History of the current F1 teams
Discussion
hoffman66 said:
I think I recall an incident with someone putting a wishbone on the wrong way round ro maybe a tyre the wrong side or something forcing a retirement for an Onyx.
was a good car, one of the better back end cars of that time, certainly up there with Brabham and Leyton House and Ligier on their day, better than Eurobrun, Coloni, Osella certainly
His museum was scavenged by desperate mechanics for parts that would be of use. I also heard they had to weld up wishbones due to lack of spares! was a good car, one of the better back end cars of that time, certainly up there with Brabham and Leyton House and Ligier on their day, better than Eurobrun, Coloni, Osella certainly
coppice said:
cholo said:
Looks good, but Mclaren haven't always been just Mclaren.
They were partnered with Mercedes before they entered F1 with their own team and were known as Mclaren-Mercedes for a number of years.
What ?? Does the name ...err.... Bruce McLaren perhaps ring a tiny bell? And Mercedes ---- they were GP constructors pre both world wars and in the Fifties , After Le Mans 1955 , when a Mercedes killed 83 spectators , they did not return to high profile racing until Group C , originally under Sauber 'cover' . As far as F1 is concerned a cynic might argue that the engine bit is what was Ilmor and the rest is what was Brawn(Honda, BAR , Tyrrell) They were partnered with Mercedes before they entered F1 with their own team and were known as Mclaren-Mercedes for a number of years.
I think some background reading is needed on your part.
I meant that they were Mclaren-Mercedes, before Mercedes enetered with their own team (not mclaren)
Yes, i am not stupid enough to know that they didn't start off Mclaren-Mercedes and i know that Mercedes did have their own team a very, very long time ago, but obviously not in Modern F1.
cholo said:
Sorry, i think i didn't word it very well.
I meant that they were Mclaren-Mercedes, before Mercedes enetered with their own team (not mclaren)
Yes, i am not stupid enough to know that they didn't start off Mclaren-Mercedes and i know that Mercedes did have their own team a very, very long time ago, but obviously not in Modern F1.
When does "Modern F1" start for you then?I meant that they were Mclaren-Mercedes, before Mercedes enetered with their own team (not mclaren)
Yes, i am not stupid enough to know that they didn't start off Mclaren-Mercedes and i know that Mercedes did have their own team a very, very long time ago, but obviously not in Modern F1.
Mercedes have been a key player in Grand Prix racing on and off almost from the very start Ii.e. 1906). They were top of the class in the run up to World War 1. They were back at the top just before World War 2. They came back again in the mid 195os and were dominant again. And they are dominant now. They have an excellent track record in doing motor sport successfully - when they deign to get involved.
LeoSayer said:
MitchT said:
Toyota?
The OP said current teams.This is a great thread. I'm fascinated by what became of the people, premises and equipment from such teams. As I recall Toyota made a massive investment in F1 which just didn't work.
Eric Mc said:
When does "Modern F1" start for you then?
Mercedes have been a key player in Grand Prix racing on and off almost from the very start Ii.e. 1906). They were top of the class in the run up to World War 1. They were back at the top just before World War 2. They came back again in the mid 195os and were dominant again. And they are dominant now. They have an excellent track record in doing motor sport successfully - when they deign to get involved.
Mercedes pulled out of F1 GP racing in 1955 after one of their cars infamously ploughed through the crowd at Le Mans killing some 84 people. They dabbled successfully under the Sauber name in sports car racing but when they ran under the 'Mercedes' name in 1999, their cars famously flipped due to dodgy aero. Hardly an excellent track record.Mercedes have been a key player in Grand Prix racing on and off almost from the very start Ii.e. 1906). They were top of the class in the run up to World War 1. They were back at the top just before World War 2. They came back again in the mid 195os and were dominant again. And they are dominant now. They have an excellent track record in doing motor sport successfully - when they deign to get involved.
In pure F1, they needed a leg-up from Brawn before returning only 10 years ago, so again it's difficult to see them as a 'key player' despite their recent dominance.
LeoSayer said:
As I recall Toyota made a massive investment in F1 which just didn't work.
Spent over $1billion for a handful of podiums but little else.Rather than base themselves in the UK, they set up a brand new operation in Cologne near their rally HQ and subsequently found it difficult to attract sufficient people of sufficient skill willing to relocate so most of their key staff worked remotely.
Even so, the resources they had, should have seen them dominate the sport but never got anywhere close which shows that money is not the trigger to success many see it as.
The Surveyor said:
Eric Mc said:
When does "Modern F1" start for you then?
Mercedes have been a key player in Grand Prix racing on and off almost from the very start Ii.e. 1906). They were top of the class in the run up to World War 1. They were back at the top just before World War 2. They came back again in the mid 195os and were dominant again. And they are dominant now. They have an excellent track record in doing motor sport successfully - when they deign to get involved.
Mercedes pulled out of F1 GP racing in 1955 after one of their cars infamously ploughed through the crowd at Le Mans killing some 84 people. They dabbled successfully under the Sauber name in sports car racing but when they ran under the 'Mercedes' name in 1999, their cars famously flipped due to dodgy aero. Hardly an excellent track record.Mercedes have been a key player in Grand Prix racing on and off almost from the very start Ii.e. 1906). They were top of the class in the run up to World War 1. They were back at the top just before World War 2. They came back again in the mid 195os and were dominant again. And they are dominant now. They have an excellent track record in doing motor sport successfully - when they deign to get involved.
In pure F1, they needed a leg-up from Brawn before returning only 10 years ago, so again it's difficult to see them as a 'key player' despite their recent dominance.
The point is, if things aren't going right, they tend to stick at it until they get it right. The Le Mans disaster was the darkest moment in the history of motor sport so you can well understand their position at that time in deciding to pull out of competition. What also helped them decide to withdraw was that they had largely achieved what they had set out to do two years earlier.
When you consider the other big manufacturers who have left F1 with their tales between their legs on occasions. I can't remember Mercedes ever doing that.
When you consider the other big manufacturers who have left F1 with their tales between their legs on occasions. I can't remember Mercedes ever doing that.
StevieBee said:
Eric Mc said:
In many ways, the original "McLaren" (as set up by Bruce) came to an end when Ron Dennis and his MP4 company bought McLaren (which was in a financially weak state at that time) in 1980.
The original Williams team became Wolf when Frank was ousted from the company he had set up.Frank then went ahead and set up a new Williams team with substantial backing from Saudi Arabian interests - and the rest is history, as they say.
What constitutes a 'new team' is an interesting question. I guess the only legal determination of this would be the presence of the same Company Registration number regardless of owners. But as you mentioned previously, F1 teams are complex in how they are structured so may have had many companies that have operated the race team at different periods.The original Williams team became Wolf when Frank was ousted from the company he had set up.Frank then went ahead and set up a new Williams team with substantial backing from Saudi Arabian interests - and the rest is history, as they say.
From a fan's perspective I guess the interest lies with the historical lineage and linkages rather than the legal or technical. Frank Williams Racing (which was renamed Wolf) and Williams Grand Prix Engineering are two separate companies so the current incarnation can only be traced back to when that was formed ('76 or '77 I think) but as a fan, we recognise that Frank Williams has been a constant in the sport since the late 60s.
Bruce McLaren Motor Racing Limited was incorporated in September 1963 when Bruce McLaren wanted to enter the Australiasian Tasman series with a 2.5 litre car but Cooper, his employers, wanted to use their 1.5 litre F1 car. This company eventually entered F1 themselves at the Monaco GP of 1966. The company changed its name to Team McLaren Limited in December 1980 following the Ron Dennis/Project Four Racing takeover. Team McLaren Limited is still active and its main business is handling McLaren's merchandising relationships.
McLaren Racing Limited (the current F1 team) was incorporated in September 1980 as McLaren International Limited before changing its name in December 2003.
No, I totally agree that Mercedes withdrewing after 1955 was the right thing to do. What I was saying that given this is a thread about 'current F1 Teams' rather than Grand Prix history, none of the wins that Mercedes had during the original 'Silver Arrow' period of Mercedes and AutoUnion domination are really relevant.
From the time 'Formula One' took over the Grand Prix scene, Mercedes have done very little since the 1950's other than their dominance over the last decade. I'm a Mercedes fan and what they are doing at the moment is exemplar, but to say they have been a key player in the history of the sport just isn't right. As a F1 team, Mercedes are only 10 years old.
From the time 'Formula One' took over the Grand Prix scene, Mercedes have done very little since the 1950's other than their dominance over the last decade. I'm a Mercedes fan and what they are doing at the moment is exemplar, but to say they have been a key player in the history of the sport just isn't right. As a F1 team, Mercedes are only 10 years old.
The Surveyor said:
No, I totally agree that Mercedes withdrewing after 1955 was the right thing to do. What I was saying that given this is a thread about 'current F1 Teams' rather than Grand Prix history, none of the wins that Mercedes had during the original 'Silver Arrow' period of Mercedes and AutoUnion domination are really relevant.
From the time 'Formula One' took over the Grand Prix scene, Mercedes have done very little since the 1950's other than their dominance over the last decade. I'm a Mercedes fan and what they are doing at the moment is exemplar, but to say they have been a key player in the history of the sport just isn't right. As a F1 team, Mercedes are only 10 years old.
I think ALL of it is relevant. What Mercedes has carried through from all their involvements in motorsport over a century is a doggedness and determination to be at the top. That has been an absolute constant.From the time 'Formula One' took over the Grand Prix scene, Mercedes have done very little since the 1950's other than their dominance over the last decade. I'm a Mercedes fan and what they are doing at the moment is exemplar, but to say they have been a key player in the history of the sport just isn't right. As a F1 team, Mercedes are only 10 years old.
At some point I have no doubt that they will call a halt to their current involvement too when they decide they've done it all (again)- and will maybe come back sometime around 2050 - with an atomic-drive car
In the beginning was Grand Prix racing . In 1946 the FIA defined the concept of Formula One and applied it to cars which contested Grands Prix ; the first world champion was Farina in 1950.
Despite the fact that some folk in F1 and most of its fans think F1 began just before they started watching races on telly-in 1980 something , Grand Prix racing has been around for 113 years and counting .
Despite the fact that some folk in F1 and most of its fans think F1 began just before they started watching races on telly-in 1980 something , Grand Prix racing has been around for 113 years and counting .
Indeed it has and it is really sad that for many that they think it all began in 1950. Indeed, the current governing body and associated partners work on this basis. At least three whole generations of Grand Prix cars, teams, manufacturers and drivers covering the periods 1906 to 1914, 1920 to 1939 and 1946 to 1949, get forgotten because of this.
Eric Mc said:
Indeed it has and it is really sad that for many that they think it all began in 1950. Indeed, the current governing body and associated partners work on this basis. At least three whole generations of Grand Prix cars, teams, manufacturers and drivers covering the periods 1906 to 1914, 1920 to 1939 and 1946 to 1949, get forgotten because of this.
I don't think they're being forgotten, I'm simply pointing out that Mercedes has not been a key player through the history of F1. Yes, we know they were supremely influential during the pre and post war Grand Prix era, but if we're talking F1 and if we're talking about the current F1 teams, this Mercedes team is only 10 years old. Or to put it another way, they have competed in only some 230 of the 1,009 F1 Grand Prix of the 'modern era even if you include those races in the early 1950's entered by the old Mercedes team. How can a team who hasn't been present for over 3/4 of the F1 period be considered as a 'key player' in the history of F1?Eric Mc said:
Indeed it has and it is really sad that for many that they think it all began in 1950. Indeed, the current governing body and associated partners work on this basis. At least three whole generations of Grand Prix cars, teams, manufacturers and drivers covering the periods 1906 to 1914, 1920 to 1939 and 1946 to 1949, get forgotten because of this.
Is that really relevant though? "F1" began then. The fact it evolved and is rooted in past series doesn't mean F1 started before 1950.Like running races, existed before the 100m sprint. Some people may have raced over a 100m length before then, but the sport started when the current rules/formula did.
The Surveyor said:
Eric Mc said:
Indeed it has and it is really sad that for many that they think it all began in 1950. Indeed, the current governing body and associated partners work on this basis. At least three whole generations of Grand Prix cars, teams, manufacturers and drivers covering the periods 1906 to 1914, 1920 to 1939 and 1946 to 1949, get forgotten because of this.
I don't think they're being forgotten, I'm simply pointing out that Mercedes has not been a key player through the history of F1. Yes, we know they were supremely influential during the pre and post war Grand Prix era, but if we're talking F1 and if we're talking about the current F1 teams, this Mercedes team is only 10 years old. Or to put it another way, they have competed in only some 230 of the 1,009 F1 Grand Prix of the 'modern era even if you include those races in the early 1950's entered by the old Mercedes team. How can a team who hasn't been present for over 3/4 of the F1 period be considered as a 'key player' in the history of F1?It goes back to Tyrrell in fact .
And Formula 1 , in the literal and original sense , applies to the category of car which raced in Grands Prix . F1 is now almost universally , but mistakenly , applied to the category and not the car . Yet you do not become 'F1 champion ' but 'World Drivers' Champion '
Frankly , it all went downhill when it started being shown on TV to the masses ....
And Formula 1 , in the literal and original sense , applies to the category of car which raced in Grands Prix . F1 is now almost universally , but mistakenly , applied to the category and not the car . Yet you do not become 'F1 champion ' but 'World Drivers' Champion '
Frankly , it all went downhill when it started being shown on TV to the masses ....
LeoSayer said:
The OP said current teams.
This is a great thread. I'm fascinated by what became of the people, premises and equipment from such teams. As I recall Toyota made a massive investment in F1 which just didn't work.
Yes when I created the thread it was for the current F1 teams.This is a great thread. I'm fascinated by what became of the people, premises and equipment from such teams. As I recall Toyota made a massive investment in F1 which just didn't work.
Enjoying reading all the input from everyone regarding the history of the teams.
Don't some of the current F1 teams still pay to use the Toyota F1 wind tunnel now as it is known to be one of the best in the world?
I think some of the cars we see on the grid are designed with help from the Toyota wind tunnel.
I can actually see Toyota coming back into F1 soon as they have won Le Mans and will be enticed by the Hybrid engines.
Supersam83 said:
Yes when I created the thread it was for the current F1 teams.
Enjoying reading all the input from everyone regarding the history of the teams.
Don't some of the current F1 teams still pay to use the Toyota F1 wind tunnel now as it is known to be one of the best in the world?
I think some of the cars we see on the grid are designed with help from the Toyota wind tunnel.
I can actually see Toyota coming back into F1 soon as they have won Le Mans and will be enticed by the Hybrid engines.
Toyota or some other manufacturer - likely when Mercedes bow out. Assuming under the up-coming budget caps they can still find a supposedly 'surefire' way in that will turn their resources in to results.Enjoying reading all the input from everyone regarding the history of the teams.
Don't some of the current F1 teams still pay to use the Toyota F1 wind tunnel now as it is known to be one of the best in the world?
I think some of the cars we see on the grid are designed with help from the Toyota wind tunnel.
I can actually see Toyota coming back into F1 soon as they have won Le Mans and will be enticed by the Hybrid engines.
I'm not so sure it would be Toyota, simply because these days their range of cars is heavily weighted to 'green' which admittedly in theory meshes with the hybrid F1 philosophy, but I don't imagine the average Toyota customer is very likely to be a motorsport fan these days. They don't do very much on the performance motoring side in their road car range at all now, unlike in the 90's/early 00's.
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