Official Belgium GP thread 2019

Official Belgium GP thread 2019

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Discussion

eccles

10,869 posts

167 months

Tuesday 3rd September
quotequote all
kiseca said:
Never going to happen. Noone in a racing car approaches that corner thinking expecting they're going to crash, but they have a conflict of interests because their primary focus is to race, to get past the car in front, and keep in front of the car behind.

As long as that is their primary objective, and it has to be in a race, or they'll either lose to or be crashed into by the person for whom it is, they're never going to be safe enough to not crash in that corner.

Verstappen saw a gap, was trying to make up for lost ground on his start, he went for the gap, and by the time the possibility of it going wrong even entered his mind it was too late. That's not because it's Verstappen, it's because he's a person in a race, at a corner with a reputation for producing first lap crashes.

The difference between this corner and any other first lap corner on the circus isn't the drivers. It's the corner.
What a strange view you have.
Verstappen is an experienced F1 driver now, he's been there enough times he knows what goes on at your average first corner and this one is tighter than most. It's all about not putting yourself in that position in the first place, and all the cars in front of him will be closing the door as they're going round the corner, so it's a bit of a no brainer not to go up the inside.
He's got no one to blame but himself.

Derek Smith

33,968 posts

193 months

Tuesday 3rd September
quotequote all
eccles said:
kiseca said:
Never going to happen. Noone in a racing car approaches that corner thinking expecting they're going to crash, but they have a conflict of interests because their primary focus is to race, to get past the car in front, and keep in front of the car behind.

As long as that is their primary objective, and it has to be in a race, or they'll either lose to or be crashed into by the person for whom it is, they're never going to be safe enough to not crash in that corner.

Verstappen saw a gap, was trying to make up for lost ground on his start, he went for the gap, and by the time the possibility of it going wrong even entered his mind it was too late. That's not because it's Verstappen, it's because he's a person in a race, at a corner with a reputation for producing first lap crashes.

The difference between this corner and any other first lap corner on the circus isn't the drivers. It's the corner.
What a strange view you have.
Verstappen is an experienced F1 driver now, he's been there enough times he knows what goes on at your average first corner and this one is tighter than most. It's all about not putting yourself in that position in the first place, and all the cars in front of him will be closing the door as they're going round the corner, so it's a bit of a no brainer not to go up the inside.
He's got no one to blame but himself.
To be fair to Verstappen, he's improved his grasp on discretion over this season, and the latter bit of the last. I think some of the concentration on him this time, certainly from me, is that I expected better from him. He's a top class driver.

All drivers are going to have avoidable accidents, even taking into account the arguments against backing out of a confrontation, but La Source is not the place to try and make up from a fluffed start. I can't be the only one who saw what was going to happen in time to brake out of it. I was watching with a small group, and we were all of the same mind.




Jasandjules

63,016 posts

174 months

Tuesday 3rd September
quotequote all
It is not difficult for an F1 driver to appreciate that the first corner of SPA is going to be a small wedge reducing as the cars pass. Not sure why Max was unclear on it...

kiseca

7,550 posts

164 months

Tuesday 3rd September
quotequote all
eccles said:
kiseca said:
Never going to happen. Noone in a racing car approaches that corner thinking expecting they're going to crash, but they have a conflict of interests because their primary focus is to race, to get past the car in front, and keep in front of the car behind.

As long as that is their primary objective, and it has to be in a race, or they'll either lose to or be crashed into by the person for whom it is, they're never going to be safe enough to not crash in that corner.

Verstappen saw a gap, was trying to make up for lost ground on his start, he went for the gap, and by the time the possibility of it going wrong even entered his mind it was too late. That's not because it's Verstappen, it's because he's a person in a race, at a corner with a reputation for producing first lap crashes.

The difference between this corner and any other first lap corner on the circus isn't the drivers. It's the corner.
What a strange view you have.
Verstappen is an experienced F1 driver now, he's been there enough times he knows what goes on at your average first corner and this one is tighter than most. It's all about not putting yourself in that position in the first place, and all the cars in front of him will be closing the door as they're going round the corner, so it's a bit of a no brainer not to go up the inside.
He's got no one to blame but himself.
I'm not saying it wasn't Verstappen's fault. I'm saying that corner, on the first lap of the Belgian Grand Prix, is a popular spot for drivers to make errors of judgement and crash. Verstappen's got a bit of a rep, but at that corner he just joins many before him who have thought a move was on and been mistaken at great cost to their race. Max isn't the first and won't be the last.

What I'm saying is that you will never stop it being a crash hotspot while still expecting racing drivers to race. It's a corner where you either just cruise around it, and get passed by the half dozen drivers who choose to race, or you race to it and around it and take a higher than average risk of contact.

If you leave it up to the drivers to not crash there, nothing will change, because they're already trying not to crash. They aren't being stupid, they are racing, and making fast decisions based on their limited view of their surroundings, their experience on other tracks, with little chance to keep up with how the situation around them is changing, and within the limitations of their own capacities as humans. With primary goal on racing. All pumped up with adrenaline because it's the start of a grand prix. It's a corner where, more than most others, we see them lose situational awareness, make contact, crash, and often take more than one other car out with them.

Yes Max made a bad decision. Bad decisions will keep happening there unless something else changes. I don't mind, personally, I'm just saying that simply expecting the drivers to be more careful there is never going to happen.

Europa1

8,791 posts

133 months

Tuesday 3rd September
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
the first corner of SPA is
There's no need to shout.

Gary C

5,251 posts

124 months

Tuesday 3rd September
quotequote all
eccles said:
What a strange view you have.
Verstappen is an experienced F1 driver now, he's been there enough times he knows what goes on at your average first corner and this one is tighter than most. It's all about not putting yourself in that position in the first place, and all the cars in front of him will be closing the door as they're going round the corner, so it's a bit of a no brainer not to go up the inside.
He's got no one to blame but himself.
In this case, I think your right.

His instinct told him to stick it up the inside, and thats what makes him exciting, but it was a mistake.

ChevronB19

1,051 posts

108 months

Tuesday 3rd September
quotequote all
LaurasOtherHalf said:
ChevronB19 said:
If you’re on the Rotterdam to Hull boat I’m on it as well!
We are/were!
If your civic has a number plate similar to your username, we were right alongside you at passport control in Hull, along with a load of danish Mg’s...

eccles

10,869 posts

167 months

Tuesday 3rd September
quotequote all
kiseca said:
I'm just saying that simply expecting the drivers to be more careful there is never going to happen.
But this is exactly what experience brings, knowing where to push and knowing where to be cautious. Very rarely is the race won on the first corner, especially against a slower car.

Deesee

Original Poster:

2,741 posts

28 months

Tuesday 3rd September
quotequote all
Max Verstappen 3 yr challenge hehe

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/rhoX3a7

LaurasOtherHalf

15,383 posts

141 months

Tuesday 3rd September
quotequote all
ChevronB19 said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
ChevronB19 said:
If you’re on the Rotterdam to Hull boat I’m on it as well!
We are/were!
If your civic has a number plate similar to your username, we were right alongside you at passport control in Hull, along with a load of danish Mg’s...
That was us wink

130R

6,005 posts

151 months

Tuesday 3rd September
quotequote all
If you ever wondered what Max and Lando do in their off time, they are racing each other on iRacing right now: https://www.twitch.tv/landonorris

biggrin

Johnny Raydome

495 posts

50 months

Wednesday 4th September
quotequote all
GOATever said:
A coach hasn’t got the grip and downforce of a Grand Prix car.
'Broadsword to Danny Boy' whoosh 'Broadsword to Danny Boy' whoosh

'Go ahead Broadsword' whoosh

'Anyone seen a parrot?' whoosh




TobyTR

611 posts

91 months

Wednesday 4th September
quotequote all
regarding the F2 crash, i noticed precisely where the t-bone happened that 15 years ago it was all gravel trap...

If that tarmac run-off area was still gravel trap now, would it have had a different outcome - ie Hubert's car not bouncing as far back onto the track and the other car being slowed sufficiently enough or taking a different trajectory? In the pursuit of going forwards with safety, have the FIA actually gone backwards?

Byker28i

19,107 posts

162 months

Wednesday 4th September
quotequote all
Gary C said:
eccles said:
What a strange view you have.
Verstappen is an experienced F1 driver now, he's been there enough times he knows what goes on at your average first corner and this one is tighter than most. It's all about not putting yourself in that position in the first place, and all the cars in front of him will be closing the door as they're going round the corner, so it's a bit of a no brainer not to go up the inside.
He's got no one to blame but himself.
In this case, I think your right.

His instinct told him to stick it up the inside, and thats what makes him exciting, but it was a mistake.
He was trying to make up for the poor start

kiseca

7,550 posts

164 months

Wednesday 4th September
quotequote all
eccles said:
kiseca said:
I'm just saying that simply expecting the drivers to be more careful there is never going to happen.
But this is exactly what experience brings, knowing where to push and knowing where to be cautious. Very rarely is the race won on the first corner, especially against a slower car.
I agree, but it isn't the only factor. Max may well not make that same mistake again, but someone else definitely will, and it will happen more often at that corner than at others.

Max's experience has been that he's gone for that gap dozens of times in different corners and it's earned him a place or at least not ended his race. This time, he simply couldn't turn any tighter and it put him out of the race. In most other cases, when the door was closing, he had somewhere to go. A bit more room to move into, to give him some more braking time. Here it was bounce off Kimi, or hit a wall.

But yes, he has speed already, once experience has taught him enough ways to avoid shunting himself out of contention, he's going to be the standout driver of his generation, I think.

HighwayStar

2,503 posts

89 months

Wednesday 4th September
quotequote all
kiseca said:
eccles said:
kiseca said:
I'm just saying that simply expecting the drivers to be more careful there is never going to happen.
But this is exactly what experience brings, knowing where to push and knowing where to be cautious. Very rarely is the race won on the first corner, especially against a slower car.
I agree, but it isn't the only factor. Max may well not make that same mistake again, but someone else definitely will, and it will happen more often at that corner than at others.

Max's experience has been that he's gone for that gap dozens of times in different corners and it's earned him a place or at least not ended his race. This time, he simply couldn't turn any tighter and it put him out of the race. In most other cases, when the door was closing, he had somewhere to go. A bit more room to move into, to give him some more braking time. Here it was bounce off Kimi, or hit a wall.

But yes, he has speed already, once experience has taught him enough ways to avoid shunting himself out of contention, he's going to be the standout driver of his generation, I think.
The thing is... he's had the same accident at that corner before... 2016? He knew the possible outcome. He gambled. He lost.

kiseca

7,550 posts

164 months

Wednesday 4th September
quotequote all
HighwayStar said:
kiseca said:
eccles said:
kiseca said:
I'm just saying that simply expecting the drivers to be more careful there is never going to happen.
But this is exactly what experience brings, knowing where to push and knowing where to be cautious. Very rarely is the race won on the first corner, especially against a slower car.
I agree, but it isn't the only factor. Max may well not make that same mistake again, but someone else definitely will, and it will happen more often at that corner than at others.

Max's experience has been that he's gone for that gap dozens of times in different corners and it's earned him a place or at least not ended his race. This time, he simply couldn't turn any tighter and it put him out of the race. In most other cases, when the door was closing, he had somewhere to go. A bit more room to move into, to give him some more braking time. Here it was bounce off Kimi, or hit a wall.

But yes, he has speed already, once experience has taught him enough ways to avoid shunting himself out of contention, he's going to be the standout driver of his generation, I think.
The thing is... he's had the same accident at that corner before... 2016? He knew the possible outcome. He gambled. He lost.
Has he? OK in that case maybe he won't respond as quickly to experience as I was expecting hehe

HighwayStar

2,503 posts

89 months

Wednesday 4th September
quotequote all
kiseca said:
HighwayStar said:
kiseca said:
eccles said:
kiseca said:
I'm just saying that simply expecting the drivers to be more careful there is never going to happen.
But this is exactly what experience brings, knowing where to push and knowing where to be cautious. Very rarely is the race won on the first corner, especially against a slower car.
I agree, but it isn't the only factor. Max may well not make that same mistake again, but someone else definitely will, and it will happen more often at that corner than at others.

Max's experience has been that he's gone for that gap dozens of times in different corners and it's earned him a place or at least not ended his race. This time, he simply couldn't turn any tighter and it put him out of the race. In most other cases, when the door was closing, he had somewhere to go. A bit more room to move into, to give him some more braking time. Here it was bounce off Kimi, or hit a wall.

But yes, he has speed already, once experience has taught him enough ways to avoid shunting himself out of contention, he's going to be the standout driver of his generation, I think.
The thing is... he's had the same accident at that corner before... 2016? He knew the possible outcome. He gambled. He lost.
Has he? OK in that case maybe he won't respond as quickly to experience as I was expecting hehe
I already knew about it but from Deesee's post 6 or so posts back. Check it out. A real case of deja vu.

Deesee said:
Max Verstappen 3 yr challenge hehe

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/rhoX3a7
Edited by HighwayStar on Wednesday 4th September 11:42

FourWheelDrift

77,806 posts

229 months

Wednesday 4th September
quotequote all
130R said:
If you ever wondered what Max and Lando do in their off time, they are racing each other on iRacing right now: https://www.twitch.tv/landonorris

biggrin
I saw a few minutes of that, Max got disqualified for hitting another car rofl

Deesee

Original Poster:

2,741 posts

28 months

Wednesday 4th September
quotequote all
HighwayStar said:
kiseca said:
HighwayStar said:
kiseca said:
eccles said:
kiseca said:
I'm just saying that simply expecting the drivers to be more careful there is never going to happen.
But this is exactly what experience brings, knowing where to push and knowing where to be cautious. Very rarely is the race won on the first corner, especially against a slower car.
I agree, but it isn't the only factor. Max may well not make that same mistake again, but someone else definitely will, and it will happen more often at that corner than at others.

Max's experience has been that he's gone for that gap dozens of times in different corners and it's earned him a place or at least not ended his race. This time, he simply couldn't turn any tighter and it put him out of the race. In most other cases, when the door was closing, he had somewhere to go. A bit more room to move into, to give him some more braking time. Here it was bounce off Kimi, or hit a wall.

But yes, he has speed already, once experience has taught him enough ways to avoid shunting himself out of contention, he's going to be the standout driver of his generation, I think.
The thing is... he's had the same accident at that corner before... 2016? He knew the possible outcome. He gambled. He lost.
Has he? OK in that case maybe he won't respond as quickly to experience as I was expecting hehe
I already knew about it but from Deesee's post 6 or so posts back. Check it out. A real case of deja vu.

Deesee said:
Max Verstappen 3 yr challenge hehe

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/rhoX3a7
Edited by HighwayStar on Wednesday 4th September 11:42
Yeh, fancy Kimi not getting out of the way twice.... biglaugh