Red Bull Vs Ferarri

Red Bull Vs Ferarri

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TheDeuce

Original Poster:

5,468 posts

21 months

Saturday 27th July 2019
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LaurasOtherHalf said:
I think you underestimate VET if you think GAS can outperform him over a season at present.
Not sure if that was directed at me - I personally don't think Gasly is on the same level.

I do think that if Gasly can maintain around 80% of Max's performance, then Max could in theory do enough for the team to seriously challenge Ferrari - the points back that up.

Although to be honest, that's more due to Ferrari as a team struggling rather than either driver. Seb has clearly made a few mistakes this year, but nowhere near as many as his team.

LaurasOtherHalf

17,285 posts

151 months

Saturday 27th July 2019
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Just a comment in the spirit of the conversation. VET get's bad press on PH, sometimes well deserved but it doesn't change the fact that for me he's one of the best three drivers on the grid at present.

He's not in a position to show off his personal skills in this year's Ferrari but I'd still put him above GAS in the RB-Honda.

I also get the feeling that RD-Honda are throwing everything they have at the VER show but that's another story...

TheDeuce

Original Poster:

5,468 posts

21 months

Saturday 27th July 2019
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LaurasOtherHalf said:
Just a comment in the spirit of the conversation. VET get's bad press on PH, sometimes well deserved but it doesn't change the fact that for me he's one of the best three drivers on the grid at present.

He's not in a position to show off his personal skills in this year's Ferrari but I'd still put him above GAS in the RB-Honda.

I also get the feeling that RD-Honda are throwing everything they have at the VER show but that's another story...
Tricky one seb.. I think he has way more talent than he gets credit for. He also has a pretty major achilles heel in the form of faltering under pressure. In many ways Ferrari is about the worst team for him in that regard. It hardly matters now though, I get the feeling he's over the pressures of F1 in general now and has other life goals in mind.

As for RB propping up Max - I think they do want 'the Max show', they're all about putting on a show. But in spite of any advantage he might be given, he's driving superbly this season in my opinion. He's as close to 'too aggressive' at this stage as it's possible to be without truly being too aggressive. Maybe the sport needs a little bit of that. Splitting the Mercedes today was impressive for sure.


95 fiesta si

854 posts

107 months

Sunday 28th July 2019
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LaurasOtherHalf said:
I think you underestimate VET if you think GAS can outperform him over a season at present.
its not just a question of his performance, look at today for example....out of his hands

ajprice

17,616 posts

151 months

Thursday 15th August 2019
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Ferrari admit their problem this year is lack of downforce, they designed it that way and they shouldn't have. https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/145396/ferrari-a...

Deesee

3,887 posts

38 months

Thursday 15th August 2019
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ajprice said:
Ferrari admit their problem this year is lack of downforce, they designed it that way and they shouldn't have. https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/145396/ferrari-a...
The BBC's the 'secret aerodynamicist' told them that before Melbourne...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/47527705

Supersam83

377 posts

100 months

Thursday 15th August 2019
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ajprice said:
Ferrari admit their problem this year is lack of downforce, they designed it that way and they shouldn't have. https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/145396/ferrari-a...
Yes and hopefully this will be rectified as they have said that they are going to change the design direction for next years car to be more like the Mercedes and Red Bull concepts of high downforce.

Just imagine an evolution of this years Ferrari engine and the right chassis concept for next year! Ferrari will finally be back.

Shame they will catch up with Mercedes just as the rules will change and reset everything back to zero.

TheDeuce

Original Poster:

5,468 posts

21 months

Thursday 15th August 2019
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Supersam83 said:
ajprice said:
Ferrari admit their problem this year is lack of downforce, they designed it that way and they shouldn't have. https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/145396/ferrari-a...
Yes and hopefully this will be rectified as they have said that they are going to change the design direction for next years car to be more like the Mercedes and Red Bull concepts of high downforce.

Just imagine an evolution of this years Ferrari engine and the right chassis concept for next year! Ferrari will finally be back.

Shame they will catch up with Mercedes just as the rules will change and reset everything back to zero.
The problem is, that their current advantage is in top speed, they're tough to beat on fast tracks. But they supposedly have no horsepower advantage to Mercedes, quite possibly a small deficit - they're just crazy fast because of low down-force. And who knows what power the Honda PU achieves? Whatever it is I expect a revised unit for the second half of the season and from what we have seen on track, they can already just about hold their own against the Merc's, certainly close enough to be a nuisance.

So Ferrari will add more down force and lose their straight speed advantage? Swapping one advantage for another, but they don't have a seasons data and experience of running high down-force so I can't see how they can expect to make a better job of that philosophy then Merc or Red Bull. They won't know how their car handles the tyres with high down-force until testing next year.

I think it's the right move for them to make. I also think it's very unlikely they will better whatever Merc and Red Bull come back with next year. Mercedes have already totally nailed high down-force and Red Bull have been used to it for years. Tough nut to crack, but obviously having the 'fastest car' wasn't working so I understand the need for change.

HustleRussell

17,883 posts

115 months

Friday 16th August 2019
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Spa and Monza next so I doubt Ferrari will be in a massive hurry to immediately trade off their top speed advantage against downforce. I'm sure they'll be working on a higher downforce configuration in parallel though.

They really need to win in Monza and, ideally, Spa for their own sake. It looks like they have the car to do it, so I'm looking forward to seeing how they can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory this time.

janesmith1950

6,801 posts

50 months

Friday 16th August 2019
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They were expected to walk Monza last year...and didn't manage it.

If the other two's low downforce configs are very efficient, it be be they're better than Ferrari in a straight line, too. And potentially with better traction out of the chicanes.

TheDeuce

Original Poster:

5,468 posts

21 months

Friday 16th August 2019
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janesmith1950 said:
They were expected to walk Monza last year...and didn't manage it.

If the other two's low downforce configs are very efficient, it be be they're better than Ferrari in a straight line, too. And potentially with better traction out of the chicanes.
This is the thing.. in theory these are Ferrari tracks, and that is the common view we're expected to subscribe too. But I think this season has shown two new things so far:

1) in low downforce prep the Mercedes is at least almost as fast, and handles it's tyres better. So whilst a potential Ferrari win remains possible, it will likely not ever be easy.

2) even if Ferrari do have an outright advantage in mechanical terms, so far this season they have ruined their own chances in some way at least 50% of the time.

I would love to see a straight race at Monza, with no strategy or other silly cock ups from Ferrari. Just a straight race and to how fast the Ferrari really is through the course of a full race. Tbh, I think the answer would be that on paper the Ferrari should win, but in reality the Merc deficit is pretty slim and propably compensated for by their better control of tyre wear.

Red bull are also proving capable of surviving races whilst running engine modes and power I don't think they thought they could sustain pre season. They're also close each time - I think the days of 'fastest car on paper wins fast circuit' are over. There is no easy/predictable win for Ferrari right now, even on their ideal tracks they will need to be flawless and fight for it.

Good season so far smile

LaurasOtherHalf

17,285 posts

151 months

Saturday 17th August 2019
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High/low downforce is a red herring from lazy reporters.

The real conundrum is tire deg over high/low track temperature. It’s only here that Ferrari have a chance.

sparta6

1,784 posts

55 months

Sunday 18th August 2019
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LaurasOtherHalf said:
High/low downforce is a red herring from lazy reporters.

The real conundrum is tire deg over high/low track temperature. It’s only here that Ferrari have a chance.
Spa and Monza could be very tight between Merc and Ferrari and Max

TheDeuce

Original Poster:

5,468 posts

21 months

Sunday 18th August 2019
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sparta6 said:
Spa and Monza could be very tight between Merc and Ferrari and Max
Nah Monza is Ferrari's home race, they'll find a way to screw it up.

TheDeuce

Original Poster:

5,468 posts

21 months

Thursday 18th June
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I thought it might be time to resurrect this thread - the first GP is now just around the corner and Ferrari v Red Bull is perhaps one of the most interesting aspects of this season.

Supposedly Ferrari's previous PU advantage before the FIA semi-scandal shut it down was 30bhp quali, 20bhp race. That's almost certainly gone now, and in response Ferrari have changed direction to focus on aero performance over straight line speed.

It's likely that Ferrari will struggle to get on top of that new philosophy straight away, pre-season testing ended with them being far from happy and they now have a short season to make the new car work. If ever there was an opportunity bought to Red Bulls doorstep, this season could be it. Ferrari are also now 'stuck' with a Vettel that doesn't exactly need to play ball, and can likely only be controlled setting his car/race at a disadvantage - not good for WCC points.

So, my bold prediction: Red Bull second in WCC this season. The bookies seem to agree too smile


ajprice

17,616 posts

151 months

Thursday 18th June
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I'm with you, apart from the cars, I think Verstappen and Albion will be the better mix than Leclerc and Vettel. I don't think Vettel's state of mind and attitude will be to play the team game.

sparta6

1,784 posts

55 months

Thursday 18th June
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TheDeuce said:
sparta6 said:
Spa and Monza could be very tight between Merc and Ferrari and Max
Nah Monza is Ferrari's home race, they'll find a way to screw it up.
biggrin

Ferrari & Red Bull need some more rain, ala Hockenheim.
Was a decent innings by Vettel and Max.


Angpozzuto

336 posts

64 months

Thursday 18th June
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Red bull also are in a better position of having albon in the second car instead of gasly, I hate to admit it but Ferrari are probably going to be the third best team this year

RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat

6,801 posts

50 months

Thursday 18th June
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I reckon following the first two rounds Mercedes could be in third place in the championship and on the back foot.

dunc_sx

1,153 posts

152 months

Thursday 18th June
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RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
I reckon following the first two rounds Mercedes could be in third place in the championship and on the back foot.
Care to elaborate?

I can't think of any reason for Merc to struggle this year, quite the opposite.

Dunc