginning ...it was the end of a long series of events, stemming mainly from one driver wanting/ expecting/ demanding number one status

If you want number one status, do your homework & don't join a team like Mclaren.

Knowing the above, if you do join Mclaren & want number one status, make sure it's in writing.

If you dont get number one status, dont start whinging about it from pretty much race one & onwards.

If you start playing stupid games, don't be surprised if you win stupid prizes especially if you do it outside of the team's jurisdiction & you then you'll get called out for it.

& never, ever call Ron Dennis's bluff.

...oh & then, don't go onto to ps off future teams/ engine suppliers as it will reinforce the opinion that the problem is you- polarised opinions or not

& lets not also forget only one side of the Mclaren garage that was receiving the trickle down from Ferrari>Stepney>Coughlan>de la Rosa ...& it wasn't Hamilton's

congratulations! No post on this thread has less insight.

[kambites]

TheDeuce said:

Wouldn't surprise me if the quiet majority wanted to see him return tbh. Quite possibly some of whom only wish to see what drama he can cause...

I want to see him back, not because I think he "deserves" to be in F1 after the wake of destruction he's left behind him, but because it will inject some welcome interest into the sport. I'm intrigued to see exactly how quickly his relationship with Renault self-destructs, but also what he can do with that car given that he has a history of dragging uncompetitive cars to finishes they have absolutely no right to attain.

I suspect he'll be willing to write off 2021, but if Renault aren't competitive in 2022 I suspect it wont be long before they have a(nother) very public falling out.

[TheDeuce]

kambites said:

TheDeuce said:

Wouldn't surprise me if the quiet majority wanted to see him return tbh. Quite possibly some of whom only wish to see what drama he can cause...

I want to see him back, not because I think he "deserves" to be in F1 after the wake of destruction he's left behind him, but because it will inject some welcome interest into the sport. I'm intrigued to see exactly how quickly his relationship with Renault self-destructs, but also what he can do with that car given that he has a history of dragging uncompetitive cars to finishes they have absolutely no right to attain.

I suspect he'll be willing to write off 2021, but if Renault aren't competitive in 2022 I suspect it wont be long before they have a(nother) very public falling out.

Yea I'm not sure if there were a poll I would vote to say he 'should' come back... But he is coming back so at least we can look forward to some drama, maybe even a particularly good episode of the Netflix series at some point

[stemll]

glazbagun said:

Teddy Lop said:

funny I said the same thing to the mrs last night.

He supposed to be this badass racer who can't quit chasing greatness and recognition, but if he wants to win Indy so bad then is it such an ask eat some humble pie for the stupid stuff he said and apologise a bit?

I must have missed this, has he been mouthing off about Honda again?

I remember his GP2 comments and general moaning in F1, and his first Honda engine failing on his first indy, but not him putting the boot in.

If the Honda performance drops off they ain't seen nothing yet. Wait until Horner gets stuck in.

[Fundoreen]

Its like politics. Someone always telling someone to apologise.
Are Honda going to forever be the best engine in indy?
Actually honda and mclaren let him down. honda would only sign the 10 year deal with mclaren if they had 2 top drivers onboard.
Ronda just sweet talked Alonso with all the lies to get him onboard and waste 5 years of his life.
Maybe they should apologise to him?

[DOCG]

spunkytherabbit said:

Because he was seen to have stabbed in the back a British racing institution and helped set of a chain off events that was a significant factor in the start of a decline for Mclaren. From which they are only just recovering.

To blame him so singularly for his role in spygate and the long term consequences for Mclaren is being over simplistic, but that's what we do as the public at times. Couple that to the fact that he never made any meaningful apology or real contribution to the team once he returned, the majority of British racing fans aren't going to like him so much.

We can sit here and say how much we value 'pure racers', but the reality is, we all have our own rules and exceptions we apply and have reasons why we can dislike someone like Alonso widely acknowledged as a such a driver. I do certainly.

Blaming Alonso for Spygate is ridiculous, all he did is cause it to be unearthed, unless people think the actions of McLaren were ethical and the only wrongdoing was Alonso bringing it to light. In my opinion the only people to blame are Ron Dennis and the McLaren organization. Blaming Alonso is like blaming a whistle-blower.

Alonso's actions in qualifying at Hungary were at least somewhat justified, Hamilton had ignored team orders to let Alonso past at the beginning of the fuel burn phase, which had put the cars out of sequence for their stops giving Hamilton an advantage, the internal team agreement was to rotate this advantage every race.

I do think though that Hamilton was not allowed to win the title in 2007, keeping him out until his tyres were bald in China and then the mysterious gearbox issue in Brazil. Maybe an unofficial punishment but that is just my conspiracy theory.

[KevinCamaroSS]

DOCG said:

I do think though that Hamilton was not allowed to win the title in 2007, keeping him out until his tyres were bald in China and then the mysterious gearbox issue in Brazil. Maybe an unofficial punishment but that is just my conspiracy theory.

I would agree with this. It is my belief that the powers that be deemed it would be bad for F1 if a rookie won the championship, especially if his team-mate was the reigning champion. This would make F1 'look too easy' and therefore not the pinnacle of motor-sport.

[spunkytherabbit]

DOCG said:

spunkytherabbit said:

Because he was seen to have stabbed in the back a British racing institution and helped set of a chain off events that was a significant factor in the start of a decline for Mclaren. From which they are only just recovering.

To blame him so singularly for his role in spygate and the long term consequences for Mclaren is being over simplistic, but that's what we do as the public at times. Couple that to the fact that he never made any meaningful apology or real contribution to the team once he returned, the majority of British racing fans aren't going to like him so much.

We can sit here and say how much we value 'pure racers', but the reality is, we all have our own rules and exceptions we apply and have reasons why we can dislike someone like Alonso widely acknowledged as a such a driver. I do certainly.

Blaming Alonso for Spygate is ridiculous, all he did is cause it to be unearthed, unless people think the actions of McLaren were ethical and the only wrongdoing was Alonso bringing it to light. In my opinion the only people to blame are Ron Dennis and the McLaren organization. Blaming Alonso is like blaming a whistle-blower.

Alonso's actions in qualifying at Hungary were at least somewhat justified, Hamilton had ignored team orders to let Alonso past at the beginning of the fuel burn phase, which had put the cars out of sequence for their stops giving Hamilton an advantage, the internal team agreement was to rotate this advantage every race.

I do think though that Hamilton was not allowed to win the title in 2007, keeping him out until his tyres were bald in China and then the mysterious gearbox issue in Brazil. Maybe an unofficial punishment but that is just my conspiracy theory.

I agree that singularly blaming Alonso for spygate is simplistic and incorrect. I hoped I made that clear in what I wrote at least. I guess my point was that in time memories about who else was involved (and how) have faded. That void likely filled by apportioning blame all onto Alonso and further fuelling the dislike. Like I said, Mclaren were a British racing institution at the time and people have long, if selective, memories with this sort of thing.

I do however disagree with your opinion that blaming Alonso (however big or small) is like blaming a whistle blower. Alonso had been part of the clandestine group using the Ferrari data and manifest, participated in secretly testing Ferrari parameters. Evidence was produced in punishing Mclaren that showed the extent to which the main players did this and Alonso was clearly one of them. Had he had an 'oh this is very wrong' moment and turned whistle blower for the right sort of reasons, then maybe people would be more forgiving, but he didn't do this. He sought to blackmail Ron Dennis to get his own way. Ron was his own whistle blower going to Max Moseley as soon as Alonso divulged what was going on during the blackmail attempt.

I agree, culpability went deep into Mclaren and the organisational naivety was laid open at the FIA hearing (including Ron specifically). But for anyone to neglect the context of both Alonso's participation in the spygate activities AND his attempted blackmailing of Ron/ Mclaren is very remiss. The blackmail attempt by him (an admitted one remember), showed the strength of his character. Certainly at the time, as did it show the strength of character of all the others involved. Whatever your view is of what 'strength' means in that context.

And selective British memory or not, it is for these sort of reasons people dislike him as much as like him, regardless of their nationality.

[deadslow]

But the oft-quoted 'blackmail' attempt was actually just an argument. Alonso went to Ron and asked him to stop Hamilton acting like a prize prick. The argument got out of hand and Alonso threw the spygate stuff into the conversation. Ron D later stated he would expect no less from such a committed winner. Within 10 mins Alonso had apologised and the matter could have been forgotten or at least dealt with internally.

In an act of catstrophic mismanagement, Ron decided to throw the team onto the bonfire of his own sanctimonious vanity. The team ended up derailed, Alonso's career was completely derailed, and Ron was eventually chased out of the sport.

All in a season when, with a little bit of common sense, both titles were there for the taking.

[spunkytherabbit]

deadslow said:

But the oft-quoted 'blackmail' attempt was actually just an argument. Alonso went to Ron and asked him to stop Hamilton acting like a prize prick. The argument got out of hand and Alonso threw the spygate stuff into the conversation. Ron D later stated he would expect no less from such a committed winner. Within 10 mins Alonso had apologised and the matter could have been forgotten or at least dealt with internally.

In an act of catstrophic mismanagement, Ron decided to throw the team onto the bonfire of his own sanctimonious vanity. The team ended up derailed, Alonso's career was completely derailed, and Ron was eventually chased out of the sport.

All in a season when, with a little bit of common sense, both titles were there for the taking.

Oh I COMPLETELY agree. I'm merely answering the question asked why British racing fans probably have more dislike for him than just those who don't like him because it looks like he's a prize prick more often than not.

What I don't like with some of the comments made is the leaving out of important context. Certainly relating to people (Alonso's) motivations. And I like the context you added that with better management they could have handled it differently, it be a win-win season and two careers wouldn't have been ruined.

Take away spygate though and would Alonso's tenure at Ferrari or Mclaren Mk2 been any different? Probably not. Take away spygate and would Ron have managed to steer Mclaren through a changing world better than he so badly did? Probably not. I just think spygate was a catalyst for the inevitable for both of them.

[TheDeuce]

spunkytherabbit said:

Oh I COMPLETELY agree. I'm merely answering the question asked why British racing fans probably have more dislike for him than just those who don't like him because it looks like he's a prize prick more often than not.

What I don't like with some of the comments made is the leaving out of important context. Certainly relating to people (Alonso's) motivations. And I like the context you added that with better management they could have handled it differently, it be a win-win season and two careers wouldn't have been ruined.

Take away spygate though and would Alonso's tenure at Ferrari or Mclaren Mk2 been any different? Probably not. Take away spygate and would Ron have managed to steer Mclaren through a changing world better than he so badly did? Probably not. I just think spygate was a catalyst for the inevitable for both of them.

I agree that McLaren would have struggled without spygate or Alonso..

But at the time we (British F1 fans) were pretty happy to see Alonso getting stuck in with the team to find improvements for the future, in the end however he acted in various ways that were not conducive to the McLaren/Honda relationship and that clearly didn't help the cause.

He definitely played a small yet significant and public part in that period and people won't forget that aspect of him anymore than he will ever apologise for certain episodes.

Naturally as Brits with a team such as McLaren at stake we have a particular interest. But surely anyone that was watching during his time at the team must have noticed he's a bit of dick sometimes

[kiseca]

DOCG said:

spunkytherabbit said:

Because he was seen to have stabbed in the back a British racing institution and helped set of a chain off events that was a significant factor in the start of a decline for Mclaren. From which they are only just recovering.

To blame him so singularly for his role in spygate and the long term consequences for Mclaren is being over simplistic, but that's what we do as the public at times. Couple that to the fact that he never made any meaningful apology or real contribution to the team once he returned, the majority of British racing fans aren't going to like him so much.

We can sit here and say how much we value 'pure racers', but the reality is, we all have our own rules and exceptions we apply and have reasons why we can dislike someone like Alonso widely acknowledged as a such a driver. I do certainly.

Blaming Alonso for Spygate is ridiculous, all he did is cause it to be unearthed, unless people think the actions of McLaren were ethical and the only wrongdoing was Alonso bringing it to light. In my opinion the only people to blame are Ron Dennis and the McLaren organization. Blaming Alonso is like blaming a whistle-blower.

Alonso's actions in qualifying at Hungary were at least somewhat justified, Hamilton had ignored team orders to let Alonso past at the beginning of the fuel burn phase, which had put the cars out of sequence for their stops giving Hamilton an advantage, the internal team agreement was to rotate this advantage every race.

I do think though that Hamilton was not allowed to win the title in 2007, keeping him out until his tyres were bald in China and then the mysterious gearbox issue in Brazil. Maybe an unofficial punishment but that is just my conspiracy theory.

Noone is judging the actions of McLaren's other staff in spygate either as ethical or unethical. Alonso's actions are being judged and IMO are easy to do so.What Alonso did was not blow the whistle, but first, try take advantage of the unethically gained information - making him no better than anyone else in the team involved however you may judge them - and then, when caught in a situation he didn't like, tried to use blackmail to engineer an advantage. At no time did he act in the spirit "this is wrong, I want no part of it." All of his actions were "I don't care about the ethics, I'm doing what's best for me."

[TheLimla]

ash73 said:

Amazing that people still believe only one side of the garage was involved and Ron had no knowledge of it.

Innocent until proven guilty my friend!