Official Belgium GP thread 2019

Official Belgium GP thread 2019

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kiseca

7,560 posts

164 months

Wednesday 4th September
quotequote all
Deesee said:
HighwayStar said:
kiseca said:
HighwayStar said:
kiseca said:
eccles said:
kiseca said:
I'm just saying that simply expecting the drivers to be more careful there is never going to happen.
But this is exactly what experience brings, knowing where to push and knowing where to be cautious. Very rarely is the race won on the first corner, especially against a slower car.
I agree, but it isn't the only factor. Max may well not make that same mistake again, but someone else definitely will, and it will happen more often at that corner than at others.

Max's experience has been that he's gone for that gap dozens of times in different corners and it's earned him a place or at least not ended his race. This time, he simply couldn't turn any tighter and it put him out of the race. In most other cases, when the door was closing, he had somewhere to go. A bit more room to move into, to give him some more braking time. Here it was bounce off Kimi, or hit a wall.

But yes, he has speed already, once experience has taught him enough ways to avoid shunting himself out of contention, he's going to be the standout driver of his generation, I think.
The thing is... he's had the same accident at that corner before... 2016? He knew the possible outcome. He gambled. He lost.
Has he? OK in that case maybe he won't respond as quickly to experience as I was expecting hehe
I already knew about it but from Deesee's post 6 or so posts back. Check it out. A real case of deja vu.

Deesee said:
Max Verstappen 3 yr challenge hehe

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/rhoX3a7
Edited by HighwayStar on Wednesday 4th September 11:42
Yeh, fancy Kimi not getting out of the way twice.... biglaugh
OK, I'm checking in to the "he's an idiot" camp now hehe

HighwayStar

2,503 posts

89 months

Wednesday 4th September
quotequote all
kiseca said:
Deesee said:
HighwayStar said:
kiseca said:
HighwayStar said:
kiseca said:
eccles said:
kiseca said:
I'm just saying that simply expecting the drivers to be more careful there is never going to happen.
But this is exactly what experience brings, knowing where to push and knowing where to be cautious. Very rarely is the race won on the first corner, especially against a slower car.
I agree, but it isn't the only factor. Max may well not make that same mistake again, but someone else definitely will, and it will happen more often at that corner than at others.

Max's experience has been that he's gone for that gap dozens of times in different corners and it's earned him a place or at least not ended his race. This time, he simply couldn't turn any tighter and it put him out of the race. In most other cases, when the door was closing, he had somewhere to go. A bit more room to move into, to give him some more braking time. Here it was bounce off Kimi, or hit a wall.

But yes, he has speed already, once experience has taught him enough ways to avoid shunting himself out of contention, he's going to be the standout driver of his generation, I think.
The thing is... he's had the same accident at that corner before... 2016? He knew the possible outcome. He gambled. He lost.
Has he? OK in that case maybe he won't respond as quickly to experience as I was expecting hehe
I already knew about it but from Deesee's post 6 or so posts back. Check it out. A real case of deja vu.

Deesee said:
Max Verstappen 3 yr challenge hehe

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/rhoX3a7
Edited by HighwayStar on Wednesday 4th September 11:42
Yeh, fancy Kimi not getting out of the way twice.... biglaugh
OK, I'm checking in to the "he's an idiot" camp now hehe
With that corner, it's actually at the corner there isn't anywhere that appears to be out the way when it's starts going wrong. If they are already through and clear it's fine. Tt's cars follow the drivers caught up in the crash. They can get tagged anywhere across the track. Cars bouncing off cars in all directions. I wonder what Max did in the years between the 2 incidents to make the corner. I'm at work so can look into that at the moment.

Deesee

Original Poster:

2,756 posts

28 months

Wednesday 4th September
quotequote all
HighwayStar said:
With that corner, it's actually at the corner there isn't anywhere that appears to be out the way when it's starts going wrong. If they are already through and clear it's fine. Tt's cars follow the drivers caught up in the crash. They can get tagged anywhere across the track. Cars bouncing off cars in all directions. I wonder what Max did in the years between the 2 incidents to make the corner. I'm at work so can look into that at the moment.
Similar starting position p5/p7 gave loads of space, and did not dive in on the curb...

HighwayStar

2,503 posts

89 months

Wednesday 4th September
quotequote all
Deesee said:
HighwayStar said:
With that corner, it's actually at the corner there isn't anywhere that appears to be out the way when it's starts going wrong. If they are already through and clear it's fine. Tt's cars follow the drivers caught up in the crash. They can get tagged anywhere across the track. Cars bouncing off cars in all directions. I wonder what Max did in the years between the 2 incidents to make the corner. I'm at work so can look into that at the moment.
Similar starting position p5/p7 gave loads of space, and did not dive in on the curb...
No excuse then eh....

JonChalk

2,128 posts

55 months

Wednesday 4th September
quotequote all
It’s either going to be more of a problem, or less of a problem for Vertappen in Italy, as he’ll be starting at the back due to engine changes penalties.

Less pressure at first corner.

Or

More targets to aim at.

Which do we think?

kiseca

7,560 posts

164 months

Wednesday 4th September
quotequote all
HighwayStar said:
With that corner, it's actually at the corner there isn't anywhere that appears to be out the way when it's starts going wrong. If they are already through and clear it's fine. Tt's cars follow the drivers caught up in the crash. They can get tagged anywhere across the track. Cars bouncing off cars in all directions. I wonder what Max did in the years between the 2 incidents to make the corner. I'm at work so can look into that at the moment.
that was kind of my original point. That corner, specifically, when things start going wrong they go wrong faster than the driver can react, or keep awareness. And contact often ends up taking out more than just the two cars immediately involved.

That corner and Verstappen are the perfect storm, it seems. But twice in 4 years is... well that's just being stubborn. Or stupid. Or delusional.

Monza first corner has been known to have incidents too, drivers get caught under braking, but at least there's a bit of room on both the outside and the inside if the driver can get the car there. Once you realise you're about to stack it, there is space to do something other than just try brake harder.


Derek Smith

33,987 posts

193 months

Wednesday 4th September
quotequote all
JonChalk said:
It’s either going to be more of a problem, or less of a problem for Vertappen in Italy, as he’ll be starting at the back due to engine changes penalties.

Less pressure at first corner.

Or

More targets to aim at.

Which do we think?
It might add to the excitement of the day. He'll need to make his way through the field and will anticipate a 5th place. It might not be easy. Could be fun if the lead is settled.


HighwayStar

2,503 posts

89 months

Wednesday 4th September
quotequote all
kiseca said:
HighwayStar said:
With that corner, it's actually at the corner there isn't anywhere that appears to be out the way when it's starts going wrong. If they are already through and clear it's fine. Tt's cars follow the drivers caught up in the crash. They can get tagged anywhere across the track. Cars bouncing off cars in all directions. I wonder what Max did in the years between the 2 incidents to make the corner. I'm at work so can look into that at the moment.
that was kind of my original point. That corner, specifically, when things start going wrong they go wrong faster than the driver can react, or keep awareness. And contact often ends up taking out more than just the two cars immediately involved.

That corner and Verstappen are the perfect storm, it seems. But twice in 4 years is... well that's just being stubborn. Or stupid. Or delusional.

Monza first corner has been known to have incidents too, drivers get caught under braking, but at least there's a bit of room on both the outside and the inside if the driver can get the car there. Once you realise you're about to stack it, there is space to do something other than just try brake harder.
Yep, the Monza corner was where Lewis put the move on Seb last year...Risky move but it paid off. Lewis knows when to twist and when to stick.
Max, oooh, oooh. I miiigh just get through that ga... ah! Sh!t... But saying that. I'm no fan of him but he's driven so well this season. He's getting there.

FourWheelDrift

77,834 posts

229 months

Wednesday 4th September
quotequote all
JonChalk said:
It’s either going to be more of a problem, or less of a problem for Vertappen in Italy, as he’ll be starting at the back due to engine changes penalties.

Less pressure at first corner.

Or

More targets to aim at.

Which do we think?
From Verstappen's point of view he would see it as more braking cushions.

kiseca

7,560 posts

164 months

Wednesday 4th September
quotequote all
HighwayStar said:
Yep, the Monza corner was where Lewis put the move on Seb last year...Risky move but it paid off. Lewis knows when to twist and when to stick.
Max, oooh, oooh. I miiigh just get through that ga... ah! Sh!t... But saying that. I'm no fan of him but he's driven so well this season. He's getting there.
I don't like him either, so it pains me a little to say I can't see him being anything less than the star driver of the new generation. Speed trumps everything else. He'll get better at finishing with experience, even if he's never as consistent as the best, but speed... experienced drivers rarely get faster, and he's got speed. To me, he's Senna without the charisma. And no, I didn't like Senna, either.

moffspeed

882 posts

152 months

Wednesday 4th September
quotequote all
Crafty planning by RBR. They've seen what Albon can do from the back-end of the grid at Spa - to further evaluate what ALB is made of they need a direct comparison with VER's potential performance in similar circumstances at a high speed circuit. So they "engineer" an engine change for Monza, very crafty.

OK, only joking - but if Verstappen's momentum prior to the summer break gave him some belief that he could end up runner-up in the WDC this year you would have to believe that this is now extinguished...

HighwayStar

2,503 posts

89 months

Wednesday 4th September
quotequote all
kiseca said:
HighwayStar said:
Yep, the Monza corner was where Lewis put the move on Seb last year...Risky move but it paid off. Lewis knows when to twist and when to stick.
Max, oooh, oooh. I miiigh just get through that ga... ah! Sh!t... But saying that. I'm no fan of him but he's driven so well this season. He's getting there.
I don't like him either, so it pains me a little to say I can't see him being anything less than the star driver of the new generation. Speed trumps everything else. He'll get better at finishing with experience, even if he's never as consistent as the best, but speed... experienced drivers rarely get faster, and he's got speed. To me, he's Senna without the charisma. And no, I didn't like Senna, either.
That’s the funny thing, Max I didn’t like when he bhing and moan like he was entitled. Just couldn’t admit he was wrong, hands up I made a mistake etc..
Senna, I had a lot more respect for. He was hard, he said what he was going to do or if asked he’d say what he did. For whatever reason I found his approach more acceptable than Schumacher’s where he couldn’t admit any wrongs. Senna was open and honest about how he went racing and I can accept that.
Max is a phenomenal talent, no doubt he’ll nail a WDC or more. It will be interesting to see if he keeps it together if he has to scrap for it.

KevinCamaroSS

8,301 posts

225 months

Wednesday 4th September
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
It might add to the excitement of the day. He'll need to make his way through the field and will anticipate a 5th place. It might not be easy. Could be fun if the lead is settled.
He will still have Albon to get past to make 5th, will we see a need for team orders?

LaurasOtherHalf

15,416 posts

141 months

Wednesday 4th September
quotequote all
KevinCamaroSS said:
Derek Smith said:
It might add to the excitement of the day. He'll need to make his way through the field and will anticipate a 5th place. It might not be easy. Could be fun if the lead is settled.
He will still have Albon to get past to make 5th, will we see a need for team orders?
You think they wouldn't implement them?

jsf

13,737 posts

181 months

Wednesday 4th September
quotequote all
GOATever said:
A coach hasn’t got the grip and downforce of a Grand Prix car. The Jackie Stewart era GP cars were far more reliant on mechanical grip, than the current high downforce and grip reliant cars. The modern cars can quite happily take the Masta kink, flat out. The driver needs the skill and experience ( and balls ) to attempt it though. Something that is gained ( through years of experience) by the top drivers, is the deliberate invocation of the ‘fight or flight’ reflex. If you’ve ever had an accident ( anything from falling off a ladder, to stacking a car ) you’ll know the feeling that time appears to slow down, as you’re having the accident. Only you get that though, anyone observing the accident sees it at full speed. The same is true of watching top drivers going through sections of tracks at seemingly impossible speeds. They don’t see the speeds that you do, because they are in ‘fight or flight mode’, and things appear to happening more slowly to them. It’s easier said than done, and it’s a large part of why the top drivers can do what they do, time and time again.
Its not fight or flight mode at all, if they were in that all hell would break loose.

They are in this is normal mode, brought on by conditioning of the experience. Some drivers get there quicker than others, but they are all well within their comfort zone whilst driving at the limit of the car.

gshughes

1,106 posts

200 months

Thursday 5th September
quotequote all
jsf said:
GOATever said:
A coach hasn’t got the grip and downforce of a Grand Prix car. The Jackie Stewart era GP cars were far more reliant on mechanical grip, than the current high downforce and grip reliant cars. The modern cars can quite happily take the Masta kink, flat out. The driver needs the skill and experience ( and balls ) to attempt it though. Something that is gained ( through years of experience) by the top drivers, is the deliberate invocation of the ‘fight or flight’ reflex. If you’ve ever had an accident ( anything from falling off a ladder, to stacking a car ) you’ll know the feeling that time appears to slow down, as you’re having the accident. Only you get that though, anyone observing the accident sees it at full speed. The same is true of watching top drivers going through sections of tracks at seemingly impossible speeds. They don’t see the speeds that you do, because they are in ‘fight or flight mode’, and things appear to happening more slowly to them. It’s easier said than done, and it’s a large part of why the top drivers can do what they do, time and time again.
Its not fight or flight mode at all, if they were in that all hell would break loose.

They are in this is normal mode, brought on by conditioning of the experience. Some drivers get there quicker than others, but they are all well within their comfort zone whilst driving at the limit of the car.
I think perhaps the mode you describe perhaps only kicks in on odd occasions rather than routinely, and has been described by those experiencing it as if they not consciously present, but rather outside observers of an exceptional performance . Senna's 1988 Monaco qualifying lap where he was more than 1 second faster than Prost and Damon Hills last 10 laps or so of the 1994 Japanese GP to overhaul and pass Schumacher in the wet are two that spring to mind.


Edited by gshughes on Thursday 5th September 16:37

Eric Mc

107,447 posts

210 months

Thursday 5th September
quotequote all
gshughes said:
I think perhaps the mode you describe only kicks in on odd occasions and has been described by those experiencing it as if they not consciously present, but rather outside observers of an exceptional performance . Senna's 1998 Monaco qualifying lap where he was more than 1 second faster than Prost and Damon Hills last 10 laps or so of the 1994 Japanese GP to overhaul and pass Schumacher in the wet are two that spring to mind.
A qualifying lap by Senna in 1998 would have been truly miraculous.

gshughes

1,106 posts

200 months

Thursday 5th September
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
A qualifying lap by Senna in 1998 would have been truly miraculous.
Doh - I guess you probably knew I meant to write 1988, but thanks for pointing it out smile I wish we did have 1998 Senna laps to look back on.

Eric Mc

107,447 posts

210 months

Thursday 5th September
quotequote all
Indeed.

I thought it was funny.

He'd have made a great pundit.

GOATever

1,189 posts

12 months

Thursday 5th September
quotequote all
gshughes said:
I think perhaps the mode you describe perhaps only kicks in on odd occasions rather than routinely, and has been described by those experiencing it as if they not consciously present, but rather outside observers of an exceptional performance . Senna's 1988 Monaco qualifying lap where he was more than 1 second faster than Prost and Damon Hills last 10 laps or so of the 1994 Japanese GP to overhaul and pass Schumacher in the wet are two that spring to mind.


Edited by gshughes on Thursday 5th September 16:37
Exactly right. The skill of the very best drivers is to be able to channel and control the reflex, turning a normally random, unwelcome negative experience into a controlled positive experience, and use it to their advantage. It’s sometimes described as riding a lightning bolt, as one might ride a horse.