Discussion
I'd add Fangio to the list.
I also wouldn't add Lauda. He wasn't only known as The Rat because of his overbite. He was as cunning as the best of them.
Two examples I can recall were taking a team mate's qualifying tyres and basically ruining them, so the team mate had no chance to outqualify him, and in a clever piece of negotiation had Bernie over a barrel in a critical meeting to get paid double the salary that Bernie thought had been agreed.... and then walked out about two thirds of the way through the season anyway.
Niki's definitely not one of F1's "good guys" for me. He's more in the lovable rogue category.
I also wouldn't add Lauda. He wasn't only known as The Rat because of his overbite. He was as cunning as the best of them.
Two examples I can recall were taking a team mate's qualifying tyres and basically ruining them, so the team mate had no chance to outqualify him, and in a clever piece of negotiation had Bernie over a barrel in a critical meeting to get paid double the salary that Bernie thought had been agreed.... and then walked out about two thirds of the way through the season anyway.
Niki's definitely not one of F1's "good guys" for me. He's more in the lovable rogue category.
Not my eras at all but everybody seems to have loved Mike Hawthorn and Elio de Angelis.
I suspect it's easier to maintain a record for being well liked when you didn't hang around long enough to become jaded and old fashioned. My view of Moss is unfortunately coloured by the outdated remarks he consistently made about women, for example.
With Stewart I always got the impression that he can turn the charm on and off like a tap depending on whether he stood to gain anything from being charming.
I suspect it's easier to maintain a record for being well liked when you didn't hang around long enough to become jaded and old fashioned. My view of Moss is unfortunately coloured by the outdated remarks he consistently made about women, for example.
With Stewart I always got the impression that he can turn the charm on and off like a tap depending on whether he stood to gain anything from being charming.
HustleRussell said:
My view of Moss is unfortunately coloured by the outdated remarks he consistently made about women, for example.
Can you give an example of such comments? Were they really that outdated given that he was born in the 1920's - a time when the most popular and respectable media would state as fact some extremely patronising assessments of what women could/should be able to do. All innocently enough at the time I'm sure.
TheDeuce said:
HustleRussell said:
My view of Moss is unfortunately coloured by the outdated remarks he consistently made about women, for example.
Can you give an example of such comments? Were they really that outdated given that he was born in the 1920's - a time when the most popular and respectable media would state as fact some extremely patronising assessments of what women could/should be able to do. All innocently enough at the time I'm sure.Stirling Moss 2013 said:
I think they have the strength, but I don't know if they've got the mental aptitude to race hard, wheel-to-wheel.
The mental stress I think would be pretty difficult for a lady to deal with in a practical fashion. I just don't think they have aptitude to win a Formula 1 race.
The mental stress I think would be pretty difficult for a lady to deal with in a practical fashion. I just don't think they have aptitude to win a Formula 1 race.
HustleRussell said:
TheDeuce said:
HustleRussell said:
My view of Moss is unfortunately coloured by the outdated remarks he consistently made about women, for example.
Can you give an example of such comments? Were they really that outdated given that he was born in the 1920's - a time when the most popular and respectable media would state as fact some extremely patronising assessments of what women could/should be able to do. All innocently enough at the time I'm sure.Stirling Moss 2013 said:
I think they have the strength, but I don't know if they've got the mental aptitude to race hard, wheel-to-wheel.
The mental stress I think would be pretty difficult for a lady to deal with in a practical fashion. I just don't think they have aptitude to win a Formula 1 race.
The mental stress I think would be pretty difficult for a lady to deal with in a practical fashion. I just don't think they have aptitude to win a Formula 1 race.
I personally don't think he should be judged on it. He spent his formative years (up to 30 for many chaps..) in a world where such thoughts were almost accepted as common sense wisdom.
I obviously don't agree with such views personally.
TwentyFive said:
John Surtees
Surtees could be difficult man to get on with. He liked to have his way of doing things and it would rub people the wrong way.HustleRussell said:
Mike Hawthorn
A man's man who loved a good time and from what I gather he was similar to Nelson Piquet in that he had Marmite character which you either got on with or didn't - possibly a reason for getting the blame for the 1955 Le Mans tragedy.The death of team mate Luigi Musso at a French GP is on the shady side. Hawthorn and best mate Peter Collins had a pact: whoever won would share the winnings together but not with Musso who had massive debts. Hawthorn was supposed to have let Musso through to win that day.
TheDeuce said:
entropy said:
And just what is the Toto Method? Make your driver sweat over his contract by making them wait for a vote of no confidence every year?
I'm talking about the team wide effect it Toto's case. In the end, drivers are temporary assets and like all such assets need to be acquired and retained at the best value price and then the maximum return made from them. Building a team ethos and culture is more permanent and I think that's where the chiefs at Mercedes have really got it right - over and above, say, Ferrari - who on paper have all the resource of Mercedes yet continually show weaknesses in multiple areas. In a nutshell, I think guys like Toto are representative of the future of running a healthy business. I think guys like Frank and Head are representative of the past way.
Flavio Briatore got slagged off for being a clothing salesman who ran an F1 team and for all his faults hardly interfered with the technical side.
entropy said:
Hard to say. Toto arguably inherited from the house that Ross built. It's when you're underperforming and/or dealing with crap that tests your mettle. For instance how would Toto have dealt with McLaren and would he have been able to implement a new culture?
Flavio Briatore got slagged off for being a clothing salesman who ran an F1 team and for all his faults hardly interfered with the technical side.
I'm going off what I have heard Toto say about his methods, and how that tallies with the teams results and also what other team members say.Flavio Briatore got slagged off for being a clothing salesman who ran an F1 team and for all his faults hardly interfered with the technical side.
To me, when he speaks I have no problem believing he's earned complete control and respect of his team - I can't back that up with PH acceptable evidence... But it's my conclusion that he's a key part behind the most together team on the grid.
As for McLaren... I think he wouldn't have gone there. Part of the skill is knowing how to improve something, the other part is recognising a bus when you see one, and not chucking yourself beneath it! I'm not saying McLaren were impossible to save, they're clearly in the ascendancy right now, but it took a long time and Brawn were a safe bet to make fast progress.
In the end, he seems to understand people and business in equal measure. Quite a formidable combination given that often one precludes the other.
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