History of the current F1 teams
Discussion
hoffman66 said:
I think I recall an incident with someone putting a wishbone on the wrong way round ro maybe a tyre the wrong side or something forcing a retirement for an Onyx.
Have you read Perry McCarthy's book? Andrea Moda sent him out to qualify - at Spa!! - knowingly with a bent steering rod.DanielSan said:
Zarco said:
Wouldn't be surprised if a few do that were formed in the 90s. Likely junior team members who would be hard to track down I imagine.
Racing Point still have a fair few people who worked for Jordan.cholo said:
Looks good, but Mclaren haven't always been just Mclaren.
They were partnered with Mercedes before they entered F1 with their own team and were known as Mclaren-Mercedes for a number of years.
What ?? Does the name ...err.... Bruce McLaren perhaps ring a tiny bell? And Mercedes ---- they were GP constructors pre both world wars and in the Fifties , After Le Mans 1955 , when a Mercedes killed 83 spectators , they did not return to high profile racing until Group C , originally under Sauber 'cover' . As far as F1 is concerned a cynic might argue that the engine bit is what was Ilmor and the rest is what was Brawn(Honda, BAR , Tyrrell) They were partnered with Mercedes before they entered F1 with their own team and were known as Mclaren-Mercedes for a number of years.
I think some background reading is needed on your part.
coppice said:
What ?? Does the name ...err.... Bruce McLaren perhaps ring a tiny bell? And Mercedes ---- they were GP constructors pre both world wars and in the Fifties , After Le Mans 1955 , when a Mercedes killed 83 spectators , they did not return to high profile racing until Group C , originally under Sauber 'cover' . As far as F1 is concerned a cynic might argue that the engine bit is what was Ilmor and the rest is what was Brawn(Honda, BAR , Tyrrell)
I think some background reading is needed on your part.
In many ways, the original "McLaren" (as set up by Bruce) came to an end when Ron Dennis and his MP4 company bought McLaren (which was in a financially weak state at that time) in 1980.I think some background reading is needed on your part.
The original Williams team became Wolf when Frank was ousted from the company he had set up.Frank then went ahead and set up a new Williams team with substantial backing from Saudi Arabian interests - and the rest is history, as they say.
StevieBee said:
Vaud said:
StevieBee said:
Wasn't Minardi born from the ashes of Onyx or some other back of the grid team? Or am I thinking of Andrea Moda?
Coloni > Andrea ModaOnyx Grand Prix was it's own team (and with a very colourful owner at one point)
Minardi was it's own team
And Stoddart then bought up the remains of Arrows when they went bump, and the final Minardi cars were essentially Arrows F1 cars.
thegreenhell said:
It's a slight tangent, but if you're looking at continuity through location rather than ownership, then the Leafield Technical Centre has hosted TWR-Jaguar (Group C), Arrows F1, Super Aguri F1, Lotus Racing and Caterham F1.
It's in a bit a state now though:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKRVIUwPgDM
sgtBerbatov said:
Minardi merged with Scuderia Italia in the late 80's/early 90's.
94/95 but Giuseppe left at the end of 95 to take Scud It back to touring cars. It wasn't a merger in the modern sense of the world. More a gents agreement that we both want to carry on doing F1 and if we do this we can, sgtBerbatov said:
And Stoddart then bought up the remains of Arrows when they went bump, and the final Minardi cars were essentially Arrows F1 cars.
Not quite right. Stoddy purchased the vehicle assets of Arrows, specifcally with regards the 2003 car which they then back to backed against the then current PS03. The Arrows wasn't really any quicker but was less reliable so that plan was abandoned but some good aero elements etc. were used in the design of the PS04/PS04B upspec. The PS02, PS03, PS04 and PS04B shared the same tubs (not design, the acutal same tubs with a mod at the end of 02 to accomodate a CK in place of that AT02 
) and the PS05 was a fresh design for 2005 but all were Minardi designed and produced, they shared little to nothing with the Arrows designs aside from the above aero inspiration and still ran the rapid cast Ti gearboxes until the end of 2005 vs the Arrows carbon designs or carbon reinforced Ti designed. The A23s that were left were eventually sold to Super Aguri and became their first F1 entry some years later using Honda back ends, electronics and hyds but retaining most of the Arrows tub, fuel system and front suspension.
jsf said:
Eric Mc said:
Altrhough Ken Tyrell didn't produce his own F1 car until 1970, he was entering grand prix cars under the Team Tyrell name from 1968 usually using Matra cars. Jackie Stewart was World Champion in 1969 driving a Tyrell team Matra.
Tyrrell.They used March 701's at the start of the 1970 season, i restored Jackie's car a few years ago, it had a lot of small detail changes compared to the other 701's. Zac Brown now owns the car.
poppopbangbang said:
Not quite right. Stoddy purchased the vehicle assets of Arrows, specifcally with regards the 2003 car which they then back to backed against the then current PS03. The Arrows wasn't really any quicker but was less reliable so that plan was abandoned but some good aero elements etc. were used in the design of the PS04/PS04B upspec. The PS02, PS03, PS04 and PS04B shared the same tubs (not design, the acutal same tubs with a mod at the end of 02 to accomodate a CK in place of that AT02 ) and the PS05 was a fresh design for 2005 but all were Minardi designed and produced, they shared little to nothing with the Arrows designs aside from the above aero inspiration and still ran the rapid cast Ti gearboxes until the end of 2005 vs the Arrows carbon designs or carbon reinforced Ti designed.
The A23s that were left were eventually sold to Super Aguri and became their first F1 entry some years later using Honda back ends, electronics and hyds but retaining most of the Arrows tub, fuel system and front suspension.
I love PH ) and the PS05 was a fresh design for 2005 but all were Minardi designed and produced, they shared little to nothing with the Arrows designs aside from the above aero inspiration and still ran the rapid cast Ti gearboxes until the end of 2005 vs the Arrows carbon designs or carbon reinforced Ti designed. The A23s that were left were eventually sold to Super Aguri and became their first F1 entry some years later using Honda back ends, electronics and hyds but retaining most of the Arrows tub, fuel system and front suspension.
As an aside, poppopbangbang, which is your favourite historical F1 car to work on?
poppopbangbang said:
Not quite right. Stoddy purchased the vehicle assets of Arrows, specifcally with regards the 2003 car which they then back to backed against the then current PS03. The Arrows wasn't really any quicker but was less reliable so that plan was abandoned but some good aero elements etc. were used in the design of the PS04/PS04B upspec. The PS02, PS03, PS04 and PS04B shared the same tubs (not design, the acutal same tubs with a mod at the end of 02 to accomodate a CK in place of that AT02 ) and the PS05 was a fresh design for 2005 but all were Minardi designed and produced, they shared little to nothing with the Arrows designs aside from the above aero inspiration and still ran the rapid cast Ti gearboxes until the end of 2005 vs the Arrows carbon designs or carbon reinforced Ti designed.
The A23s that were left were eventually sold to Super Aguri and became their first F1 entry some years later using Honda back ends, electronics and hyds but retaining most of the Arrows tub, fuel system and front suspension.
Did the original Super Aguri use a lot of the Arrows aero also? They looked very similar when someone put pics of the cars side by side, don't ask me to find that image it was a good few years ago and my Google skills aren't that sharp ) and the PS05 was a fresh design for 2005 but all were Minardi designed and produced, they shared little to nothing with the Arrows designs aside from the above aero inspiration and still ran the rapid cast Ti gearboxes until the end of 2005 vs the Arrows carbon designs or carbon reinforced Ti designed. The A23s that were left were eventually sold to Super Aguri and became their first F1 entry some years later using Honda back ends, electronics and hyds but retaining most of the Arrows tub, fuel system and front suspension.
Eric Mc said:
In many ways, the original "McLaren" (as set up by Bruce) came to an end when Ron Dennis and his MP4 company bought McLaren (which was in a financially weak state at that time) in 1980.
The original Williams team became Wolf when Frank was ousted from the company he had set up.Frank then went ahead and set up a new Williams team with substantial backing from Saudi Arabian interests - and the rest is history, as they say.
What constitutes a 'new team' is an interesting question. I guess the only legal determination of this would be the presence of the same Company Registration number regardless of owners. But as you mentioned previously, F1 teams are complex in how they are structured so may have had many companies that have operated the race team at different periods.The original Williams team became Wolf when Frank was ousted from the company he had set up.Frank then went ahead and set up a new Williams team with substantial backing from Saudi Arabian interests - and the rest is history, as they say.
From a fan's perspective I guess the interest lies with the historical lineage and linkages rather than the legal or technical. Frank Williams Racing (which was renamed Wolf) and Williams Grand Prix Engineering are two separate companies so the current incarnation can only be traced back to when that was formed ('76 or '77 I think) but as a fan, we recognise that Frank Williams has been a constant in the sport since the late 60s.
DanielSan said:
poppopbangbang said:
Not quite right. Stoddy purchased the vehicle assets of Arrows, specifcally with regards the 2003 car which they then back to backed against the then current PS03. The Arrows wasn't really any quicker but was less reliable so that plan was abandoned but some good aero elements etc. were used in the design of the PS04/PS04B upspec. The PS02, PS03, PS04 and PS04B shared the same tubs (not design, the acutal same tubs with a mod at the end of 02 to accomodate a CK in place of that AT02 ) and the PS05 was a fresh design for 2005 but all were Minardi designed and produced, they shared little to nothing with the Arrows designs aside from the above aero inspiration and still ran the rapid cast Ti gearboxes until the end of 2005 vs the Arrows carbon designs or carbon reinforced Ti designed.
The A23s that were left were eventually sold to Super Aguri and became their first F1 entry some years later using Honda back ends, electronics and hyds but retaining most of the Arrows tub, fuel system and front suspension.
Did the original Super Aguri use a lot of the Arrows aero also? They looked very similar when someone put pics of the cars side by side, don't ask me to find that image it was a good few years ago and my Google skills aren't that sharp ) and the PS05 was a fresh design for 2005 but all were Minardi designed and produced, they shared little to nothing with the Arrows designs aside from the above aero inspiration and still ran the rapid cast Ti gearboxes until the end of 2005 vs the Arrows carbon designs or carbon reinforced Ti designed. The A23s that were left were eventually sold to Super Aguri and became their first F1 entry some years later using Honda back ends, electronics and hyds but retaining most of the Arrows tub, fuel system and front suspension.
AFAIK, but as has been demonstrated above I've been known to be a bit inaccurate, I think the first SA came out with Arrows aero, but over the course of the season those were removed and replaced by aero designed by SA themselves.
Vaud said:
I love PH
As an aside, poppopbangbang, which is your favourite historical F1 car to work on?
Minardi M198..... because it's mine As an aside, poppopbangbang, which is your favourite historical F1 car to work on?
Aside from that the MVR01/02 Marussias are really nice, Minardi PS04B is lovely.... as is the M02, some of the Sauber stuff, C29/C30/C31 is beautiful but other parts are a bit too design driven to be nice to bolt. For me the best constructor from an engineer/bolters perspective is still Minardi, they're lovely to work on and have very little "PITA" factor to parts of them.
poppopbangbang said:
Aside from that the MVR01/02 Marussias are really nice, Minardi PS04B is lovely.... as is the M02, some of the Sauber stuff, C29/C30/C31 is beautiful but other parts are a bit too design driven to be nice to bolt. For me the best constructor from an engineer/bolters perspective is still Minardi, they're lovely to work on and have very little "PITA" factor to parts of them.
I've read your appreciation of the engineering excellence of the Minardis previously. Given this and that they were using similar or same engines that were powering cars further up the grid, what specifically was it about the cars that kept them largely at back. Was it purely aero? Supersam83 said:
I was just thinking the other day about the history of the current F1 teams and all the changes over the years.
Came up with this little list (feel free to correct if wrong):
Ferrari (1950)
McLaren (1966)
Tyrell (1970) -> BAR (1999) -> Honda (2006) -> Brawn GP (2009) -> Mercedes Benz (2010)
Williams (1977)
Toleman (1981) -> Benetton (1986) -> Renault F1 (2002) -> Lotus Renault GP (2011) -> Lotus F1 (2012) -> Renault F1 (2016)
Minardi (1985) -> Toro Rosso (2006)
Jordan GP (1991) -> Midland F1 (2006) -> Spyker F1 (2007) -> Force India (2008) -> Racing Point (2019)
Sauber (1993) -> BMW Sauber (2006) -> Sauber (2010) -> Alfa Romeo (2019)
Stewart GP (1997) -> Jaguar (2000) -> Red Bull (2005)
Haas (2016)
Quite interesting to see that Haas joins Ferrari, McLaren and Williams as the only teams who haven't bought out another team and started from scratch.
Toyota?Came up with this little list (feel free to correct if wrong):
Ferrari (1950)
McLaren (1966)
Tyrell (1970) -> BAR (1999) -> Honda (2006) -> Brawn GP (2009) -> Mercedes Benz (2010)
Williams (1977)
Toleman (1981) -> Benetton (1986) -> Renault F1 (2002) -> Lotus Renault GP (2011) -> Lotus F1 (2012) -> Renault F1 (2016)
Minardi (1985) -> Toro Rosso (2006)
Jordan GP (1991) -> Midland F1 (2006) -> Spyker F1 (2007) -> Force India (2008) -> Racing Point (2019)
Sauber (1993) -> BMW Sauber (2006) -> Sauber (2010) -> Alfa Romeo (2019)
Stewart GP (1997) -> Jaguar (2000) -> Red Bull (2005)
Haas (2016)
Quite interesting to see that Haas joins Ferrari, McLaren and Williams as the only teams who haven't bought out another team and started from scratch.
Evangelion said:
I seem to remember the original Team Lotus becoming Pacific Team Lotus in its last year, 1995.
The other Lotus was the one that became Caterham. Or was it Renault?
Complicated, innit!
The Team Lotus of 1994 was taken over by Pacific Racing that year and struggled on into 1995. However, even in the Chapman era of Lotus (1948 to 1982) what actually constituted "Lotus" was not always blindingly obvious.The other Lotus was the one that became Caterham. Or was it Renault?
Complicated, innit!
Evangelion said:
I seem to remember the original Team Lotus becoming Pacific Team Lotus in its last year, 1995.
The other Lotus was the one that became Caterham. Or was it Renault?
Complicated, innit!
Nope David Hunt thought he had bought the Lotus name and in a bid to keep the name going had a badge of sorts put on Wiggins old Reynards (Pacific).The other Lotus was the one that became Caterham. Or was it Renault?
Complicated, innit!
This all came to a head many years later when 2 teams tried to run under the Lotus name at that point it became so complicated I lost interest.
Williams PR department conveniently forget about the history pre 1977 when they did build there own cars.......... The Williams FW04 won Williams first F1 race with an Aussie but not Alan Jones. Brian Mcguire won a Shellsport F1 race in 1976 with one of the two he owned but lost his life in chassis 2 at Brands Hatch along with a Marshall.
In the late 90s Paul Stoddart bought a job lot of Tyrrell cars and equipment and more or less ran a works team in Euroboss with drivers including Mike Gascoyne, Bob Berridge and himself. A large number of the Tyrrells and Minardis are owned by a pleasant Dutch enthusiast.
In the late 90s Paul Stoddart bought a job lot of Tyrrell cars and equipment and more or less ran a works team in Euroboss with drivers including Mike Gascoyne, Bob Berridge and himself. A large number of the Tyrrells and Minardis are owned by a pleasant Dutch enthusiast.
Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff